Curse

moriz · Oct 21, 2007, 01:40 AM // 01:40

your guild hall change probably won't work either. that will involve changing the guild halls, which as far as i know, only happened once in GW history. it's much more difficult to change the guild halls since it will get the map designers involved as well, not just izzy.

limiting the number of copies of skills used is never a good idea. a better bandaid fix would be to limit the allowed skills down to a specific list, while the broken skills are left off of the list to await fixing.

Alex the Great · Oct 21, 2007, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i don't ever remembering reading somewhere that i'm not allowed to change my opinion. my original post was not specific enough, so wrote up another one to clarify.

instead of trying to attack me, try actually contributing something.

instead of trying to attack him, you don't you accually contribute something?

yup, the chess game is unbalanced, but any game is unbalanced becuase not eeryone playing it has exactly the same skill level, but all we need is for 1 or 2 builds not to be definative, or 1 or 2 skills to be nessesary.

the solutuion, blanket nerf all passive defense, and then blanket nerf damage in general to slow the game down. The reason passive defense is so widely needed is because more streamlined, effective damage sources are being used.

soooooo NERF DAMAGE AND PASSIVE DEFENSE FOR A SLOWER, MORE TACTICAL GUILD WARS (just add water)

moriz · Oct 21, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

you are so off topic.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 22, 2007, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Any direct damage or AoE skill becomes significantly better when there are mass equiped. It's called a spike team. Look at guild #16 [NoT] with 7 x Blood Spike 1 x Monk.

You realise that the people that play on [NoT] bought the guild from the people who got it up there and have only been going down in rank since right?

Quote:

Paragons are over rated, lots of things have better DPS, anyone can choose to carry "Shields Up" if the really want to annoy other Paragons and archers. As for the extra +10 armor they get over Assassins, Dervishes, and Rangers, it's trivial, their main armor difference is that they default to carrying a shield, and cast "Watch Yourself" when the other classes don't bother too.

Nothing comes close to paragon DPS taking into consideration the ranged attack and the ridiculous armor level they have (even taking into account cracked armor, which btw was a retarded change and hardly adressed the issue at all)

Quote:

I have seen Paragon's running as hammers in GvG with Backbreaker and Aggresive Refrain as their speed buff, a warrior does a better spike.

Just because people run it doesn't mean it's good, and just because it doesnt have as strong a spike doesnt mean it's worse. (hammer paragons however are pretty terrible)

Quote:

I have measured a Paragon/W cruel spear build on the Master of Damage and many other builds do far more sustainable DPS. The only thing good about the Paragon is the introduction of spears as the first practical one handed ranged physical weapon so you can still carry a shield, everything else is pretty ordinary.

The issue with paragons isn't just DPS, it's DPS combined with ranged attack and ridiculously high armor as well as pretty much unlimited energy, those issues have only partly been adressed in the skill update.

The watch yourself/gfte changes are moderately effective in limiting the energy management of a paragon however I'd rather see the real issue (leadership) get adressed.

Reduced armor is nice though cracked armor seems like a really poor way of implementing this, even with cracked armor they still have 86 armor (before watch yourself and the shield mod).

Bringing shields up is a stupid counter to paragons because it pretty much means you have to run a paragon yourself.

And Zuranthium, stop trying to be Ian Boyd.

Zuranthium · Oct 22, 2007, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

your guild hall change probably won't work either. that will involve changing the guild halls, which as far as i know, only happened once in GW history. it's much more difficult to change the guild halls since it will get the map designers involved as well, not just izzy.

Yeah, I'm pretty aware of that. Wasn't the question I asked, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

And Zuranthium, stop trying to be Ian Boyd.

I really have no idea who you're talking about. None at all.

~Z

Guillaume De Sonoma · Oct 23, 2007, 01:43 AM // 01:43

At least Ian Boyd had an excuse, he did not play the game.

My general concern with paragons is their ability to become and energy machine with leadership and the skills they can pump out with it. I feel like their DPS isn't a big concern and their huge amount of armor has been delt with rather well.

Riotgear · Oct 23, 2007, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Paragons' huge armor will have been dealt with when it becomes anything less than a complete waste of time to attack them. That is not the case yet.

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 23, 2007, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Paragons' huge armor will have been dealt with when it becomes anything less than a complete waste of time to attack them. That is not the case yet.

Depends, cracked armor screams "body blow me!" and if they're p/mes they drop like a warrior...At least we are off to a start

erk · Oct 23, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Paragons' huge armor will have been dealt with when it becomes anything less than a complete waste of time to attack them. That is not the case yet.

Paragons have 80AL, Derv, Sin, Ranger have 70AL, the difference between 70AL and 80AL is .841 vs .707 damage multiplier, quite noticeable, but I certainly wouldn't consider it huge when a insignia can get =10AL for you. As I mentioned previously, the main Paragon AL bonus is the shield, there is nothing stopping other classes carrying a shield. I often run a Ra/P with spear/shield and Beastmaster insignias to give as good AL as a Paragon, even better against elemental damage.

Bankai · Oct 23, 2007, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Paragons have 80AL, Derv, Sin, Ranger have 70AL, the difference between 70AL and 80AL is .841 vs .707 damage multiplier, quite noticeable, but I certainly wouldn't consider it huge when a insignia can get =10AL for you. As I mentioned previously, the main Paragon AL bonus is the shield, there is nothing stopping other classes carrying a shield. I often run a Ra/P with spear/shield and Beastmaster insignias to give as good AL as a Paragon, even better against elemental damage.

There is something against other classes carrying a shield. If they do, they can't attack.

Scythes, daggers and bows are two-handed. And we don't want spear-chucking sins and dervishes.

Div · Oct 23, 2007, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Paragons have 80AL, Derv, Sin, Ranger have 70AL, the difference between 70AL and 80AL is .841 vs .707 damage multiplier, quite noticeable, but I certainly wouldn't consider it huge when a insignia can get =10AL for you. As I mentioned previously, the main Paragon AL bonus is the shield, there is nothing stopping other classes carrying a shield. I often run a Ra/P with spear/shield and Beastmaster insignias to give as good AL as a Paragon, even better against elemental damage.

Interesting parts highlighted. 'Nuff said.

Plus, even if other classes carry a shield, they'll only get +8 instead of +16.

Keithark · Oct 23, 2007, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Interesting parts highlighted. 'Nuff said.

Plus, even if other classes carry a shield, they'll only get +8 instead of +16.

Not true, they can spend atts to get the +16 just like anyone else. You may not want to spend them or whatever but it is possible. Everyone keeps saying make Paragons less damage and less armor and less passive defense (basically you are wanting them to be a ranger) as I said in the past if you going to make them be like a ranger then add a pip of energy regen to them if not then leave them the heck alone (except remove cracked armor and just make it -20 armor so hero's will stop removing it)

Bankai · Oct 23, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

So what's your point? That it's possible for other classes to have the same armor, while having a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing aweful build with no massive defense or damage output?

yum · Oct 23, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

Not true, they can spend atts to get the +16 just like anyone else. You may not want to spend them or whatever but it is possible. Everyone keeps saying make Paragons less damage and less armor and less passive defense (basically you are wanting them to be a ranger) as I said in the past if you going to make them be like a ranger then add a pip of energy regen to them if not then leave them the heck alone (except remove cracked armor and just make it -20 armor so hero's will stop removing it)

Do you realize that this is pvp section? BTW, I don't see how a para with lesser def,atk and support is close to a ranger by any mean.

Back to topic: the idea of giving frontline classes like assasins and derv only 70 AL and crappy defensive equipment while blessing a midline class like paragon with uber defense and offense capicities is stupid.

AR: For 20...120 s, all party members attack 25% faster but have -30 armor. This Echo is reapplied every time you use a skill. <== I like that fix.

Shmanka · Oct 23, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Interesting parts highlighted. 'Nuff said.

Plus, even if other classes carry a shield, they'll only get +8 instead of +16.

Actually only +4 is the shield isn't purple or gold.... yes another ANet flaw

moriz · Oct 23, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

incorrect. blue shields give +8 if you don't meet the req now. this was changed a long time ago.

however, i wonder how a AL 14 (or 15) shield will function if i don't meet the req. would it be +8, or would it be +7?

moko · Oct 23, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

GW rounds down afaik.

Keithark · Oct 23, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

Do you realize that this is pvp section? BTW, I don't see how a para with lesser def,atk and support is close to a ranger by any mean.

Back to topic: the idea of giving frontline classes like assasins and derv only 70 AL and crappy defensive equipment while blessing a midline class like paragon with uber defense and offense capicities is stupid.

AR: For 20...120 s, all party members attack 25% faster but have -30 armor. This Echo is reapplied every time you use a skill. <== I like that fix.

Yes do you not realize that you can take hero's in PvP when you don't have 8 ppl online in your guild? I know, I know "well no high ranked team uses hero's..yada yada yada" well guess what, there are more people that are not "high ranked teams" than there are high ranked teams so they should make it better for more people not just for the high ranked and smurfs.

I agree derv at 70 armor is BS, sin is fine they are not to stay in the frontline they are to hit and run so their AL is fine imo.

"ar: 20-120 s, all party......." that is just silly, and if so worried about "passive" skills then how about LoD? Allies under 80% health are healed for X health, but if you cast it, any allies over xx% health are brought down to 80% That would make it a little less passive button pushing but nobody is going to be up for that because it is one of the wonderfull holy trinity of classes. Well those are all boring I like the derv and paragon because of the amount of different builds you can run with them and i'm sick of them getting all the nerfs. If you are against a 2 paragon team and you can't get kills because of their defense then freaking learn how to split it works.

pah01 · Oct 23, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Really what is the point in the dervish or the assassin in competitive play anyway?

Warriors already fill the role of "KILL STUFF" and to be fair the warrior is a really well designed class that arenenet never intended to be the killing class anyway.

Its probably a good thing that they didnt design the warrior to kill things because the would have RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed it up.

The Sin

There is no hope in the assasin class. There is no potential for the assasin to be a threat in an 8v8 matchup that even comes close to the output of the current axe warrior. There is absolutely nothing that this class offers that is even close to the current axe warrior by providing a different/maybe interesting route to kill shit.

I dont know why people run two assasins on a split when they could run two powerful and dangerous warriors supported by a monk/rit to stay in the enemy base and kill shit.

OH TELEPORTING IS GUD RIGHT!!!!11LOSE

The dervish

Avatar of Melandru/wearying strike(maybe reapers sweep in some gimmick builds) is the only tool that the dervish has.

The rest of the class is a pile of crap that doesnt have anything else any good to offer.

If I was Izzy and some guy came to me with those classes I would have censored the badmouthing out:<.

Joe

Bankai · Oct 23, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

This is PvP, and ANet should balance the game about REAL PvP, and not balance it around the AI of heroes.

Edit: this was in reply to Keithark.