Curse

Master Ketsu · Oct 16, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

What Id say is increase Recharge on keystone to 15, and then make the cast time 3 seconds. This makes it somewhat more counterable with basic skills that get run anyways, since it would make it interruptible even with FC.

DIH49 · Oct 16, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

The main thing is really Complicate though. That's easy to fit on a Dom Mesmer bar, and it totally destroys the Keystone build, so it might keep it in check. The main problem after that though is that you're left with a build that's either owned by 1 skill or owning if that skill isn't in place, which is bad.

Signets require no energy on activation.

Razz L Dazzle · Oct 16, 2007, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Yes, signet fake wars verse the complicate dom mesmer would tend to favor the Keystone guy. The dom mesmer has one chance every 20 seconds to make sure he gets the signet if not the signet guy wins the battle, infinite fakes with signets= great drama. Well not really.

Patccmoi · Oct 16, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

Signets require no energy on activation.

I can see the point and it sure is valid, but it must still be possible to hit Sig of Humility? It's still around 2s to cast usually, and if you hit it late in the cast time you should have fairly good chances. The guy can only stand there fake casting for so long if your frontline is asleep.

DIH49 · Oct 16, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

I can see the point and it sure is valid, but it must still be possible to hit Sig of Humility? It's still around 2s to cast usually, and if you hit it late in the cast time you should have fairly good chances. The guy can only stand there fake casting for so long if your frontline is asleep.

Signet mesmers have 86AL on top of 10 additional from whatever bonus their shield is. They can afford to sit there and tank warriors pretty much indefinitely. And, while humsig is still a reasonably easy interrupt, the signet mes knows you only have one skill he has to worry about and that you can only use it on his one skill. As long as he's careful every time he uses humsig, the balance of power is in his favor. Conversely, the defending mesmer has to spend inordinate amounts of time microing the enemy signet mesmer to make sure he gets that crucial interrupt in. Honestly, I wouldn't have a problem with keystone if it weren't for how it stupidly lets you spam skills through diversion etc.

Ensign · Oct 16, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Humsig is roughly a 1c under Symbolic Celerity, so not entirely trivial to interrupt.

Keystone is only a problem because it indirectly buffed Humsig, which is arguably the best Mesmer skill in the game right now; with Keystone you can maintain Humsig on two characters, which is incredibly strong.

DIH49 · Oct 16, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Humsig is roughly a 1c under Symbolic Celerity, so not entirely trivial to interrupt.

Keystone is only a problem because it indirectly buffed Humsig, which is arguably the best Mesmer skill in the game right now; with Keystone you can maintain Humsig on two characters, which is incredibly strong.

And, of course, humsig is only so powerful because of LoD, Bsurge, and I guess keystone. But I do not think we'll be seeing any changes to anything besides keystone (I personally advocate for a significant move away from LoD, but I'm a realist enough to admit the snowball's chance of it occuring), so we may as well lobby for that.

Greedy Gus · Oct 16, 2007, 07:55 PM // 19:55

It begs the question, why would they want a full signet build to be played? Does it improve the game in any imaginable way? Signets are an interesting game mechanic to lighten an expensive bar, balanced by longer cast times (typically) and/or recharge or effect. There's no reasonable point in breaking that just for variety's sake.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 16, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

It begs the question, why would they want a full signet build to be played? Does it improve the game in any imaginable way? Signets are an interesting game mechanic to lighten an expensive bar, balanced by longer cast times (typically) and/or recharge or effect. There's no reasonable point in breaking that just for variety's sake.

Making a 'signet build' viable has always been a goal of Arenanet's, for some reason. They've consistently added elites to the game where you would need a heavy or full signet bar to make them work (Keystone Signet, Scribes Insight, ect.) Of course, now they've finally made a build like that viable, it turns out that a caster who isn't limited by energy or recharges blows everything else away. Who would have guessed?

While the Humil spam is scary on that bar, Sig of Distractions is another big part of it. An interrupt that disables spells for ~30 seconds, on half the recharge of Distracting Shot? Yes please.

It's a testament to keystone's power that condition builds are to strong right now, despite the presence of two elites which normally shut those builds down. You don't have to carefully shut down RC and LoD as a condi build, you just bring a signet mesmer and the enemy monks don't get to use their elite skills.

It's unfortunate, because condi pressure builds with Keystone wars could probably turn into a fun meta. I expect Keystone will be nerfed in the next few days though - it's broken enough that even Izzy can't keep it in the game.

Van Goghs Ear · Oct 16, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

In my eyes, after playing a ranger against a signet mesmer last night, my biggest issue with the keystone build is that it allows you to play poorly. It makes conventional shutdown completely trivial.

I can dshot sig humil, I can dshot sig weary...but the fact still remains my disable on those skills just gets rinsed away by keystone. I can dshot keystone if I'm lucky...it managed to happen once in a match we played against mush, but by then it was just too late. Diversion? You have 5 skills on your bar you can use to trigger the diversion off, and then simply use keystone to clean it up.

So my options become pack complicate on my bar, or run a hex heavy build with ignorance and rust, or try to humil the humil mesmer? No thanks.

I don't think keystone is necessarily broken, I just think that the fact that the game forces us to rely on elites on monks (such as lod) because all the other skills are total garbage makes it a lot stronger than it should be.

Riotgear · Oct 16, 2007, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Keystone builds are what happens when Izzy mindlessly buffs things into viability whether they're good ideas or not. Wait, that sounds familiar...

I'm not sure it would be a problem without Distraction and Humility (and I'm not sure Humility would be a problem if it weren't for overdependence on LoD), but right now it's kind of ridiculous.

twicky_kid · Oct 16, 2007, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Good to see a number of viable builds in the meta right now.

I really like the keystone mes. Wouldn't keystone balance itself? Keystone vs Keystone they could humsig the opposing mes to shutdown keystone. It does force you to bring a keystone mes which overtime is a bad thing. Don't want another bring it or lose to it kind of meta.

Riotgear · Oct 16, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Keystone balancing itself out with Humility is sort of like Paragons balancing themselves out with Shields Up.

twicky_kid · Oct 16, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Keystone balancing itself out with Humility is sort of like Paragons balancing themselves out with Shields Up.

That was exactly my point. Bring it or lose to it.

Right now its fine but over time it could hurt the meta. Give it some time for players to figure out how to counter it.

Master Ketsu · Oct 16, 2007, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Sig of humility is a great skill but its really OP in the current meta when it can be spammed like this. Current meta Monks depend on their elite, a LoD monk without his LoD is a dead team.

Quote:

Humsig is roughly a 1c under Symbolic Celerity, so not entirely trivial to interrupt.

Keystone is only a problem because it indirectly buffed Humsig, which is arguably the best Mesmer skill in the game right now; with Keystone you can maintain Humsig on two characters, which is incredibly strong.

Quote:

In my eyes, after playing a ranger against a signet mesmer last night, my biggest issue with the keystone build is that it allows you to play poorly. It makes conventional shutdown completely trivial.

I can dshot sig humil, I can dshot sig weary...but the fact still remains my disable on those skills just gets rinsed away by keystone. I can dshot keystone if I'm lucky...it managed to happen once in a match we played against mush, but by then it was just too late. Diversion? You have 5 skills on your bar you can use to trigger the diversion off, and then simply use keystone to clean it up.

This is why Im suggesting the cast time nerf on Keystone to 3 sec. If Keystone can be viably interrupted, it wont be that big of a problem but would still be a viable build. Sig of humility can be dshotted/disabled but Keystone brings it right back up.

And also, the recharge up to 15 ( at least ) . so you dont absolutely have to bring interrupts.

Neo-LD · Oct 16, 2007, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

That was exactly my point. Bring it or lose to it.

Thats retarded. Paragons werent/arent a desirable part of Guild Wars and neither are Signet Spammers. Nerf it to oblivion so no one has to bring it or lose to it.

Master Ketsu · Oct 17, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Thats retarded. Paragons werent/arent a desirable part of Guild Wars and neither are Signet Spammers. Nerf it to oblivion so no one has to bring it or lose to it.

Nerfing stuff into oblivion just means their will be less viable builds AKA more cookie cutters. In the end you dont fix the balance you just narrow the playing field.

Better to nerf it in a way so that it can still be viable, just not significantly more viable then other shutdown builds.

lacasner · Oct 17, 2007, 12:42 AM // 00:42

It just got reverted to how it was before, so I don't think the build is viable anymore anyway. (keystone that is)

Neo-LD · Oct 17, 2007, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Nerfing stuff into oblivion just means their will be less viable builds AKA more cookie cutters. In the end you dont fix the balance you just narrow the playing field.

Better to nerf it in a way so that it can still be viable, just not significantly more viable then other shutdown builds.

Whats so bad about cookie cutters? Proper balance is more important than diversity.

twicky_kid · Oct 17, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

It just got reverted to how it was before, so I don't think the build is viable anymore anyway. (keystone that is)

Probably not.

I would have put it at 15 recharge before putting it back at 20.