Curse

erk · Oct 25, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

You are comparing a 3 hit combo from a war to a 6 hit combo from a sin. 200 or so of the dmg is coming from steel blades alone. The main difference is dmg compression. I don't need a full 500 from my war to effectively kill a target I just need the dmg as fast as possible to give the opposing monk less time to catch the spike.

Your problem with that is you have to wait until you build up 8+8+6 adrenaline for that combo again for another 210+ damage, that takes time, the sin will be well finised his combo by then and out of there.

Quote:

Where a war can stand in the frontline and overextend a sin cannot. Sins can shadow step in but have problems getting out while doing a long combo. At the stand they are junk. If you take a sin you must redesign your entire build just to entertain their presence.

If you watch the good sins you will see them switch to a shield/sword after their combo whilst they recharge and reposition for the next target. Any team that does not design their whole team around the builds they are playing is just being slack, and will probably pay the price.

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Where Sins really shine is the current ATs because you know what maps you will be on. That allows you to change your build to exploit the map.

In the end comparing the two in such a one dimensional way doesn't do either justice.

AT's are unique you know where you are playing next and often who it most likely going to be against so you can adjust your whole team not suit, not just a sin or two.

Riotgear · Oct 25, 2007, 03:52 AM // 03:52

They're bad at the stand, but when you've got two people knocked on their ass, both of which are prepared to eat an unblockable 250+DW wad of damage, a 33%-speed-boosted rampaging tree beating people up, and your hex removal is already being overloaded, it's not really that hard to force a kill even at the stand. It's not awesome at it, but it can do it via brute force, and it can also drop the enemy's archer count to zero with relatively little effort.

Also, as bad as it is, physical-based offenses getting flooded with inept/clumsy aren't too great either.

Quote:

Ive got a better Idea, since what im claiming is more along the lines of me accusing the community that they dont experiment enough or attempt to give things the time they deserve...

...why dont you ( or anyone here who is claiming sins are limited in that way ) post a build focused around siphon strength and post the strategy you would use it for as well. It doesnt have to be a good build, just the best you can think of with it. Prove to me that you can think for yourselves.

This is like telling me to go out into the woods and find tracks I think were made by Bigfoot. Why would anyone try to help you prove a point that they think is wrong? Either post your own evidence and back your own argument up, or stop making empty claims.

twicky_kid · Oct 25, 2007, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Your problem with that is you have to wait until you build up 8+8+6 adrenaline for that combo again for another 210+ damage, that takes time, the sin will be well finised his combo by then and out of there.

While I'm building that adren I'm pressuring the other team. A sin cannot do that. Well a sin that wants to live for very long that is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

If you watch the good sins you will see them switch to a shield/sword after their combo whilst they recharge and reposition for the next target. Any team that does not design their whole team around the builds they are playing is just being slack, and will probably pay the price.

So weapon swapping is the only req for you to be a "good" sin? For instance a war needs draw conditions in the build to keep em clean. This is an example of building around another class. Compare the skills needed to support the war then compare the skills needed to support a sin. Sins need a lot more skills to support them than wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

AT's are unique you know where you are playing next and often who it most likely going to be against so you can adjust your whole team not suit, not just a sin or two.

That's exactly the point. Sins are good at ganking but not on every map. There are many maps a sin can exploit with shadow stepping. Its not about changing their build its about swapping them out completely because the map demands it.

Master Ketsu · Oct 25, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

This is like telling me to go out into the woods and find tracks I think were made by Bigfoot. Why would anyone try to help you prove a point that they think are wrong? Either post your own evidence and back your own argument up, or stop making ridiculous claims.

You didnt read my post, did you ?

Rephrasing myself:

My claim is that the community is unwilling to try new things and mindlessly follows a cookie-cutter-mindset. My claim is that players: top or not, do not give quirky builds that are bad when first played but excellent when perfected, a real chance. My claim is that the community is closed minded. I am not trying to say that I am an uber-player who's better then everyone else. I am not out to show what an awesome Johnny/Spike hybrid I am.

Im asking you guys to come up with a build centered around it and what kind of strategy you would use around it, because if anyone can actually manage to post something as good as what im thinking of and can say why its still bad then that means my point is false. thats what would prove me wrong. If I were to post my own builds, it wouldn't prove much of anything other then I actually have them, but it wouldn't prove my point.

Riotgear · Oct 25, 2007, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

You didnt read my post, did you ?

I read it just fine. You have yet to make any sort of compelling argument supporting your position, instead you have created this sort of trap scenario which will supposedly prove you right no matter what. If someone comes up with a decent-non-SP Assassin build, you get proven right. If someone doesn't, you'll say it's because the community isn't clever enough, even if the real reason is that they don't exist. You haven't made any sort of argument that the reason non-SP builds haven't been seeing play is due to lack of experimentation, as opposed to those builds simply sucking ass.

I could claim that the only reason people don't run touch rangers in GvG is because people can't think outside the box, but everyone else claims the real reason is because they suck. Unless I can bring up a build utilizing them that doesn't blow, why should anyone believe my claim?

Master Ketsu · Oct 25, 2007, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I read it just fine. You have yet to make any sort of compelling argument supporting your position, instead you have created this sort of trap scenario which will supposedly prove you right no matter what. If someone comes up with a decent-non-SP Assassin build, you get proven right. If someone doesn't, you'll say it's because the community isn't clever enough, even if the real reason is that they don't exist. You haven't made any sort of argument that the reason non-SP builds haven't been seeing play is due to lack of experimentation, as opposed to those builds simply sucking ass.

I could claim that the only reason people don't run touch rangers in GvG is because people can't think outside the box, but everyone else claims the real reason is because they suck. Unless I can bring up a build utilizing them that doesn't blow, why should anyone believe my claim?

And just what in the hell would I have to gain from doing that ?

Just because I seem psychotic does not mean my intentions are retarded.

Riotgear · Oct 25, 2007, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

And just what in the hell would I have to gain from doing that ?

I'm not questioning your motives/intentions, because I don't care about them. The reason you post something has no bearing on the accuracy of it.

I'm trying to get a real answer. You claim that the community's inability to produce a decent non-SP Assassin bar is due to lack of creativity, yet you refuse to provide any examples of the good non-SP bars you claim exist. Please, either back your claims up with evidence, or stop making them.

Master Ketsu · Oct 25, 2007, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I'm not questioning your motives/intentions, because I don't care about them. The reason you post something has no bearing on the accuracy of it.

I'm trying to get a real answer. You claim that the community's inability to produce a decent non-SP Assassin bar is due to lack of creativity, yet you refuse to provide any examples of the good non-SP bars you claim exist. Please, either back your claims up with evidence, or stop making them.

You missed one key word: "unwilling"

Ensign · Oct 25, 2007, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

...why dont you ( or anyone here who is claiming sins are limited in that way ) post a build focused around siphon strength and post the strategy you would use it for as well. It doesnt have to be a good build, just the best you can think of with it. Prove to me that you can think for yourselves.

You take Siphon Strength and cover it with Siphon Speed, pack in a combo of your choice (2x Black Blossom Impale, 2x Black Horns Blades Impale, Black Vampiric Impale are the best options), stick in a bit of utility if you have a free slot (DDagger, DBlow, Rending Sweep, Dark Prison, Shock, etc). You put the character in a dedicated hex build since it's centered around a sticky elite. It's a rather strong hybrid as long as it works, Siphon Strength is a really powerful skill if you can get it to stick, it shuts down a Warrior pretty hard and you still have a decent Assassin to attack with. The character also splits very well defensively, as a physical is virtually required to make an offensive push.

The holes should be obvious; the character is essentially worthless outside of a hex build, since without overload hexes do not stick. You don't have a good, reliable hard snare or knockdown which leave your combos kitable; your combos are more DPS than spikes. The offense doesn't have any of the properties of a top-flight physical, the big spikes in damage nor the knockdowns that really threaten kills. It's not a bad character but it doesn't solve any of the big problems with a hex build; it's a so-so physical and a so-so hexer, and you're still going to win or lose, for the most part, on the amount of hex removal the other team decided to slot that match.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Being top in GW is time spent. Not skill. Anyone who says otherwise = in denial.

I've played quite a few other competitive games in my time, and none of them have approached the depths of strategy and tactics that Guild Wars presented at its peak. The quality of play achieved in this game, even at its peak, was leagues away from any potential ceiling. A lot of people stick around in this game because we know how high the ceiling is, compared to other competitive computer games out there; it isn't even close.

Master Ketsu · Oct 25, 2007, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

You take Siphon Strength and cover it with Siphon Speed, pack in a combo of your choice (2x Black Blossom Impale, 2x Black Horns Blades Impale, Black Vampiric Impale are the best options), stick in a bit of utility if you have a free slot (DDagger, DBlow, Rending Sweep, Dark Prison, Shock, etc). You put the character in a dedicated hex build since it's centered around a sticky elite. It's a rather strong hybrid as long as it works, Siphon Strength is a really powerful skill if you can get it to stick, it shuts down a Warrior pretty hard and you still have a decent Assassin to attack with. The character also splits very well defensively, as a physical is virtually required to make an offensive push.

The holes should be obvious; the character is essentially worthless outside of a hex build, since without overload hexes do not stick. You don't have a good, reliable hard snare or knockdown which leave your combos kitable; your combos are more DPS than spikes. The offense doesn't have any of the properties of a top-flight physical, the big spikes in damage nor the knockdowns that really threaten kills. It's not a bad character but it doesn't solve any of the big problems with a hex build; it's a so-so physical and a so-so hexer, and you're still going to win or lose, for the most part, on the amount of hex removal the other team decided to slot that match.

First off, thank you for actually making a good reply. At least one person here was willing to give it some thought, thats good enough for me.

That being said, you are close to the way I would use it. It would be an almost complete hex-pressure team made to exploit the game whenever the meta shifts to low hex removal like it was a month ago. The sin would be the only melee, everything else would be Me/ and N/ ( not counting monks and defensive characters. ) The difficulty lies in how its run. First off, Siphon speed is plenty of anti kite. Your forgetting that a sin can "ricochet" it off of someone who is not his target, and use it for the 33% boost. This includes NPC's.

For a primary sin im thinking of would be pretty hard to run as its a combination of soul barbs and barbs spike. The sin may even end up with flurry.

I would also try test running it on a Me/A ( who does not use daggers, but spells and uses it purely for its utility. ) . I try alot of things even if they seem like they would be bad, until I get them to work. Occasionally something broken comes up.

Quote:

I've played quite a few other competitive games in my time, and none of them have approached the depths of strategy and tactics that Guild Wars presented at its peak. The quality of play achieved in this game, even at its peak, was leagues away from any potential ceiling. A lot of people stick around in this game because we know how high the ceiling is, compared to other competitive computer games out there; it isn't even close.

Your right, in its peak GW was rivaling the metagame complexity of MTG. No other game but guild wars has come that close. But as for competitiveness itself Id have to disagree. Starcraft in its prime reached a level in that respect that Guild wars will never, ever, reach. Theirs also the matter of tweak being involved. Part of the competitiveness of games like counterstrike and halo was actually individual skill based on who could keep up the fastest reaction time and best "tweak" gameplay while still paying attention to strategy. Opinion goes a long way with that since Guild wars is largely about cooperation. While their is a lot of team skill involved in those games, individual skill is what we cared for.

But the current state of the game is a cakefest. You and I both know that.

Div · Oct 25, 2007, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Ha ha wow. Anyone can be a top player in guild wars. GW has a very very low skill gap. Getting good in GW is about spending time to earn a reputation in the upper community so you can get in to those top guilds. The actual individual skill required to play at that level is fairly easy to obtain ( half of its common sense... ). Even the builds that take most skill to play...dont really take that much to play. Try playing countersrike or Halo CE competitively, or at least a game that requires constant tweak and strategy, then come back and tell me what you know about game balance and metagaming.

Being top in GW is time spent. Not skill. Anyone who says otherwise = in denial.

Very low skill gap? I've seen many people who have played many, many GvG matches and are still not that great, and others that catch on fairly quickly. The actual individual skill being fairly easy to obtain? There are only a handful of rangers that can accurately predict skill usage and know when to take certain action. Not all warriors know how to pressure and when to pressure what.

Take monking for example. There are many little perks about it that many players simply don't know about or can't do as well. The decision-reaction time needed for when to prot, when to heal is not trivial and definitely not everyone can do it. You'd be amazed at how bad most monks are at protting, battlefield awareness, weapon swapping, positioning, kiting correctly etc. regardless of how many games of experience they've had. I'd imagine the same thing goes for warrior, but I'm just naturally horribad at warrior

A simple counterexample to your statement that skill isn't required to be top in GW is the ladder. You see many guilds with records of 700-600 or worse. They've played enough GvGs to be able to compete at a top 100 level, but they're still hanging around the 1000 level. Why? Because those players simply aren't good. Obviously the more time you spend the better you get, but there's a reason why certain players can reach the top more easily than others.

Cool Spike · Oct 25, 2007, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Ha ha wow. Anyone can be a top player in guild wars. GW has a very very low skill gap. Getting good in GW is about spending time to earn a reputation in the upper community so you can get in to those top guilds. The actual individual skill required to play at that level is fairly easy to obtain ( half of its common sense... ). Even the builds that take most skill to play...dont really take that much to play. Try playing countersrike or Halo CE competitively, or at least a game that requires constant tweak and strategy, then come back and tell me what you know about game balance and metagaming.

Being top in GW is time spent. Not skill. Anyone who says otherwise = in denial.

You are the one in denial here if you think this. Seriously.

AlexGuildDrama · Oct 25, 2007, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Ketsu:

Although I agree that GW just takes common sense and not much skill, you have to remember that it also takes teamwork and organization, which is the hardest part of competitive play, and hard for most individuals to achieve.

Same thing can be applied to Counter-Strike. That's why not every high-score pug, can do well in scrims.

Back to topic...
Some angry guy told me to go back to PvE when I was PvPing him. So I decided sure, why not, I haven't done it over a year. After this series of balancing, PvE became really really really hard with henchies and heroes. I don't blame the balancing. I just blame the lack of creativity of making PvE challenging, because the decision made to make it challenging was ridiculous monster skills and everything at level 28. Strong skills needed to be added to the game in order to deal with PvE, as a consequence PvP became imbalanced. PvE only skills weren't added to the game until way later. I hope this becomes taken into account for Guild Wars 2 developers.

Master Ketsu · Oct 25, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Skill gap is the distance between players thats making the differance. It doesnt mean their wont be bad players, it just means the failure between them and top players is not a far close. The mistakes bad players make are ussually communication failure/ team fail and/or build fail. I observe alot and guest alot, and what I see is that the differance between players when you just get down to the bread and butter of how they are using their bar, the differance is lower then most competitive games out their. Individual skill gap for most classes except monk, ranger, and maybe warrior, is pretty simple to close. The builds that are being run by them take little to no skill. When I say gw takes no skill im obviously referring to the current state of the game. A person can gain the individual skill needed to play one of those well, and be in the top if they gave it time.

Compared to games like CS: Which take both solo skill and team skill.

Although you are right to some degree: The skill gap with monks is pretty large. That much I notice and wont try to deny.

Bankai · Oct 25, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

The skill gap with Mesmers is also pretty large, as it's definately one of the hardest classes to play good.

Byron · Oct 25, 2007, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

A lot of people stick around in this game because we know how high the ceiling is, compared to other competitive computer games out there; it isn't even close.

I'm awping short A.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

The skill gap with Mesmers is also pretty large, as it's definately one of the hardest classes to play good.

I'd say the biggest skill gap at the moment is in rangers. A good ranger will bring a lot to a balanced team, but a bad one is virtually useless. A bad mesmer can throw diversions on casters and be mildly effective, as can a bad monk just babysit the party screen, but a ranger needs to be active, aware, and decisive, otherwise he isn't really doing anything.

Master Ketsu · Oct 25, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Ranger skill gap is pretty high, but not as high as monks. A bad ranger will at least spread conditions to some degree and interrupt random skills, but wont cause the team to die like a bad monk will.

Mesmer skill gap can be decent, depending on your build. Dom meses dont take much to play IMO.

Div · Oct 25, 2007, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Dom meses dont take much to play IMO.

That just shows how big a skill gap there is between a top player playing dom mesmer and you. The very basics of interrupting is to be on one target, see another target's animation, click that target, and interrupt a 1 (or 3/4 second) cast. Many people simply aren't fast or skilled enough to do that. And that's just one facet of the dom mesmer's tricks.

GW is a lot more of a team coordination game, which is why it's harder to observe the individual failures. But when you watch a top 20 fight a rank 1k with mirror builds going 8v8, you'll easily notice individual failures and successes.

Bankai · Oct 25, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

That just shows how big a skill gap there is between a top player playing dom mesmer and you. The very basics of interrupting is to be on one target, see another target's animation, click that target, and interrupt a 1 (or 3/4 second) cast. Many people simply aren't fast or skilled enough to do that. And that's just one facet of the dom mesmer's tricks.

Wow, people can actually do that?

The only thing that I know is that when facing a top-team mesmer, all crucial enchantments will be shattered/drained and all key skills diverted or interrupted. And that's not coincidence.

ksalanpang · Oct 25, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

GW is a lot more of a team coordination game, which is why it's harder to observe the individual failures. But when you watch a top 20 fight a rank 1k with mirror builds going 8v8, you'll easily notice individual failures and successes.

Yup. It's hard to observe what/which mez is doing something to who. Quality of mez is going downhill since lots of known good mezmers aren't active. A good mez doesn't necessary come from the #1 guild.