Curse

Kyp Jade · Oct 24, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

clumsiness vs bsurge is an interesting build choice. COnsidering the meta and draw on spikes, clumsiness is strickly better in that sense. (harder to remove hex on spikes than it is to draw on spikes). But just spamming clumsiness is as bad as spamming bsurge.

Clumsiness however, works amazing in small skirmishes. (I obs all day since its better than pugging/pve)

But what can I say, im a HA scrub

glountz · Oct 24, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Warriors spike harder than assasins too. be quiet.

Really?
I don't think so.
But what I don't like in sins is that their combos are so terribly predictable. When they lay down their Expose or SP, you know quickly who is spiked.
Warriors is less predictable as you have to watch the battlefield to see them spike.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 24, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Really?
I don't think so.
But what I don't like in sins is that their combos are so terribly predictable. When they lay down their Expose or SP, you know quickly who is spiked.
Warriors is less predictable as you have to watch the battlefield to see them spike.

They do, a sin 'spike' takes like 3-4 seconds depnding on what chain you use and wether or not you have tigerstance, a warrior spike is much faster.

Master Ketsu · Oct 24, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Way to judge an entire class on one build guys.

SP sin =/= Sins in general.

Legendary Shiz · Oct 24, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Way to judge an entire class on one build guys.

SP sin =/= Sins in general.

But SP sins have the fastest spikes out of all sin spikes (I believe), since SP is an insta-snare.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 24, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Way to judge an entire class on one build guys.

SP sin =/= Sins in general.

True, there's dancing dagger sins too.

Riotgear · Oct 24, 2007, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Dual Clumsiness means you've got two Illusion members burying Siphon Speeds making ganks easy and the tree even more difficult to shut down. That's about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Way to judge an entire class on one build guys.

Because I see a huge variety of Assassin builds.

BlackSephir · Oct 24, 2007, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Because I see a huge variety of Assassin builds.

Yeah, well, people thought like that before. Then Shatter Assass started screwing up block-meta and that wasn't good either 'omg non-sp assass useful, nerf pl0x'.

Master Ketsu · Oct 24, 2007, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Because I see a huge variety of Assassin builds.

Thats because the alternative builds take too much skill to use, and suck too much before the sin learns how to use him: Result: Every cookie-cutter-n00b gets into the mindset that Sins HAVE TO BE "THIS" and become unwilling to try new things. Hell, Shattering assault sins were worth using a long time before people actually used them. It just took the community forever to realize it because any sin that made the suggestion "hey guys why dont I use Shattering assault with unblockable skills for our enchant removal" would get a "STFU NOOB JUST BE SP".

Their are plenty of very good sin builds based off of moebius strike. Ive even seen a few successful builds based on [skill]siphon strength[/skill].

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 25, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Thats because the alternative builds take too much skill to use, and suck too much before the sin learns how to use him: Result: Every cookie-cutter-n00b gets into the mindset that Sins HAVE TO BE "THIS" and become unwilling to try new things. Hell, Shattering assault sins were worth using a long time before people actually used them. It just took the community forever to realize it because any sin that made the suggestion "hey guys why dont I use Shattering assault with unblockable skills for our enchant removal" would get a "STFU NOOB JUST BE SP".

Their are plenty of very good sin builds based off of moebius strike. Ive even seen a few successful builds based on [skill]siphon strength[/skill].

You have no idea what you're talking about.

There's only a handful (if you're severely disfigured) of assassin builds that aren't completely terrible at mid-top level GvG, none of them take a considerable amount of skill to use.

Riotgear · Oct 25, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Yeah, well, people thought like that before. Then Shatter Assass started screwing up block-meta and that wasn't good either 'omg non-sp assass useful, nerf pl0x'.

Shattering Assault, while still potentially problem-causing, mostly evaporated after the recent patch damaged blockway, now it's back to good 'ol button-mash spike with SP.

And top guilds don't run SP because it's easy, they run it because the damage output on it is ridiculous.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 25, 2007, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Shattering Assault, while still potentially problem-causing, mostly evaporated after the recent patch damaged blockway, now it's back to good 'ol button-mash spike with SP.

And top guilds don't run SP because it's easy, they run it because the damage output on it is ridiculous.

Top guilds don't run it, just reno and they do indeed run it because it's easy.

erk · Oct 25, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Warriors spike harder than assasins too. be quiet.

A typical Warrior spike combo of Eviscerate ->Executioner's Strike ->Agonizing Chop whilst under Frenzy does only about 210 spike damage against a 60AL unprotected target, see this thread for a details: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10211490

You would be hard pressed to get a sin spike combo with only 210 damage, you would have to interrupt/block his chain somehow. A typical sin combo can be more like 500 damage but it can take several seconds which is good for soloing NPC's but too long for the flag stand solo, so they still have to spike with others like warriors do.

You can get a pair of sins spiking two targets at the flag stand if they can find a lowish target or get midline in on the spikes eg. a Sin and and the midline spike one target, then the other sin jumps straight for the Infuser when he goes low. That works pretty well if you can counter the blocks.

Riotgear · Oct 25, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Top guilds don't run it, just reno and they do indeed run it because it's easy.

There are several running it, go hop on Obs right now, there's [PETO] Running dual SP+tree+dual inept vs. [DoM] Running dual SP+tree+inept+curses necro. RenO is hardly alone.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 25, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

There are several running it, go hop on Obs right now, there's [PETO] Running dual SP+tree+dual inept+three monks vs. [DoM] Running dual SP+tree+inept+curses necro+three monks. RenO is hardly alone.

Well clearly your definition of 'top guilds' differs from mine, both PETO and DoM are absolutely terrible.

twicky_kid · Oct 25, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

You would be hard pressed to get a sin spike combo with only 210 damage, you would have to interrupt/block his chain somehow. A typical sin combo can be more like 500 damage but it can take several seconds which is good for soloing NPC's but too long for the flag stand solo, so they still have to spike with others like warriors do.

You are comparing a 3 hit combo from a war to a 6 hit combo from a sin. 200 or so of the dmg is coming from steel blades alone. The main difference is dmg compression. I don't need a full 500 from my war to effectively kill a target I just need the dmg as fast as possible to give the opposing monk less time to catch the spike.

Where a war can stand in the frontline and overextend a sin cannot. Sins can shadow step in but have problems getting out while doing a long combo. At the stand they are junk. If you take a sin you must redesign your entire build just to entertain their presence.

Where Sins really shine is the current ATs because you know what maps you will be on. That allows you to change your build to exploit the map.

In the end comparing the two in such a one dimensional way doesn't do either justice.

Riotgear · Oct 25, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

When I say "top" I generally mean top 100, it's not exactly the best of the best, but it's certainly a point where you could say that everyone really knows what they're doing, and is capable of beating some pretty damn good teams even when they're not running idiot-friendly builds.

[rawr] didn't fare too well against it yesterday and won primarily because of Shields Up+Splinter making the huge NPC handicap irrelevant. Well, that and some really top-notch play during VOD after the NPCs were flattened.

Master Ketsu · Oct 25, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

You have no idea what you're talking about.

There's only a handful (if you're severely disfigured) of assassin builds that aren't completely terrible at mid-top level GvG, none of them take a considerable amount of skill to use.

Ahhh yes, the infamous "if it isnt being used it clearly must not be good" typical Cookie-cutter-scrub mentality.

Id bet all my ectos that you didnt even try to think of a differant build or how to use those skills, or even test them for that matter.

Living Parasite · Oct 25, 2007, 02:19 AM // 02:19

There aren't that many good sin builds. It isn't cookie-cutter-scrub mentality, it's FACT that sins are limited in their skill choices.

Master Ketsu · Oct 25, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Parasite

There aren't that many good sin builds. It isn't cookie-cutter-scrub mentality, it's FACT that sins are limited in their skill choices.

Its true that alot of sins skills are fluff that unless changed will never see the light of day on a good bar, but they are hardly limited to the degree where their class can be judged on the SP sin build alone.

Which is especially fail since SP sins arent even that good compared to some of the sin builds ive rolled with and seen.

A random Quick casting enchant+Dismiss condition timed to go off when the deep wound hits >>>> SP sins.