Curse

DarkNecrid · Sep 13, 2007, 08:48 AM // 08:48

First, before I say what I have to say, I would like to address you all and tell you my qualifications, and warn you that this is going to be a very very very long post.

I am a PvXer, a person who plays PvE and PvP. I played PvE long ago, at the release of Guild Wars, knowing full well the PvE was just to train you for the PvP.

Then they introduced Balthazar Faction in the June 29th, 2005 update, which would begin the seperation of Player versus Environment and Player versus Player. No longer did you need to PvE to PvP, oh no...now you could play PvP...to play PvP. The system was so new...you only got 2 Faction per kill back then!

It sounded revolutionary at the time, and I really like this system because it gives you a choice, but I believe this choice proved fatal. (more on this later)

Soon after the Balthazar Faction system, I stopped PvEing...there was no real reason to.

Then the new chapter, Factions, came out and I tried PvE in that. It was a completely different ballgame. It seems the missions in the desert were for naught, because Factions didn't prepare you for PvP...at all. This would make the second seperation of PvE and PvP play.

Then the newest and final chapter, Nightfall came out...and I tried PvE in that. It was a lot more fun, but they had these things...called "titles". These rewarded PvE players for staying in PvE and doing it, and PvP players for staying in PvP and doing it. The problem with the title system is, there's no title that rewards you for doing a little bit of both. It's one or the other. There is no hybrid title. This would make the third, and nearly final seperation of PvE and PvP.

Finally, the last part (or so far as we know, the last) of Guild Wars came out...Eye of the North. This didn't add many new skills to the PvP play, which is very much so needed along with constant balance to keep PvPers excited. However, for the first time, I really enjoyed the PvE. I was having fun playing in the minigames, and fighting tough enemy's using builds obviously inspired by famous PvP builds. Heh, the Charr even /rank'd me! And I saw something that amazed me, and pissed me off, at the same time: The Hall of Monuments.

I have played in many guilds, all of which I shall not name. Many were part of a PvE perspective, some from a PvP perspective, some ran by forum moderators, et al.

So I guess what the above paragraphs said was: don't label me as one or the other guys, I'm a hybrid, I am what Guild Wars intended players to be. I am on both your sides, ok?

Now onto my points.

The first major problem with Guild Wars PvP is of course, balance.

I'm going to quote a part of the [b]August 4th, 2005[/b[ update, a part labeled "PvP Playbalance".

Quote:

Given the sophisticated nature of team builds and counters in Guild Wars, we expect to see trends in PvP, as one innovative build changes the landscape, encouraging the use of a counter, which in turn encourages the use of a counter. We have tried to balance Guild Wars to allow for this metagame without allowing the loss of balanced builds and diverse strategies. Since release, we've seen a number of trends come and go, including Warrior Monks, Healing Clusters, Lightning Spike, Enchantment Webs and Spirit Spam. Much, but not all, of the ebb and flow has been in keeping with our goals. Nevertheless, we know that improvements can always be made to playbalance, and we are watching to make sure that no one Flavor of the Month build comes to be too dominant or encourages play in ways that are not fun.

The problem with this entire paragraph, you ask?

FOTM builds HAVE become too dominant, and encourge unfun ways of play. They have for a long time.

And this leads back to the big problem with balance.

Anet is not Anerf. It may seem that way, yes, but I have checked over every single playbalance since the release of Prophecies, and there is nearly twice the amount of buffs then there are nerfs.

One may wonder then, why do people call Anet...Anerf?

Easy answer.

ArenaNet's buffs are enough to bring a skill into "average" or (occasionally) "overpowered" use.

ArenaNet's nerfs are usually enough to completely neuter a skill so that it never sees the light of day, ever.

Why is this a problem though? Anet's strong nerfs lessen the pool of usable skills in PvP AND PvE. People see a skill get owned hard by the nerfbat to where it is dead, and they just see "ok that skills done, lets use this one instead!" and they use it just because it does the same effect...if maybe slightly worse its still better than the nerfed one. Historically all of ArenaNet's nerfs have lowered the avaible of truely "useable" skills and they never buff them to a point of average. Yes, there are exceptions, but these are few and far between.

The second problem with PvP really though? Balthazar Faction.

Yes, it's a GREAT system on paper, but this was the thing that broke the parts of the game truely in 2. It let PvPers never have to PvE ever again, and the end result of this was generally a PvPer would play PvE once, go PvP, and never have to rely on PvE ever again. Which basically means the PvPer would be a PvPer.

Sounds great right?

It would if it wasn't for the fact that Guild Wars was marketed as a game where PvE would lead you into PvP, so naturally 90% of the true original players (these are your Hybrids, like me) got the game for the PvP, but liked a bit of PvE as well. So we wouldn't abandon PvE outright.

However, with this system in place, new players could be PvE or PvP only! Which started tensions between the two...and eventually elitism.

The third problem with PvP? Any chapter after Prophecies doesn't prepare you for PvP.

Thats right.

ArenaNet changed the focus and purpose of the game sometime after Prophecies to where it would be a PvE only or PvP only game. This is VERY apparent. There is little support or room for a Hybrid person in this game anymore. (i mean a person who is hardcore in both, not one who PvE's and dabbles in PvP and vice versa)

This is a big problem because it even made the tensions WORSE.

The fourth problem is titles.

I like titles in purpose, they give you something to do, keep you addicted to the game, etc. I don't mind the grind, it's optional.

BUT.

No title in the game is Hybrid player based. Each title is basically PvE only, or PvP only. I think the only exception might be Gamer with Dragon Arena, but thats about it.

Why?

I should be [b]rewarded[b] for putting immense time into both gameplay types, not penalized for investing so much time into both that getting somewhere in both will take a long time.

And the final thing, really? EOTN added nothing to PvP except for 100 skills, about 70 of which don't innovate or improve or make new builds, and the other 30 just replace existing skills to improve the current builds. What a waste.

Again, I am expecting a PvE'er to go "dude, stfu you got 3 PvP chapters".

No, I got 3 PvX chapters...

Adding new guild halls with some innovative strategy based on EotN Areas (dungeon Guild Halls FTW), new RA/TA arenas based on EOTN (dungeon arenas FTW), skills that actually DO something new and exciting, a new game mode (I still want PvP Polymock ok :< ) would of at least made the expansion not seem so...one sided.

I got 3 PvX chapters, I'm sure all the hybrids out there (Tiyuri and guys, I'm looking at you) feel the same way, no one got 3 "PvP chapters" or 3 "PvE chapters", they each rewarded both of the current tension-high playerbases the same, and they rewarded us Hybrids doubly, thats about the only thing we got as a boon.

But EotN is just a smack in the face.

Lets not even get into the Hall of Monuments, which has titles for both PvE and PvP players...the problem with this is, that the only people who WILL put both title types up ARE Hybrid given the ranks needed. And there are very few Hybrid's left...

I guess in closing, I can sum up the Guild Wars PvP problem in one sentence:
Stopped encourging the Hybrid gametype, not enough expansion on it.

Yeah, balance is a problem, but thats not the heart of the issue.

Izzy could make the most balanced game ever and it wouldn't bring everyone back (TLP....iQ....) because balance isn't the big issue...the way the game is built is, to be honest. All those guys who left? They were top guilds. They were the best of the best, they'd Infuse in .25 seconds of a huge spike nearly killing someone, they'd interrupt .25 cast spells with ease.

Here's the thing though, I'm sure most of the people now-and-days would lable those guys as "PvPers". They were not. They were hybrids. They played the game when it was released, they worked thru PvE with all 6 professions and beat it with all 6 professions and unlocked every goddamn item and skill the hard and right way. They learned how PvP would run thru PvE, they poured their heart and soul into PvE and got rewarded back in PvP.

The game just doesn't support Hybrid-style play any more..they have no reason to PvE because they can get whatever they want thru PvP...they actually get smacked in the face pretty much for Hybrid playing.

It just sickens me to see 2 playerbases really...you PvE guys and you PvP guys shouldn't be argueing dudes...you both love the damn game for whatever reason and you both love ArenaNet.

Did I say 2? I meant 3. Because us Hybrids are the playerbase that Anet originally wanted, and I feel they no longe really want. You just can't be a hardcore PvE'er (LAL MAX TITLE RANKS ALL 5 in NF AND EOTN I PWN) and a hardcore PvP'er (LAL 50 MILLION BALTH FACTION MAX HA TITLE MAX GLAD I PWN) anymore, you have to really be one or the other to get anything done.

yeah yeah, I know tl;dr, but I hope someone checks this out.

It's just...sad really.

EDIT:
Also please do not misconstrue this as a I AM QUITTING TOPIC or a ANET NEVER DOES ANYTHING RIGHT topic, I am not quitting and Anet has definately done tons of stuff right, I feel like these changes that caused these PvP problems were done cause they felt it was right, it just had some bad setbacks.

Yue · Sep 13, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

they'd Infuse in .25 seconds of a huge spike nearly killing someone, they'd interrupt .25 cast spells with ease.

LOL what a joke.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 13, 2007, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Izzy could make the most balanced game ever and it wouldn't bring everyone back (TLP....iQ....) because balance isn't the big issue...the way the game is built is, to be honest. All those guys who left? They were top guilds. They were the best of the best, they'd Infuse in .25 seconds of a huge spike nearly killing someone, they'd interrupt .25 cast spells with ease.

Yeah, okay.

Btw, iQ is still around.

black_mischief · Sep 13, 2007, 09:24 AM // 09:24

i played thru all 3 chapters, at least twice (2 diff pve chars per chap). i also played in a few diff top 10 guilds, including iQ for a little while.

my advice to you is that you should stop being wrong.

DarkNecrid · Sep 13, 2007, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Guys the interrupt thing was hyperbole...

There is a big problem in uh "getting new PvP" players.

Thats basically the END ALL summary of this entire thing.

Theres nothing pushing PvE players to do PvP, and nothing really clueing people in that there is a substantial PvP game here..they don't advertise the PvP side of it.

Akuma · Sep 13, 2007, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Troll less, thanks.

FelixCarter · Sep 13, 2007, 09:41 AM // 09:41

I'm pretty sure Prophecies was originally set up so that once you reached Tombs, you could PvP (Though I may be wrong... It was a long time ago, it seems.). That meant your character should have been level 20 (Through Ascention.) by then and built up to battle other players... Or you could have just made a PvP character.

Prophecies was different in that aspect. PvE character were building up to prepare for PvP and tougher PvE. I also remember a time when getting to the Ring of Fire meant you knew what you were doing. You unlocked everything through determination in PvE...

PvE has changed in that it is now seperate from PvP. PvP has changed in that new skills have been introduced as new chapters have been released. Both are treated seperately now.

/Sigh...

WTB Time Machine - Whisper Offer.

black_mischief · Sep 13, 2007, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Guys the interrupt thing was hyperbole...

There is a big problem in uh "getting new PvP" players.

Thats basically the END ALL summary of this entire thing.

Theres nothing pushing PvE players to do PvP, and nothing really clueing people in that there is a substantial PvP game here..they don't advertise the PvP side of it.

old news is ..... OLD.

Tijger · Sep 13, 2007, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Guys the interrupt thing was hyperbole...

There is a big problem in uh "getting new PvP" players.

The reason for that has nothing to do with Arenanet but everything to do with the most commonly found attitude of PvP players imho.

I stopped going into PvP entirely because I was tired of the childish behaviour in it, the increasing issues with "you have to run build X" and the elitist attitudes "rX only!" combine that with unsporting behavior and display of total lack of respect for other players and I'd had it with PvP.

Every damn time we get a topic like this the one thing that is ALWAYS ignored is the points I make above, but no, no, its all Anet's fault!
Well, guess what, its not, look around you in PvP, look at the attitudes, the language and the ranking/dancing when people win.

Malice Black · Sep 13, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Going to say this once, and once only. If the trolls appears, this whole thread disappears. I'm not wasting my time cleaning up dumb ass remarks, from moronic posters.

DarkNecrid · Sep 13, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

EDIT: This was directed as the person above Malice,

Then you PvE why?

Let me change your thing so its read to mean PvE.

"I stopped going into PvE entirely because I was tired of the childish behaviour in it, the increasing issues with "you have to run build X" and the elitist attitudes "rX TITLE only!" combine that with unsporting behavior and display of total lack of respect for other players and I'd had it with PvE."

Same shit, different mode.

However, just like in PvE, you can join a guild to get around the whole PUG thing for all but 1 of the gamemodes (RA).

There are lots of PvX guilds out there who while focus'd on winning aren't as elitist and stuff as the PUG guys. It's the same thing as PvE really in that respect.

EPO Bot · Sep 13, 2007, 09:53 AM // 09:53

To fix pvp's lack of fun, i suggest the option to play a random version HA, a few more Aspenwoodish instances and severe penalties for rage quitting or leaching.

I think this might give the less then godly pvp initiates a chanse to actually play.

Bankai · Sep 13, 2007, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Amen.

It's a shame ANet can't change this anymore, but I really, really hope they'll make sure this doesn't really happen in GW2.

DarkNecrid · Sep 13, 2007, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

"To fix pvp's lack of fun, i suggest the option to play a random version HA, a few more Aspenwoodish instances and severe penalties for rage quitting or leaching.

I think this might give the less then godly pvp initiates a chanse to actually play."

Random HA would be nice, but uh...that just sounds like a MORE random (more people) RA really.

Aspenwood doesn't see much play...

I agree with penalties.

The thing is the people who leave aren't gods, the real true gods are the guys who stick around.

But they don't need to EXPAND the amount of choices, like 1 new gamemode (PvP Polymock maybe) would be ok, but what they need to do is expand what is already there.

New guildhalls and stuff wind up providing more to the game than tons of new stuff like new Aspenwood like instances because those just spread the playerbase TOO much.

We dont need the already existing PvE problem in that regard, really. PvP Polymock wouldn't be a very serious form of play, so it wouldn't really detract from the playerbase as much, imho.

D E C E P T I V E · Sep 13, 2007, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Lots of people see alot of problems with the current PvP world excpet for the small minority of hardcore pro pvpers that remain. When people point out problems or offer insight they are the first to attack it, yet they seem to be complaining about PvP all the time. Why is that? Because their is no problem or they only want their solution or because they fear change. Change is needed if GW2 is going to be a better game. Im not really agreeing or disagreeing with anything in this post, only adding my own observation.

Skill balance after skill balance has not fixed the PvPgame and it wont fix a game that by its design cant be 100% balanced. This is not saying that the doesnt need to be relatively balanced and that skill balances are not needed whatsoever, just saying there may be other problems that need to be looked at. There was a thread similar to this that had alot of good information in it that was closed if you can sift through all the PvP vs PvE crap that I hope the developers get a chance to see. It was titled PvP is Slowly Dying.

Tijger · Sep 13, 2007, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

EDIT: This was directed as the person above Malice,

Then you PvE why?

Let me change your thing so its read to mean PvE.

"I stopped going into PvE entirely because I was tired of the childish behaviour in it, the increasing issues with "you have to run build X" and the elitist attitudes "rX TITLE only!" combine that with unsporting behavior and display of total lack of respect for other players and I'd had it with PvE."

Same shit, different mode.

However, just like in PvE, you can join a guild to get around the whole PUG thing for all but 1 of the gamemodes (RA).

There are lots of PvX guilds out there who while focus'd on winning aren't as elitist and stuff as the PUG guys. It's the same thing as PvE really in that respect.

Actually, thats a BS comparison to make, in PvE only side is human, in PvP both sides are and not all bad behaviour comes from your own team nor was I just talkign about teammates behaving like idiots.
There is elitism in PvE as well but in PvE we have an option, we can use heroes or henches which a lot of people do...not really an option in PvP.

Furthermore, you're not defusing or countering my points, you're only saying "yeah but THEY do it too!", thats not going to solve anything, now is it?

But hey, if thats the approach you want to take then I think you're wasting your time, the success of PvP depends solely on the human players whereas in PvE we dont need our humans or can make do with only 1-2 friends.

DarkNecrid · Sep 13, 2007, 11:23 AM // 11:23

The point is, if you want to avoid the elitist people to get on a team in PvE, you guild or H/H.

If you want to avoid the elitist people to get on a team in PvP, you guild.

Sab · Sep 13, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

To be honest I found the post a little hard to read. Usually I skim through to find the main points (at the start of each paragraph), then read in detail, but with short, scattered sentences, your points are somewhat diluted. Good formatting helps readers when they respond, too, as they can quickly find and quote whatever they agree or disagree on.

But on topic...

The devs are slowly learning to balance the game. It's not that difficult really, they just need to listen to us. Virtually all the top players reach a consensus about what skills need to be balanced, even *how* they will be balanced, complete with numbers. However, it takes far too long to get anything changed. We complain about something seriously broken, something that's screwing up the meta. We wait for weeks, months, and nothing gets done. That's the true problem with skill balances. Right now there's a problem with stacked passive defense in GvG. God knows when that'll be fixed.

As for "hybrid" players, I don't see a problem. People play what they want to play. Most top PvPers I know stick to PVP because they find PvE boring. It's not because they don't have time for PvE, or that PvE doesn't reward their PvP efforts. And most PvErs I know play PvE because they're content with questing and grinding. Some simply don't like the competitive environment of PvP. If you play both, good for you, I do both as well. But I see no reason to encourage either player base to do what they don't enjoy, and this just isn't the biggest problem in PvP.

Tijger · Sep 13, 2007, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

The point is, if you want to avoid the elitist people to get on a team in PvE, you guild or H/H.

If you want to avoid the elitist people to get on a team in PvP, you guild.

Which take care of only one issue, elitism, and that is assuming your guild has enough PvP players who actually want to play, can play and are themselves not only accepting people of rankX or higher.

Which leaves all the other points including the main one:

The players make or break PvP

Ado · Sep 13, 2007, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Lemme summerize what went wrong in PvP

oldskoolers: average age 20 years old, looking for difficulty, creativity and challenge.
current players: average age 14 years old, famefarmers, looking for easiest way to win.

note: I'm not trolling, really, I'm not.