Curse

Full Metal X · Sep 14, 2007, 02:08 AM // 02:08

By the crystal desert teaching you to pvp, I think he ment that the 3 missions you do all involve all the things you do in Halls. Thirsty River = Priest, Dunes of Despair = King of the hill(ish), Elona Reach = Relic running, then after you beat all of these you would go to old tomes and be able to HA right after doing all of these things.

Also about the Wisdom title or what ever I think he means you can get the gold items to id in both pve and pvp (HoH chest).

But anyways, what killed pvp was new imbalanced skills, nuff said.

DarkNecrid · Sep 14, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

The titles I listed give you a BONUS for reaching them so they arent "just for show".

Riotgear · Sep 14, 2007, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

You can have different roles and still have a working system. Just look at Quake Wars: Enemy Territory (demo came out couple of days ago). You have different roles, different things you need to do, but it plays fine with random teams without much communication. I have to admit the current gvgs don't really work for that, but that is something that can be changed for GW2. At least it will need some kind of area to make your team without having to be in a guild or knowing each other.

There are two factors in that: In QW:ET, and other games using similar systems (i.e. the Battlefield series, Team Fortress), members are for the most part 75% combatant and 25% whatever their kit/class has them do. Deaths are punished lightly and are frequent, making it often about simple strength in numbers. If the concern is the ability to provide what your team needs, then being another person holding a gun when they storm a point, or being another person standing their ground against an attack, is probably more of what they need than being the ammo or revive bitch.

The second is that bad team makeups is often self-correcting, if a team has too few medics, people can switch to medic. You are not constrained by a choice you made before you even joined the game. In GW, a team without a monk is going to be without a monk until at least the end of the match.

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2 bad chapters created pvp imbalance which helped lead to many pvpers (including some of the top guilds) to leave the game.

Factions wasn't particularly bad, the addition of GoH and Spirit Bond really changed the monk meta for the better, it was bad until spirit spam got nerfed, but I think the game was at a very good point when GWFC rolled around. The only really stupid thing left over from Factions that was a problem before post-Nightfall additions or changes is spirit spam.

Nightfall and the post-Nightfall buffs were a far bigger mess, largely because of the huge amount of offensive power creep, and the amount of degenerate button-mashing trash plaguing every format. Shadow Prison, Rampage as One, Searing Flames, Avatar of Melandru, Deadly Arts spam builds, Recall, and so on have combined to make PvP less fun than it ever was before Nightfall.

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I hate arguments like this. here's why:

You're missing the point. The point is that it's all non-intuitive. I'm not taking sides in the "rank discrimination" debate because the whole debate is stupid and both sides seriously need to find a fire and die in it.

The point is that the fact that there even is a debate shows that it is extremely non-obvious how to get into HA, and players WANT to do it, but something is stopping them.

To contrast it with other games, if you consider most shooters or RTSes, performing well on public servers or matches can get you tapped for organized guilds and ladder matches, and the opposition scales much more gradually. RTS ladders and ranking systems provide well-matched opposition at all levels of play. Shooters expose players to a broad range of opposition while generally not being ostracized to the same degree if they are new at it, because it's much easier to be useful in some way.

Have you ever played RA, AB, or Aspenwood and said "damn, this guy is pretty good, I'm going to see if he wants to help our HA team?" Probably not. That's essentially the problem and the reason this ridiculous "rank discrimination" debate exists: The only real proving grounds for talent relevant to HA and GvG are HA and GvG. I see that as a major design failure because it means players interested in some aspect of the game can't figure out how to pursue it, so instead they quit.

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FOTM means, easy to play, and easy to win. And that doesn't mean that is imbalanced.

Games are a test of skill. If less skill is easier to win with, then it's probably imbalanced. However, games are also about another thing: Fun. Even if you're judging the balance of something based on how well it scales with skill, I'm pretty sure that formats getting dominated by button-mashing trash makes things less-fun for most players, and on that note, should probably be adjusted.

twicky_kid · Sep 14, 2007, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Automated Tournaments is what's wrong with GW PvP.

Most player did jump faster than a burning sinking ship after the NF championship. It wasn't as bad as when they announced the removal of the ladder resets.

Ladder resets are what kept PvP going for so long. It was fun to run up the ladder every season and prove you were the best. Now all you have to do is watch obs mode, choose your build, and play once a week or so. AT also put a time restrain on players. I'm sorry but this is a game. I'll play on my own schedule not what schedule you decide for me. At least back then I could play on my own time and try to win $100,000. What is there to win now?

Without the ladder there is no competition. No one is going to remember what happened in yesterday's ATs. Everyone will remember who is sitting on top of the ladder. Who moved up the ladder. "Man that guild jumped 20 ranks yesterday we need to step our game up."

That stuff was healthy for PvP.

DreamRunner · Sep 14, 2007, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

The main problems with pvp are all in the past. 2 bad chapters created pvp imbalance which helped lead to many pvpers (including some of the top guilds) to leave the game. I'm not going to say that's the only reason, as it's only natural for people to get bored with this style of gameplay eventually. But it was certainly a factor, and it doesn't really matter what changes they decide to impliment at this point, it won't suddenly make the pvp community thrive again. Whether they figure out new and ingenius ways to balance pvp, or sweet title changes to acknowledge PvX leetness, is a moot point at this stage of GW's lifecycle.

The best they can hope for right now is to learn from their mistakes, make GW2 playable out of the box, and hopefully it will be successful enough to create and maintain a solid pvp community.

I wouldn't say that it was the chapters itself that was bad but anet's incompetence to skill balance the skills. Really... they should have given more attention towards the PvP meta when releasing new skills. Factions created the defensive meta with rits and was only later that did the communing line got nerfed, it took way to long and GvGs easily went to VoD.
Although it wasn't nearly as bad to Nightfall with D/Mo's, heroway, Grenth Derv's.

But I agree with you that the the only hope is with GW2. And really really want to believe that Anet will learn from their mistakes but I personally won't hold my breath.

erk · Sep 14, 2007, 05:48 AM // 05:48

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I stopped going into PvP entirely because I was tired of the childish behaviour in it, the increasing issues with "you have to run build X" and the elitist attitudes "rX only!" combine that with unsporting behavior and display of total lack of respect for other players and I'd had it with PvP.

I have noticed that issue come up a lot in GvG where the experienced players trying to find 8 people for a "grab 8 and go" match, turn to the pool of PvE/AB players in the guild to see if someone is interested in GvG'ing.

Usually the GvG organizer is an enthusiastic teenage, or very young adult male or two, with next to no people skills, and they handle it the wrong way. They push a skill bar at the new recruit and say "You must play this so we can have a balanced team", and of course half the time the bar is so alien, hard to play, and the whole experience is so unpleasant that it puts people off GvG, so they politely turn down future invites.

If it were me doing the organizing I would spell out the purpose of the bar and lets see what the recruit comes up with. eg. something like "We need a caster with skills that can block the enemy melee, help take some conditions off our two front line warriors, and can hard res." Then probably do a few scrims to demonstrate the role, then see if the recruit thinks the bar he has chosen fits in well, does he run out of energy etc.?

Once you are in a real match I wouldn't do childish things like insulting the opposing players in chat, or /rank, as people coming from the generally more social PvE background, might not understand/approve of that type of behavior.

One thing that pisses me off it when the GvG organizer makes up the bar based on observing the skills that the top 100 guilds are currently playing. They seldom ever try any of the builds themselves, but are perfectly happy to thrust them upon others. I've played enough different roles that it doesn't bother me any more, but I see newer players get a bit frustrated by not being able to stick to one build/role for a couple of dozen matches to get the hang of things.

A recent observation I have made in RA, is that you are more likely to be insulted in the American Districts than in the International Districts. There is also way more pointless team chatter. I tell guildies to turn off local chat in RA, and set their status to "Do not disturb" so they can enjoy the play a bit more.

The above are just some examples of how people can be put off some parts of PvP, there are lots more.

Vanquisher · Sep 14, 2007, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

The entire desert was meant to train you, show you what PvP modes do etc.

How? I mean, I definately didn't learn anything about PvP from PvE. I still haven't, to this day, seen some Siege Wurms hit the central altar in Halls.

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Facilitated the seperation that would cause the downfall of PvP cause no new guys coming in.

If there was seperation in the first place the game would have probably appealed to a much larger PvP oriented crowd.

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I direct you to the Lucky + Wisdom titles.

And why would I care? I figured this was about PvP, not some titles you get for identifying gold drops or standing afk for several hours.

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Sorry, you're still wrong here mate. That thing says nothing against my idea or for yours except the game gives you options. The game itself was still a PvE -> PvP experiance a long time ago. There was a time w/o Balthazar Faction, for example.

It says you can do what you want, and that you don't have to do x to play y. This never happened at release.

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If they are FOTM, they are imbalanced 99% of the time.

Incredibly untrue.

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*coughs* wasn't there when the game started.

I know.

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And TLP is The Last Pride. You know...one of the best guilds ever.

Maybe writing their name or tag would have been more beneficial, as TLP could stand for any number of things. Also, EvIL were not actually all that effective against spikes. Their Monks rarely stopped them, and I don't think either Monk ever carried Infuse during their time at the top.

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Understand that I am glad they are split too, but this isn't split in Guild Wars. Not even now. My suggestions are basically making it less split at this point cause splitting GW1 completely is too expensive and risque at this point in the game.

PvP has already gone down the gutter in Guild Wars. It cannot be revived unless the major competitive teams return, which they won't unless AT's are removed and the big tournaments come back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Factions wasn't particularly bad

Assassins and Ritualists say hi. I don't think Factions was anywhere near as bad as NF though. All the Passive defense that was flooded into the game is so absolutely terrible I still don't get it.

Cass · Sep 14, 2007, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

How? I mean, I definately didn't learn anything about PvP from PvE. I still haven't, to this day, seen some Siege Wurms hit the central altar in Halls.

I thought "Siege Wurm" was a pretty good description of many fire ele's in Halls.

Riotgear · Sep 14, 2007, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Assassins and Ritualists say hi.

Assassins didn't take long to get cut down to mostly just AOD gankers, which was fine. Ritualists took far longer, but after the Union/Shelter nerfs, I think the game was in a better state than it was before Factions.

Nightfall, on the other hand, has made a mess that has caused problems with practically every class, and that mess isn't even half-way to cleaned up.

Quote:

All the Passive defense that was flooded into the game is so absolutely terrible I still don't get it.

Not much of the passive defense is NEW except for LoD provided a better recovery mechanism and Paragons. I think the overly defensive meta is less due to Nightfall and more due to the shorter VOD timer and the fairly ridiculous offensive options out there (i.e. Mel's) that require more layers of defense to protect against. Paragons seriously need work though, the fact that they built an entire class around a buff system WITH NO EXISTING COUNTERS reeks of stupidity. Shouts need a serious rework to balance their lack of counters, or counters need to be folded in to existing mechanics.

suiraCLAW · Sep 14, 2007, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

In GW, a team without a monk is going to be without a monk until at least the end of the match.

Since you were commenting on more random arenas:

You could technically make a random arena (ala AB) where you can switch roles mid-game. That would be possible/balanced as long as you can only choose between a specific array of builds and as long as switching has a drawback (like getting teleported back to the res shrine, which would make some sense).

Back on topic:
I actually need to agree that playing PvE helps entering PvP: in PvE you learn:
- which skills are absolute trash
- that builds actually matter
- how to kite
- how to monk (boon-protting in the ring of fire wasn't so different as boon-protting in RA)
- how to predict wether a team will be succesfull or not
- etc.

TBH, I even believe that PvE learned me more about guild wars (and thus PvP) than RA.

Ka Tet · Sep 14, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

You're missing the point...The point is that the fact that there even is a debate shows that it is extremely non-obvious how to get into HA, and players WANT to do it, but something is stopping them.

No I didn't miss the point. I just wrote a long post on how to do just that. You cant wait for someone to hand you a magic ticket, if you want to get there you have to be a self-starter, work for it and take your lumps.
You also may need to lower your expectations. I forgot to add that at the beginning you have to expect to lose alot. Its not like PVE where the game is designed to allow you to win every time out. In each match someone loses and until you gain a large amount of skill as a player thats going to be you more often than not - and even good players have off nites.
To temper your expectations, here's a realistic look at what a "successful" above average team will do: When you first start playing you'll probably win underworld 1 time in 3 attempts - youre going to feel pretty crappy about a 33% winning percentage, but thats probably the amount of games you're going to win when you first start.
With a little progress you'll find yourself on teams that win in UW then lose on the next map giving you a 50% winning percentage, which is basically average although you'll probably be sitting there saying my team still sucks.
You make a little more progress and find your teams winning your first 2 matches then losing your third you've won 66% that means that youre playing better than the average player, have doubled your winning percentage from when youve started and youre technically on a successful team, even though you're not winning halls and probably still consider your team to be not that great. However, this is what a better than average team will do.
At this point you either need to lower your expectations or start getting serious about your playing, b/c as hard as it is to go from below average to above average, its even harder to go from above average to good.

GLHF all

Vanquisher · Sep 14, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

I actually need to agree that playing PvE helps entering PvP: in PvE you learn:
- which skills are absolute trash
- that builds actually matter
- how to kite
- how to monk (boon-protting in the ring of fire wasn't so different as boon-protting in RA)
- how to predict wether a team will be succesfull or not

I disagree with most of this. The majority of people run trash Builds in PvE, RA, and ABs. They have no idea on Builds that matter, and won't kite, probably don't even know the meaning of the word prekite, and I don't think PvE really teachers you how to Monk effectively, or play any class effectively.

audioaxes · Sep 14, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

to the best of my memory, i seen noticeable pvp player exodus a few weeks after Factions was released
i think its evident the new chapters themselves contributed to less people playing:
A) some dont feel like buying the expansion ($40 is way too much for as far as pvp players is just a skills unlock expansion) but dont want to be at a competitive disadvantage without the new skills so they quit
B) some buy the expansion and feel underwhelmed and then quit

not to mention when people leave, its hard for new people to replace them because many are too faint of heart to take their lumps and build up as a complete noob into higher pvp competition, and you cant really blame the new guys as it got MUCH harder for newbs to get established than what it was earlier
also as many start leaving or slack off of playing as much, the decreased ethusiasum gets very contagious

that is what happened to me, i bought Factions, felt a bit disappointed but kept playing pvp. And as i kept playing through the months i seen the amount playing pvp dwindle down to the point i felt GW pvp was a sinking ship which killed my ethusiasum so i didnt buy nightfall and uninstalled the game a few weeks after nightfall release

Riotgear · Sep 14, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

You cant wait for someone to hand you a magic ticket, if you want to get there you have to be a self-starter, work for it and take your lumps.

EDIT -- Rewrite.

The difficulty is only part of it, and even that's just indirect because it forces a low tolerance for bad players and makes it hard to get a group.

The other MAJOR part is perception. There are a lot of players that want to get in, are willing to learn what they need to, but don't know how because the only way they see to get in is rank. Even without rank, the problem would probably still exist mostly in its full intensity, because a lot of newbies would get dropped shortly after they ping their skillbar.

This would be sort of like installing Counter-Strike, clicking the server browser, and seeing every single server password-locked with "No noobs allowed" in the description. Being forced to sift through websites, register forum accounts, get rank discrimination whine posts insta-locked, etc. is one of several contributors to a harsh barrier to entry. If you really want to see the PvP playerbase grow, then there needs to be less bullshit in the way, and a place for them to learn that doesn't immediately pit them against the best opposition the game has to offer.

Quote:

They have no idea on Builds that matter, and won't kite, probably don't even know the meaning of the word prekite

Oh it's much worse than that, quite a few players see kiting as running away, which makes you a noob.

wuzzman · Sep 14, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

EDIT -- Rewrite.

The difficulty is only part of it, and even that's just indirect because it forces a low tolerance for bad players and makes it hard to get a group.

The other MAJOR part is perception. There are a lot of players that want to get in, are willing to learn what they need to, but don't know how because the only way they see to get in is rank. Even without rank, the problem would probably still exist mostly in its full intensity, because a lot of newbies would get dropped shortly after they ping their skillbar.

This would be sort of like installing Counter-Strike, clicking the server browser, and seeing every single server password-locked with "No noobs allowed" in the description. Being forced to sift through websites, register forum accounts, get rank discrimination whine posts insta-locked, etc. is one of several contributors to a harsh barrier to entry. If you really want to see the PvP playerbase grow, then there needs to be less bullshit in the way, and a place for them to learn that doesn't immediately pit them against the best opposition the game has to offer.

this is why I say, even retarded games know to seperate their game based on rank if they have a rank system.

Riotgear · Sep 14, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

I actually need to agree that playing PvE helps entering PvP: in PvE you learn:
- which skills are absolute trash
- that builds actually matter
- how to kite
- how to monk (boon-protting in the ring of fire wasn't so different as boon-protting in RA)
- how to predict wether a team will be succesfull or not
- etc.

PvE consists mainly of priority-lacking high-damage suicidal cannon-fodder with tons of armor. This means that armor-ignoring DDs, block stances, powerhealing, and keeping PS on everyone constantly are king. Mesmers suck because the best way to disrupt a mob is to flood it with damage until it dies. Skills like Life Bond can be abused to no end because the AI has no idea how to prioritize. Encounters are predictable and can be hard-countered by bringing builds specifically designed to beat them.

If you want to see the skills PvE teaches you for PvP, go to AB or RA and see what the typical warrior is running.

Shmanka · Sep 15, 2007, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

The devs are slowly learning to balance the game. It's not that difficult really, they just need to listen to us.

So why don't they?

In all honesty, if I had 5 minutes with this game and its state of balance. I actually trust myself and a decent amount of players that could make things more enjoyable. That's a bad thing, I helped correct and find glitches and contributed alot when Wc3 was around, so I have had my fair share of experience when submitting information and opinions on specific game mechanic issues.

This though you have alot correct, maybe worded poorly... except the .25 second with ease thing...

suiraCLAW · Sep 15, 2007, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

If you want to see the skills PvE teaches you for PvP, go to AB or RA and see what the typical warrior is running.

So, without PvE, those typical warriors would be way better? If all those newbs went straight to RA, they would use a better skill set/better tactics?

Anway: let me elaborate that statement:
- which skills are absolute trash
Certainly, by simply comparing the effects of similar skills I could easily learn what skills where absolute trash and which ones where better in comparison. For example, I remember myself - back in ascalon - learning mending, it took me 10 minutes to find out that it drained my energy way too much for the few times it was actually helpful, especially in comparison to life siphon.

- that builds actually matter
Another example: the thunderhead keep mission: I spent "hours" finding the "perfect" group to finaly beat that damn mission. In fact, I can remember other people doing exactly the same.

- how to kite
It isn't that hard to "figure" out that if you run to your monks, the monsters would target the "tank" instead.

- how to monk (boon-protting in the ring of fire wasn't so different as boon-protting in RA)
At least I knew what energy mangement was (I used mantra of recall)...

- how to predict wether a team will be succesfull or not
See THK

moko · Sep 15, 2007, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

So, without PvE, those typical warriors would be way better? If all those newbs went straight to RA, they would use a better skill set/better tactics?

Anway: let me elaborate that statement:
- which skills are absolute trash
Certainly, by simply comparing the effects of similar skills I could easily learn what skills where absolute trash and which ones where better in comparison. For example, I remember myself - back in ascalon - learning mending, it took me 10 minutes to find out that it drained my energy way too much for the few times it was actually helpful, especially in comparison to life siphon.

considering how many absolute SHIT builds i see from players actually playing for 2+ years using utter trash skills; you are wrong. PvE does not *require* you to have a good bar, PvP does, if they however realise they use bad skills, they're one of few that actually want to get better and just not farm.

Quote:

- that builds actually matter
Another example: the thunderhead keep mission: I spent "hours" finding the "perfect" group to finaly beat that damn mission. In fact, I can remember other people doing exactly the same.

builds do NOT matter in Pve; except for maybe 1-2 places, sorry.

Quote:

- how to kite
It isn't that hard to "figure" out that if you run to your monks, the monsters would target the "tank" instead.

if you would go to AB and kite for one game, you will immediately get thousands of people calling you runner because they PvE - what did you say? NO, they DO NOT KITE! they really don't. too often i've seen mobs on my monk who just starts casting heal party.

Quote:

- how to monk (boon-protting in the ring of fire wasn't so different as boon-protting in RA)

PvE monks really only run full healing bars without hex removal nor condition removal. i would certainly not consider this learning how to monk. just because you ran a boon prot doesn't mean others did it also. i think you are using yourself as example too much here; there's the other 90% that are the absolute opposite.

=> PvE does not teach you anything if you are the average gamer.
At least I knew what energy mangement was (I used mantra of recall)...

Quote:

- how to predict wether a team will be succesfull or not
See THK

oh forgot this one; since when did PvE players ever care about this? they just do something until they succeed or use "cookie cutters". when using CC, they think they will finish 100% while they still fail most of the time.

suiraCLAW · Sep 15, 2007, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

if they however realise they use bad skills, they're one of few that actually want to get better and just not farm.

People that don't realise what's bad and are too dump to improve their playstyle shouldn't start playing PvP anyway.

Hyphothetical thought: sending all new people to the PvP training arenas instead of sending them to PvE wouldn't increase the amount of good players.

Of course, PvE doesn't brainstorm you for PvP. But it does learn the basics: the skills, energy mangement, etc.