Curse

kvndoom · Oct 13, 2007, 12:09 PM // 12:09

That wasn't a hard nerf, at all. Let me see the show of hands on the number of Paragons who now get targeted and spiked down the second they use AR.

>crickets<

And if Cracked Armor scares anyone too much, let them bring Remedy Signet to spare the Monks' energy.

If anything, Cracked gives more fuel to Restore Condition if the Paragon does get spiked or B-Surged. But in the end I can assure you Cracked Armor won't change much. The real hits are recharges on Watch Yourself and Go For The Eyes. They slow down the infinite energy engine.

Truthfully though, if Leadership hadn't been such a stupid mechanic from day one, Paragons never would have had to be nerfed so much. They should have been highly adrenaline-based, and Leadership should have served to extend the duration of shouts / chants / echoes.

Or:

Leadership:

All your team-friendly Shouts / Chants / Echoes affect adjacent teammates.

At 3 points of Leadership, they affect nearby allies.

At 8 points, they affect allies in the area.

At 13 points, they affect allies within earshot.

But instead Anet sits at their round table and decides, "hey! Let's make a passive, skill-less energy management mechanic that's just as broken as Soul Reaping!"

Vaga · Oct 13, 2007, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Assassins are Assassins they spike, If you don't like it bring proper melee or magic counters. You should anyways, stop relying on your monk to do everything and bring some damn self-defence.

And if they have to press 1-8 then there screwed anyways cus they are the true definition of Glass Shotgun.

Someone said this and I agree...
Revise the entire assassin class, and I dont mean so that there not spike machines (they should), just uh give them some Karma.
You use Shadow Prison so then your getting crippled
/
A slow assassin is a crappy assassin.

Were assassins meant to be these spike machines that kill people every spike unless they have a monk or some other defense that can't be brought on a normal bar?

With a bunch of teleports, assassins already have a huge movement advantage over everyone else which is how they seemed to work out 'ok' during factions and a bit after that with AoD as the primary elite.

I think the common agreement is that assassins should probably have some better utility, maybe that utility contributes to them being a better skirmish class but something has to be done so that they take at least some skill to play. It's silly that the most effective skirmish class just spams it's attack skills whilst pretty much every other skirmish template takes quite a lot of skill to play.

Keithark · Oct 13, 2007, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

That wasn't a hard nerf, at all. Let me see the show of hands on the number of Paragons who now get targeted and spiked down the second they use AR.

>crickets<

And if Cracked Armor scares anyone too much, let them bring Remedy Signet to spare the Monks' energy.

If anything, Cracked gives more fuel to Restore Condition if the Paragon does get spiked or B-Surged. But in the end I can assure you Cracked Armor won't change much. The real hits are recharges on Watch Yourself and Go For The Eyes. They slow down the infinite energy engine.

Go roll up a Paragon and play it a while then comment. "let them bring remedy" did you read the nerf? every time you get a shout or chant it reapplies so you would have to be able to cast remedy about once every 5 seconds. Also the GFTE and watch yourself further nerfs the class. So no you are basically a warder/aegis type toon with 30 energy and 2 pips of regen...in other words paragon becomes about as usefull as your post....not at all

masta_yoda · Oct 13, 2007, 01:30 PM // 13:30

paragons are still quite strong

cracked armour would help a little bit, but paragons still prob have like 100 armour

4 second recharge for the andren shouts, kinda hurts, now it would take almost twice as long b4 they can shout again, this would probably be ok on the Watch yourself guy, energy would not be as good but can probably be countered with a zealous spear/

ensoriki · Oct 13, 2007, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Were assassins meant to be these spike machines that kill people every spike unless they have a monk or some other defense that can't be brought on a normal bar?

With a bunch of teleports, assassins already have a huge movement advantage over everyone else which is how they seemed to work out 'ok' during factions and a bit after that with AoD as the primary elite.

I think the common agreement is that assassins should probably have some better utility, maybe that utility contributes to them being a better skirmish class but something has to be done so that they take at least some skill to play. It's silly that the most effective skirmish class just spams it's attack skills whilst pretty much every other skirmish template takes quite a lot of skill to play.

Spike machine ergo Able to do Large damage in a short amount of time.
I didnt say kill machine, They should be good at spiking.
And what defenses that can't be fit on a normal bar?
When you think of defenses what are you saying just a heal? Assassins bring "just a heal (usually feigned) And they die like flies, most classes should bring 2 defences IMO otherwise they are just glass fodder"

Heres the thing in Factions, Assassin teleporting was awesome and fun, it still is. Generally theres more problems when other classes abuse this -_-. But anyways on the subject of sins teleporting, AoD (as far as my knowledge goes) was made to get in and get out, if sins are using it as intended then its not really abuse or over using the skill is it?

Assassins do have some good utility (good enough for them to use it) 1 of the problem is most assassins DO Not use it because there busy with there 123456 bars. Dark escape would also be better if it was 25% failure with crit strikes 3 or less and recharged shortened.

Qual · Oct 13, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

I like the update, it's all right.

TheOneMephisto · Oct 13, 2007, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

Go roll up a Paragon and play it a while then comment. "let them bring remedy" did you read the nerf? every time you get a shout or chant it reapplies so you would have to be able to cast remedy about once every 5 seconds. Also the GFTE and watch yourself further nerfs the class. So no you are basically a warder/aegis type toon with 30 energy and 2 pips of regen...in other words paragon becomes about as usefull as your post....not at all

And this is why 2 melee 2 paragon teams are steamrolling in under 10 min?

Neo-LD · Oct 13, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

I agree that many of these changes fall short of the drastic changes that we were hoping for, but most at least are taking the right skills in the right directions. Most.

Still, its very dissapointing that we're going to be stuck with the same old degenerate crap for God knows how long.

martialis · Oct 13, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

(This is about PvP, I swear!)

On behalf of the people in the Riverside Inn, who are crying about Shadow Form, of all things (not in PvE, but in RA and TA and HA, apparently), I'd like you to nerf Deadly Paradox, please. When you nerf Deadly Paradox, please do it properly, so this griefing build is eliminated. Shadow Form is just about the dumbest skill imaginable for what it does, and nerfing Deadly Paradox will fix it.

My suggestion is:
Deadly Paradox - Stance. For 5...13...15 seconds, your Assassin Skills activate and recharge 50% faster. If you deal damage to a foe or use a non-Assassin skill, this stance ends.

Deadly Paradox will only be useful for maintaining Feigned Neutrality, which is an improvement, at least.

Or you could make Shadow Form a Form. That would be cool.

ensoriki · Oct 13, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by martialis

(This is about PvP, I swear!)

On behalf of the people in the Riverside Inn, who are crying about Shadow Form, of all things (not in PvE, but in RA and TA and HA, apparently), I'd like you to nerf Deadly Paradox, please. When you nerf Deadly Paradox, please do it properly, so this griefing build is eliminated. Shadow Form is just about the dumbest skill imaginable for what it does, and nerfing Deadly Paradox will fix it.

Nope.

My suggestion is:
Deadly Paradox - Stance. For 5...13...15 seconds, your Assassin Skills activate and recharge 50% faster. If you deal damage to a foe or use a non-Assassin skill, this stance ends.
Do you play an assassin? That suggestion makes no sense...if you deal damage to a foe it ends -_- for a skill that says DEADLY paradox... and making a skill for the soul purpose to use with another skill is odd...its only purpose will be feigned? What a waste of data then. Find a better "fix" or leave it alone

Deadly paradox (new addition) All your non assassin skills are disabled for 25...10 seconds (arcane echo is going to have a problem)

Deadly Paradox will only be useful for maintaining Feigned Neutrality, which is an improvement, at least.

Or you could make Shadow Form a Form. That would be cool.

Making shadow form a form was sayed by many when Dervishes came out.
Making it a form means adding a new assassin sprite (which has to emulate all the dagger moves etc and you have to increase shadowforms duration or reduce recharge since it looses synergy from being an enchant.

kvndoom · Oct 13, 2007, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

Go roll up a Paragon and play it a while then comment. "let them bring remedy" did you read the nerf? every time you get a shout or chant it reapplies so you would have to be able to cast remedy about once every 5 seconds. Also the GFTE and watch yourself further nerfs the class. So no you are basically a warder/aegis type toon with 30 energy and 2 pips of regen...in other words paragon becomes about as usefull as your post....not at all

Oh wow, it's not like Cracked Armor even matters unless you're getting attacked. It doesn't affect your DPS (weakness), speed of your skills (dazed), maximum health (deep wound), movement speed (crippled) or ability to hit (blind). All Cracked does is create a potential to take more damage. And actually you can use Remedy every 5 seconds. Every 4 seconds in fact, if you really need to. You should go post in Riverside, that's where the rest of the "everything must be worst case scenario" reality distortion field threads are.

Keithark · Oct 13, 2007, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

Oh wow, it's not like Cracked Armor even matters unless you're getting attacked. It doesn't affect your DPS (weakness), speed of your skills (dazed), maximum health (deep wound), movement speed (crippled) or ability to hit (blind). All Cracked does is create a potential to take more damage. And actually you can use Remedy every 5 seconds. Every 4 seconds in fact, if you really need to. You should go post in Riverside, that's where the rest of the "everything must be worst case scenario" reality distortion field threads are.

Yes you can use remedy that often but then you would get to shout 1 time every 4 seconds attack once every 6 seconds, chant once every 9 seconds that is really great isn't it? Only matters if you get attacked??? Wow...you could say the same about ANYTHING. So you are wanting cracked now to read -20 al but nobody can attack you ? OK I am fine with that. And it is not just the cracked, it is that along with the nerfs to watch yourself and GFtE that has made the paragon overnerfed or underpowered. AR was a bit overpowered as it was but as I said this nerf makes it underpowered. Why do we always have to go to such extremes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by masta_yoda

paragons are still quite strong

cracked armour would help a little bit, but paragons still prob have like 100 armour

4 second recharge for the andren shouts, kinda hurts, now it would take almost twice as long b4 they can shout again, this would probably be ok on the Watch yourself guy, energy would not be as good but can probably be countered with a zealous spear/

You cannot say they have 100 armor, they don't!! when cracked they have 60 otherwise 80. Yes if they have watch yourself of some other armor buff up they may have more armor but like I said above you can say that for any class. The nerf was overdone.

Riotgear · Oct 13, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Paragons get the +10 while breathing (I mean, while under the effect of a shout or chant) insignia, and a full-strength shield. They're still hard targets. They're still a waste of time to attack. They're still not nearly as vulnerable to interrupts or attacks on their energy pool as other midliners because most of what they do doesn't have a cast time. They're still not nearly as vulnerable to opportunistic anti-melee attacks counters as other midliners because they don't need to close to melee range and they don't don't rely on well-timed attack chains.

AR is underpowered? Thanks for the laugh.

And nobody cares about Shadow Form if it can't be abused with Deadly Paradox to reduce its downtime to practically nothing.

moriz · Oct 13, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

paragons essentially still have 86 AL vs one damage type, and 76 AL vs others. that can be remedied by carrying more shields. i'd say they are still ridiculously tough targets, and this nerf does very little to them.

Ulterion · Oct 13, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Updates are dumb. Especially SoR and SoD. Prior to update, monks struggled to keep their team alive. Now there's no hope at all for the poor buggers. Refrain: cracked armor?!?! Now Para's SUCK even FURTHER! Mesmer updates: LoL I won't even waste space/time. Just... LoL And all other buffs (insignificant). GG anet...

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 13, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

And this is why 2 melee 2 paragon teams are steamrolling in under 10 min?

They always did...On a map like burning isle you should be able to roll anyone in under 4, game over.

Vaga · Oct 13, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulterion

Updates are dumb. Especially SoR and SoD. Prior to update, monks struggled to keep their team alive. Now there's no hope at all for the poor buggers. Refrain: cracked armor?!?! Now Para's SUCK even FURTHER! Mesmer updates: LoL I won't even waste space/time. Just... LoL And all other buffs (insignificant). GG anet...

Before you try burn anet you should at least try and make it sound like you have the intelligence and knowledge to do a better job, which clearly you don't.

Moloch Vein · Oct 13, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

I would like an explanation from the skill balancers about why Chilblains was changed so that it can no longer remove Shadow Form or Spell Breaker. I would also want to know why it still costs 25e.

Riotgear · Oct 13, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I would like an explanation from the skill balancers about why Chilblains was changed so that it can no longer remove Shadow Form or Spell Breaker. I would also want to know why it still costs 25e.

Chilblains was bad even if just used for combating Shadow Form. Of course, you can still use it for that as long as you can find another target to splash it off of.

glountz · Oct 13, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I would like an explanation from the skill balancers about why Chilblains was changed so that it can no longer remove Shadow Form or Spell Breaker. I would also want to know why it still costs 25e.

Probably for the same reason Savage Slash was once nerfed from 5 NRJ 0.5cast 10 recharge to 10 NRJ, 0.5 cast 20 recharge: failure.
Then they brought back slightly Savage slash to a more reasonable efficience, yet still subpar.
Theyre not doing their job right. Really really really.

On a side not about paras, they continue in their mindless balance. When will they understand?
Remember Nightfall preview? Dervishes rolled everything because Mysticism was so broken. Then they did the right job: they nerfed Mysticism so Dervish skills were okay. Nobody noticed then that paragons were also broken, from their Primary attribute to their equipment.
Later, they understood that Paragons were too powerful. Did they nerf primary attribute/equipment/shout immunity to removal accordingly, like they did in a smart move for Dervishes?
No Sir. They nerfed paragon skills to the point that only a para was able to use them effectively. They conserved the broken mechanics of the paragons, and just nerfed their skills to Oblivion so it was relatively balanced.
Just look at WY!. For warriors, it was a decent skill to bring. Thanks to paras and their broken Leadership it is now barely usable for them. It was nerfed in its duration, then in its armor boost, now it even has a recharge.
Seriously.
Devs.
Listen to the community.