Curse

DarkNecrid · Sep 13, 2007, 11:57 AM // 11:57

"The players make or break PvP"

This is true...and its going to break PvP if there isn't new guys coming in.

@ Ado:
So true.

Malice Black · Sep 13, 2007, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ado

Lemme summerize what went wrong in PvP

oldskoolers: average age 20 years old, looking for difficulty, creativity and challenge.
current players: average age 14 years old, famefarmers, looking for easiest way to win.

note: I'm not trolling, really, I'm not.

Valid point IMO

I find people back in the day were more grown up then the players of today.

Vanquisher · Sep 13, 2007, 12:54 PM // 12:54

You are so incredibly wrong on so many levels with your original post I can't even be bothered to try and respond in a more constructive manner at this time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

I played PvE long ago, at the release of Guild Wars, knowing full well the PvE was just to train you for the PvP.

Anyone who seriously believes that PvE trains anyone for PvP is wrong. To even suggest that it does seems incomprehendable for me. You're equating, pretty much c+spacing against an AI that will never change based on what you do, to fighting against another person who can easily think about what you're running, changing their style of play to counter yours, react to changes in your play, and generally be dynamic in whatever they do.

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Then they introduced Balthazar Faction in the June 29th, 2005 update, which would begin the seperation of Player versus Environment and Player versus Player. No longer did you need to PvE to PvP, oh no...now you could play PvP...to play PvP.

What in God's name is wrong with that? When you're marketing a game as a competitive one, and saying that skill is meant to be a more determining factor than the time you spend playing, why are you forcing people to play a side of it in which they have limitted interest, if any at all. Do you even know how many potentially high skilled players quit the game because of that? Are you aware of the massive disappointment that it was? Do you not recognise the problems that come from forcing a player to grind to play the competitive side of the game?

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The problem with the title system is, there's no title that rewards you for doing a little bit of both. It's one or the other. There is no hybrid title.

There are no titles that mean anything because you can just grind them out. The only time a title meant anything was when the Champion Title was tied to the 1500 rating requirement, and there were regular ladder resets. It actually required you to do well, and be able to beat good teams in more than a 1-off situation to get them. Even then it didn't really mean much, but a hell of a lot more than it does now. All titles do is show the experience in one area of the game.

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I was having fun playing in the minigames, and fighting tough enemy's using builds obviously inspired by famous PvP builds.

To be honest... Charr have always run Ignite Arrows/Dual Shot, as have Avicara. Titans ran Shadow Strike, White Mantle ran IWAY. It's not really important, but I figured I may as well even show why you're wrong in thinking such an irrelevant point.

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I'm a hybrid, I am what Guild Wars intended players to be.

Wrong. This game was intended for various people. There are numerous press releases before release, and before beta testing. Here's a little extract for you.

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As far as gameplay, if you like a solo game, you’ll find quests intended just for you. If you’re more of a small-team player, or the kind who likes to join up with a casual group on the fly, you can do so in Guild Wars. And if you favor the idea of the massive quests and long-term challenges – conquering the world, planting your guild flag on the castle – you have those opportunities as well.

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FOTM builds HAVE become too dominant, and encourge unfun ways of play. They have for a long time.

The only problem with FotM Builds is when they are imbalanced. Generally those kind of builds combine two factors - the ease of playing, and the reward. Although the reward should, ideally speaking, be less likely to achieve than using a build that takes far more skill to play effectively, this won't be the case in arenas such as Tombs, or Heroes Ascent or whatever it's called now. The reasoning is because of the grinding for fame, where 90% of players will play such Builds and rather than advance in skill, and gain more rewards for it, they're happy to have the quick matches, quick result kind of game. The same could be seen in GvG in the last days of important qualification seasons - SBRI, Dual/Triple Smite, etc. all had many people playing them, because there are certain imbalances and mechanics that you can tweak in your favour to give you the best chance of winning (map choice being the main one). Only some of those things include imbalanced skills - IWAY and Tiger's Fury stacking, for instance. Dual Orders stacking for Ranger Spike/IWAY, Soul Barbs triggering on every reapplication of Recurring Insecurity.

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However, with this system in place, new players could be PvE or PvP only! Which started tensions between the two...and eventually elitism.

I'm pretty damn tired of this elitism bullshit. Firstly, it's there in pretty much every single online game where there is any competition. Secondly, it's not nearly what people say it is. The problem is, if I'm being honest, that people are so self serving they can not ever accept any form of criticism, or the simple fact that they're wrong, or the obvious fact that if they don't know about something, they should not really be talking about it unless it's asking questions. Having no experience in something and trying to talk like you know what's going on, what the problems are, etc. is so incredibly frustrating, not only because people refuse to be corrected, but because the clueless people may actually, unfortunate as it is, be listened to, which would only serve to plunge the game into a worse state of turmoil.

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ArenaNet changed the focus and purpose of the game sometime after Prophecies to where it would be a PvE only or PvP only game. This is VERY apparent. There is little support or room for a Hybrid person in this game anymore. (i mean a person who is hardcore in both, not one who PvE's and dabbles in PvP and vice versa)

If it was that way in the first place, it would have been better. Requiring people to grind to play PvP was a terrible, terrible idea. If you don't understand that you're an idiot.

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No title in the game is Hybrid player based.

Who cares about titles?

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And the final thing, really? EOTN added nothing to PvP except for 100 skills, about 70 of which don't innovate or improve or make new builds, and the other 30 just replace existing skills to improve the current builds. What a waste.

One of the biggest problems with PvP is the lack of balance that has come as a result of the addition of several hundred skills and several classes. Mechanics such as Shadowstepping have lowered the standards of many aspects that were required before. The addition of more shouts, of Weapon spells, etc. has served to make the game far less fun.

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Adding new guild halls with some innovative strategy based on EotN Areas (dungeon Guild Halls FTW), new RA/TA arenas based on EOTN (dungeon arenas FTW), skills that actually DO something new and exciting, a new game mode (I still want PvP Polymock ok :< ) would of at least made the expansion not seem so...one sided.

Polymock is terrible.
Existing Guild Halls need to be balanced before there should be any contemplation of adding more.

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Yeah, balance is a problem, but thats not the heart of the issue.

Balance, (un)fun Seasons, lack of world championships, lack of third party support, lack of incentives to play, poor mechanics, addition of classes/skills, map imbalance, etc.

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Izzy could make the most balanced game ever and it wouldn't bring everyone back (TLP....iQ....) because balance isn't the big issue...the way the game is built is, to be honest. All those guys who left? They were top guilds. They were the best of the best, they'd Infuse in .25 seconds of a huge spike nearly killing someone, they'd interrupt .25 cast spells with ease.

TLP? And those numbers are ridiculously wrong.

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Here's the thing though, I'm sure most of the people now-and-days would lable those guys as "PvPers". They were not. They were hybrids. They played the game when it was released, they worked thru PvE with all 6 professions and beat it with all 6 professions and unlocked every goddamn item and skill the hard and right way. They learned how PvP would run thru PvE, they poured their heart and soul into PvE and got rewarded back in PvP.

?
iQ Tombed at the start of the game, fyi. There were a huge number of several hour holds, and there were like 3 groups that dominated Halls in the early stages of the game (BE, iQ, and that Korean guy with the super long name's team). People PvE'ed to unlock stuff, because there wasn't the option of unlocking through Faction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tijger

The reason for that has nothing to do with Arenanet but everything to do with the most commonly found attitude of PvP players imho.

I stopped going into PvP entirely because I was tired of the childish behaviour in it, the increasing issues with "you have to run build X" and the elitist attitudes "rX only!" combine that with unsporting behavior and display of total lack of respect for other players and I'd had it with PvP.

Every damn time we get a topic like this the one thing that is ALWAYS ignored is the points I make above, but no, no, its all Anet's fault!
Well, guess what, its not, look around you in PvP, look at the attitudes, the language and the ranking/dancing when people win.

I don't think you're understanding the team element of this game. Running 8 people with individual builds that don't compliment each other is just asking to lose. Asking for someone with a degree of experience is not being elitist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by D E C E P T I V E

Lots of people see alot of problems with the current PvP world excpet for the small minority of hardcore pro pvpers that remain. When people point out problems or offer insight they are the first to attack it, yet they seem to be complaining about PvP all the time. Why is that? Because their is no problem or they only want their solution or because they fear change. Change is needed if GW2 is going to be a better game. Im not really agreeing or disagreeing with anything in this post, only adding my own observation.

Skill balance after skill balance has not fixed the PvPgame and it wont fix a game that by its design cant be 100% balanced. This is not saying that the doesnt need to be relatively balanced and that skill balances are not needed whatsoever, just saying there may be other problems that need to be looked at. There was a thread similar to this that had alot of good information in it that was closed if you can sift through all the PvP vs PvE crap that I hope the developers get a chance to see. It was titled PvP is Slowly Dying.

Mainly because the offerings of insight, as you call it, are often terrible ideas that would only serve to make the problems more obvious, or make the game worse. Such examples are your thoughts that balance does not matter anywhere near as much as people make it out to, and hinting that Guild Wars should be more about rock-paper-scissors than it currently is.

lyra_song · Sep 13, 2007, 01:03 PM // 13:03

My guild's founders were heavily into TA and thats that I was heavily into my first few months of GW. I don't do Tombs...i mean...HA anymore (Im only Rank 1), but when i used to, i played my mesmer cause she was so much fun (back when IWAY was the most common build youd run into)

I stopped PvPing heavily because it's just not any fun lately. The builds im expected to run are boring...the "competitors" are jackasses...theres no way to just have fun.

People either:
a) Takes it too frigging seriously
b) Is too immature to handle winning/losing properly

Even if the game were perfectly balanced, if all the competitions are not fun at all, theres zero incentive for any new players to wanna join.

The only pvp i play now is Dragon Arena.

Cass · Sep 13, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

My guild's founders were heavily into TA and thats that I was heavily into my first few months of GW. I don't do Tombs...i mean...HA anymore (Im only Rank 1), but when i used to, i played my mesmer cause she was so much fun (back when IWAY was the most common build youd run into)

I stopped PvPing heavily because it's just not any fun lately. The builds im expected to run are boring...the "competitors" are jackasses...theres no way to just have fun.

With all due respect, but given your experience in Tombs/HA, your opinion on it being fun/unfun lately is largely irrelevant. I'm not trying to flame you, I just want to point out that with the extremely limited experience that you've had there you cannot come to an informed opinion on its state. I actually commed you on stating your rank, I wish more people would do that when they comment on Tombs/HA.

I've played against a lot of IWAY teams and I still play HA today. The player's attitude has not changed. Flaming? Abuse? Always been there. In fact, IWAY teams used to have THE highest chance by far of being a bunch of flaming morons. They'd rage, flame and shout off regardless of whether they lost or won. Regardless of whether the match was just starting or already over lol. This sort of attitude is still here today, unchanged. You'll find it with those teams that run the most brainless stuff that's still 'effective' today (thumpers, period).

One may wonder why this is the case, and this relates to the OP actually. Players in braindead builds are so unpleasant because they don't play PvP for PvP. They play it for titles (hero/glad/champ whatever). Playing long long hours for any of these titles is something they actually dread. They strive to reduce the time and effort spent as much as possible (hence the preference for quick brainless shit that wins). They are bored while playing, and flaming is a distraction for them.

So if this attitude is the problem, then I would agree with the sentiment others have also posted: titles have encouraged bad attitudes. At the same time one should recognize that without titles, many people would have quit PvP altogether simply because rewards are expected in a game like GW. And a title is still a reward, especially if earned by playing real builds.

lacasner · Sep 13, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

No "real updates" is what is killing it tbh.

But we aren't paying a monthly fee, so what can you do.

Riotgear · Sep 13, 2007, 03:13 PM // 15:13

There are two things wrong with PvP:

- The complexity of the game and the skill level of current players makes for a harsh barrier to entry, which frustrates new players.

- The introduction or buffing of skills that create overly-effective easy-to-play gimmicks that manage to beat better players, which frustrates old players.

The first is largely a product of the complete lack of transition between idiotfests like RA/AB/CM and more organized fields of play. The second is a product of slow skill balancing and Izzy's attachment to the concept behind certain ideas that's preventing him from actually balancing them (i.e. Melandru).

wuzzman · Sep 13, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

No new players becoming pvp'ers +
No pvp'ers especially the top ones caring. +
Anet allowing shit like RA to remain as a pvp arena and handling HA poorly (at least, seperate the districts by rank. Even shitty games that have rank systems have that level of common sense).
= end of pvp.

Riotgear · Sep 13, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Anet allowing shit like RA to remain as a pvp arena

lol wut?

Quote:

and handling HA poorly (at least, seperate the districts by rank. Even shitty games that have rank systems have that level of common sense).

Actually this probably wouldn't have been a bad idea, would remove the barrier to entry problem, provided they kept the garbage builds under control.

Drinky · Sep 13, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

It be awesome if they made like a new game, it be like the first game but with some new skills, where you would have to play as you did back in the days, because really, its not quite as fun to play with a pvp charr, you dont feel proud you capped all elite skills for all professions etc, you dont feel like farming for cool armor/weapons anymore, since you could just just unlock everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

No new players becoming pvp'ers +
No pvp'ers especially the top ones caring. +
Anet allowing shit like RA to remain as a pvp arena and handling HA poorly (at least, seperate the districts by rank. Even shitty games that have rank systems have that level of common sense).
= end of pvp.

Not rly, that be kinda killing off the challenge of the title, making it really easy to get a lower rank, also its not like those people wouldnt make up a system for determinating a players skill, and not being able to play with lower ranks since there is not often there is a high ranked team going that would pug would be pretty boring if you got some time off on a time your usally not on. And i got 2 accounts, i shouldnt be able to HA with my friends on my other account because it cant get into a high ranked district?

Byron · Sep 13, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

post # 23

QFE.

Furthermore, there is nothing "wrong" with pvp. This feels kinda like the kids who cry after gym class in middle school. Less QQ, more pew pew.

DutchSmurf · Sep 13, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

There are two things wrong with PvP:

- The complexity of the game and the skill level of current players makes for a harsh barrier to entry, which frustrates new players.

- The introduction or buffing of skills that create overly-effective easy-to-play gimmicks that manage to beat better players, which frustrates old players.

The first thing most of all is what really killed PvP. Or better, never gave it a chance to get really started. The different formats that are just that, different, didn't make it easier either. Because the skills you learn in RA aren't going to help you much in HA and GvG. But most shocking still is the complete lack of support for pug-groups. Any other game I know allows random people to play together in the same gamestyle as the highest level of competition is. GW is the only exception I know. I think that for pvp, Anet can learn a lot from most shooters out there.

Riotgear · Sep 13, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

The first thing most of all is what really killed PvP. Or better, never gave it a chance to get really started. The different formats that are just that, different, didn't make it easier either. Because the skills you learn in RA aren't going to help you much in HA and GvG. But most shocking still is the complete lack of support for pug-groups. Any other game I know allows random people to play together in the same gamestyle as the highest level of competition is. GW is the only exception I know. I think that for pvp, Anet can learn a lot from most shooters out there.

The reason it works with shooters is that each person does not have to come into a game with a predetermined role on that team. That's part of why public servers can still see solid play even when a team is cobbled together from random people, as long as the players are good, they can adapt their role and contribute to their team. RA, by contrast, has you pick your role before the team is even created.

The only thing GW could really do close to that would be to do something like make team templates and allow players to pick spots on that template and fight against players in other template teams. This would also eliminate the $120+ financial barrier to entry, which is a large part of why I don't recommend GW to other people any more (no monthly fee, but you have to buy at least 2, preferably 3 full-price games to be competitive in PvP, and the PvE is short, gg).

The constant whining about "rank discrimination" should show the problem: People WANT to advance past the idiotfests of RA, but for the most part, can't. The only obvious way to learn was being an early participant before it turned cutthroat. I wouldn't describe running IWAY, Heroway and Ritspike as particularly educational either.

As with any game, high-level play is going to bleed players as the game gets older and people get bored. Unless the barrier to entry is eliminated, low-level play is going to bleed players too, and the game is going to be dead in short order.

Of course, by some measures, it already is. Anet's solution to the barrier-to-entry problem is to wait for GW2 when they introduce a newer "transitional" format, their mega-PvP world battles. GWEN is out, GW is essentially a lame duck now, and interest is being lost on all fronts.

Lord Natural · Sep 13, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

The main problems with pvp are all in the past. 2 bad chapters created pvp imbalance which helped lead to many pvpers (including some of the top guilds) to leave the game. I'm not going to say that's the only reason, as it's only natural for people to get bored with this style of gameplay eventually. But it was certainly a factor, and it doesn't really matter what changes they decide to impliment at this point, it won't suddenly make the pvp community thrive again. Whether they figure out new and ingenius ways to balance pvp, or sweet title changes to acknowledge PvX leetness, is a moot point at this stage of GW's lifecycle.

The best they can hope for right now is to learn from their mistakes, make GW2 playable out of the box, and hopefully it will be successful enough to create and maintain a solid pvp community.

DutchSmurf · Sep 13, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The reason it works with shooters is that each person does not have to come into a game with a predetermined role on that team. That's part of why public servers can still see solid play even when a team is cobbled together from random people, as long as the players are good, they can adapt their role and contribute to their team. RA, by contrast, has you pick your role before the team is even created.

You can have different roles and still have a working system. Just look at Quake Wars: Enemy Territory (demo came out couple of days ago). You have different roles, different things you need to do, but it plays fine with random teams without much communication. I have to admit the current gvgs don't really work for that, but that is something that can be changed for GW2. At least it will need some kind of area to make your team without having to be in a guild or knowing each other.

Bankai · Sep 13, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

You can have different roles and still have a working system. Just look at Quake Wars: Enemy Territory (demo came out couple of days ago). You have different roles, different things you need to do, but it plays fine with random teams without much communication. I have to admit the current gvgs don't really work for that, but that is something that can be changed for GW2. At least it will need some kind of area to make your team without having to be in a guild or knowing each other.

'They don't really work like that'. No, they're as far apart as you can imagine.

Earlier, I said I approved of the OP. Now that I read it again, I don't agree with it. I'm happy that PvE and PvP are entirely split in GW2, with a special hybrid type of play.

DarkNecrid · Sep 13, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Oh this got moved.

Quote:

"Anyone who seriously believes that PvE trains anyone for PvP is wrong. To even suggest that it does seems incomprehendable for me. You're equating, pretty much c+spacing against an AI that will never change based on what you do, to fighting against another person who can easily think about what you're running, changing their style of play to counter yours, react to changes in your play, and generally be dynamic in whatever they do."

lmao.

The entire desert was meant to train you, show you what PvP modes do etc.

Quote:

"What in God's name is wrong with that? When you're marketing a game as a competitive one, and saying that skill is meant to be a more determining factor than the time you spend playing, why are you forcing people to play a side of it in which they have limitted interest, if any at all. Do you even know how many potentially high skilled players quit the game because of that? Are you aware of the massive disappointment that it was? Do you not recognise the problems that come from forcing a player to grind to play the competitive side of the game?"

Facilitated the seperation that would cause the downfall of PvP cause no new guys coming in.

Quote:

"There are no titles that mean anything because you can just grind them out. The only time a title meant anything was when the Champion Title was tied to the 1500 rating requirement, and there were regular ladder resets. It actually required you to do well, and be able to beat good teams in more than a 1-off situation to get them. Even then it didn't really mean much, but a hell of a lot more than it does now. All titles do is show the experience in one area of the game."

I direct you to the Lucky + Wisdom titles.

Quote:

"To be honest... Charr have always run Ignite Arrows/Dual Shot, as have Avicara. Titans ran Shadow Strike, White Mantle ran IWAY. It's not really important, but I figured I may as well even show why you're wrong in thinking such an irrelevant point."

Charr ran Conjure Flame before EotN??? I NEVER KNEW THIS!

Quote:

"Wrong. This game was intended for various people. There are numerous press releases before release, and before beta testing. Here's a little extract for you."

Sorry, you're still wrong here mate. That thing says nothing against my idea or for yours except the game gives you options. The game itself was still a PvE -> PvP experiance a long time ago. There was a time w/o Balthazar Faction, for example.

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"The only problem with FotM Builds is when they are imbalanced."

If they are FOTM, they are imbalanced 99% of the time.

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"where there is any competition. "

*coughs* wasn't there when the game started.

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"If it was that way in the first place, it would have been better. Requiring people to grind to play PvP was a terrible, terrible idea. If you don't understand that you're an idiot."

Requiring people to learn how the game works cause the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing manual doesn't tell you shit like exhaustion in a safe environment was a terrible idea? WOW I NEVER KNEW! Also thanks for the flame ;(

"TLP? And those numbers are ridiculously wrong."

Already said it was hyperbole.

And TLP is The Last Pride. You know...one of the best guilds ever.

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"Earlier, I said I approved of the OP. Now that I read it again, I don't agree with it. I'm happy that PvE and PvP are entirely split in GW2, with a special hybrid type of play."

Understand that I am glad they are split too, but this isn't split in Guild Wars. Not even now. My suggestions are basically making it less split at this point cause splitting GW1 completely is too expensive and risque at this point in the game.

Ka Tet · Sep 13, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The constant whining about "rank discrimination" should show the problem: People WANT to advance past the idiotfests of RA, but for the most part, can't. The only obvious way to learn was being an early participant before it turned cutthroat. I wouldn't describe running IWAY, Heroway and Ritspike as particularly educational either.

I hate arguments like this. here's why: the only way to become a good player and get on good teams is by playing real builds and playing them alot. If you're concerned with fame more than rank you still won't get on good teams even with fancy gold emote - well you may get on them but you'll also get booted off them in short order.
If you are new to ha and want to become a good player heres a checklist for what you should do: Join no/low rank teams that are running a real build or better yet start your own team.
Play your ass off.
Take your lumps.
Make friends and continue to improve as a player.
Fail to assume that you are already a great player, you'll never make any progress if you believe that your teams fail because of the other 7 people on it.
Find and address your weaknesses.
When you play good teams WATCH WHAT THEY DO - I dont mean just look at whats on their skill bars, look at how they play. How they position themselves etc...
Don't expect to just land on good teams - you first have to become a good player yourself and then meet many other good players and surround yourself with them, while avoiding making teams with bad players.
Don't assume its your emote or lack of an emote that keeps you out of good teams - most good players only play with people they know and pug only when absolutely necessary.
DO NOT RUN GIMMICK/ IMBA builds to get fame - this is the reason why good players tend to play with people they already know b/c they know that a r9 pug who got there with RitSpike, Iway etc... is roughly equivalent to a r4 who got there playing balanced.
When you do get the chance to play with good players dont be pushy, be polite and play hard - and i cant stress this enough pay attention to how they play.

Memento Mori · Sep 14, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Oh this got moved.

lmao.

The entire desert was meant to train you, show you what PvP modes do etc.

See I had this nice post all made and such in the fast reply area, then I scrolled up and saw this.

The desert did not do shit. I could learn what you do in PvP by reading the manual or playing that round in Ascalon when you go post searing. Isle of the Nameless can teach you now, there was no need whatsoever for the desert to teach anyone how to PvP. All the desert taught you was that GW PvE can still be the same old stuff with different enemy models and you can kill enemies in a certain order now. Find any solid proof that the desert truly set you up to be a great PvPer and I will do some amazing feat for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Facilitated the seperation that would cause the downfall of PvP cause no new guys coming in.

Separation between PvE and PvP allowed for shitty players to not play in competitive areas. New people come in all the time, that is why there is still a thing called obs mode. Good players still work their way into the ladder, if Balthazar faction split up PvE and PvP players I'm happy. Balth faction gave people who enjoyed PvP an incentive, why should people who find killing the same monsters with different momentary effects placed on them be forced to do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

I direct you to the Lucky + Wisdom titles.

What about the Lucky and Wisdom titles. You made no point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Charr ran Conjure Flame before EotN??? I NEVER KNEW THIS!

Charr are still the same monsters that you walk up slaughter and move onto next mob of the same thing??? I NEVER KNEW THIS! (Did you see what I did there? I modeled this after your post, but twisted it around)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Sorry, you're still wrong here mate. That thing says nothing against my idea or for yours except the game gives you options. The game itself was still a PvE -> PvP experiance a long time ago. There was a time w/o Balthazar Faction, for example.

This time before balth faction. What did people who were interested in PvP forced to do. To play PvE until they could finally move onto PvE, this game was made for various people, thats why you can bypass the entire grind of PvE and play PvP. The transition of PvE-> PvP was unnecessary. I'll admit most everyone started out PvE'ing, yet after so much many would want to make that transition to PvP before the campaign would allow. Btw now there is a time with balth faction, proving that the old idea failed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

If they are FOTM, they are imbalanced 99% of the time.

FotM never got to far, you learned nothing, you grinded points, same thing as say farming your PvE titles? It was boring, the imbalanceness of the builds was often beaten by teams with certain builds and skills. Not every FotM was utterly imbalanced.

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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

"TLP? And those numbers are ridiculously wrong."
Already said it was hyperbole.
And TLP is The Last Pride. You know...one of the best guilds ever.

I'm sure someone like Vanq knows who [EvIL] is, not TLP. The name was The Last Pride [EvIL] not [TLP]. for someone who played GW for so long and prides himself in taking part in both PvE and PvP how do you mistake the "best guild ever."

yeah thats it.

Theli · Sep 14, 2007, 01:49 AM // 01:49

uhhmmmmm
Like somebody said.

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The main problems with pvp are all in the past. 2 bad chapters created pvp imbalance

Thats for me the real problem with PVP.

and for the guy who started this post..

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The entire desert was meant to train you, show you what PvP modes do etc.

Lmao, are u serius?.
I learn pvp reading, and playing some RA. Then moved to Tombs, then GVG.
Crystal Desert????
Show us what PVP modes do???
I dont understand, sorry.

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Then they introduced Balthazar Faction in the June 29th, 2005 update, which would begin the seperation of Player versus Environment and Player versus Player. No longer did you need to PvE to PvP, oh no...now you could play PvP...to play PvP.

That was the best idea ever.

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I direct you to the Lucky + Wisdom titles.

????????????
What is your point??
And really Lucky + Wisdom.
Lucky = AFK games.
Wisdom = WTB unid items.

And 100% with vanquisher, the only title that meant anything was Chap 1500+ rating.

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If they are FOTM, they are imbalanced 99% of the time.

nooooo.
FOTM means, easy to play, and easy to win. And that doesn't mean that is imbalanced.
Like Vanquisher Said:
Iway + Tigers Fury was imbalanced
Dual Orders was imbalanced.
Rec Insec was imbalanced

Now Current HA FoTM spiritway isn't imbalanced. Maybe with pre-nerf Soul Reaping, but not now.
Signet of Toxic isn't imbalanced.
Only Paraway is imbalanced cause Paragon are bad!!! (Nerf Aggresive Refrain!!!).

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And TLP is The Last Pride. You know...one of the best guilds ever.

u mean EviL???????