Curse

Winterclaw · Oct 06, 2007, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Just the other day I was thinking what would happen if you had 8 warriors with cure hex, mending touch, and LoD. Maybe I'll fast talk 7 others into trying it out in HA this weekend.

Phades · Oct 06, 2007, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Key to getting out of this mess is rebalancing the 'red bars go down' and the 'red bars go up' aspects of the game; the ridiculous spike damage that physicals can put out needs to be toned down, and healing needs realistic alternatives to reduce dependence on LoD.

If the class specific healing alternatives outside of healing sig were not as much of a joke as they are, LoD would not be as "required" as it is in the organized 8v8 formats. Of course including such measures for survival for damage clean up waters down the focus that many templates have and raises the question of overal efficiency.

My personal view on the aspect of the "heal party" setup has been that the damage was always too easy to spread in its various forms and requiring a skill with the range and potential efficientcy that the style of healing possesses was a bad game mechanic from the start. Yet, skills that required specific range for healing enmass were left by the wayside and never made playable due to the existance of heal party. Other skills followed a similar pattern in order to compensate for how easily damage could be spread such as shouts, ageis, and spirits in general, with very little draw back outside of inital setup cost. However other skills that had fixed locations or smaller areas of effect get lumped into maximum effect, due to the risk of being over powered by compensating for the existance of the other party wide effects being balanced on a 8v8 scale. This is one of the original "issues" that the game was built upon and at times exploited in order to create "interesting" matches when the championships rolled around.

The other side of the coin was the "easy ranged spikes" that were dealt with in one form or another that either worked and the team won or failed and nothing happened for long periods of time.

DreamWind · Oct 06, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

If you think folks at A-Net are ignorant and uncaring, I think that's a mistake.

I'm not so sure about them not being ignorant. There has been a ridiculous amount of evidence over the past couple years suggesting that Anet has no idea how to run a competitive game properly. Perhaps thats a bit harsh but that is really how I feel about the situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

But I think in the grand scheme of things, we're not important enough to deserve any great consideration anymore from the powers that be, and that most of the lower-hierarchy folks have very limited power.

I'm not so sure they aren't uncaring either. Take players who enjoyed past PvP like me. I bought all collectors editions and shipped Anet money directly on occasions in the past through their store. Now all of the sudden I am not important enough to deserve consideration anymore because I'm not in the majority playerbase. Sure its simply a business decision, but its also pretty damn uncaring if you ask me.

Div · Oct 06, 2007, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by just rude

hire ensign.

Or, at the very least, hire someone who actually does game balance and/or care about PvP? I could balance a skill a day and the game will be much better than now.

The biggest problem they face with skill balancing is criticism from the PvE community. With every skill balance (even if more skills end up being buffed), there will be hundreds of whining threads about how PvP wrecked some carefully thought out PvE buld. With each increasing thread less people will be tempted to buy the game, and Anet loses money. That's one of the underlying problems with skill balance, and not just the difficulty in balancing a billion skills.

Sinful Doom · Oct 06, 2007, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Where did I blame the players?

I never blamed you for anything, I made a general statement based on what you posted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Well, to be really honest, I can think of many reasons why I won't suggest GW to friends as a PvP game. And game balance is on the list. But not even close to the top. More like something to add to the end. Like "oh yes, the balance is bad too". The game has bigger problems then skill balance. Always had. And Anet seems to be doing the right thing and not wasting too many resources to something that can't be fixed. Really, ask yourself. If the game was perfectly balanced at the moment, would you suggest it to a friend then?

I came to this game from a friends suggestion in beta for many reasons. It was designed as a PvP game where PvE was mearly a tool to PvP. Remember capping elites prior to buying with faction? Farming runes hopeing to get a superior vigor unlocked for use in PvP. The desert missions were built around situation's you would face in tombs. Favor was gained through PvP etc... Coming from games like Diablo2 LoD and SWG, where who had the best equipment was everything, this was a great choice.

TBH this game would be incredibly top of the line if only all skills were balanced and yes if that were true I would endorse to people I know. I honestly cant think of anything outside of imbalanced skills that makes me want to quit this game.

And yes, Anet probably cant fix this game at this point but they sure wouldnt be wasting their time IMO trying to make it a little better with proper skill balance.

Winterclaw · Oct 06, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Or, at the very least, hire someone who actually does game balance and/or care about PvP? I could balance a skill a day and the game will be much better than now.

IMO you guys are looking at it wrong. I mean why would Anet waste money keeping people around who can't balance the game? Chances are this come from upper-management and not just one bad balance guy. In that situation, hiring ensign, no matter how much he knows about the game or even if he really does have a better idea what should be done will not solve the politics problem. If they hire someone to do changes X, Y, and Z and those three things aren't done, they fire that guy and replace him with someone who will do exactly what they want.

It is how businesses tend to work.

twicky_kid · Oct 06, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Great post as usual.

Btw NF is more like Mirridon. Just about an entire deck got banned not just a few cards. Banned in T2 at that (highly rare).

A nerf to Aggressive Refrain will go a long ways in putting paragons in check. Less dmg, less party wide criticals from GFTE, and less energy.

I don't know how you can balance scythes. Higher crit chance than other weapons. Deals 90+ dmg on a crit. Kiting isn't as effective considering the higher chance to crit while fleeing. Most dervish stay in constant speed boost.

Sin's dmg output is simply crazy for a single character. Not to mention GFS, Wild Strike, and Shattering Assault ripping through all defenses and prots every 4 seconds.

Winterclaw · Oct 06, 2007, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Btw NF is more like Mirridon.

What is Mirridon and why did it get banned?

Riotgear · Oct 06, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

If you think folks at A-Net are ignorant and uncaring, I think that's a mistake.

I don't think they're ignorant and uncaring, I think they're incompetent, personally. Balance is continually getting thrown out the window for the "everything needs to be viable" mentality and prioritizing "cool" over "balanced." The first is why Conjure is in its current form, the second is why Izzy won't nerf Melandru or Deadly Paradox.

Oh yeah, and the new GFS+Wild+Shattering brings back haunting memories of Grenth.

Sun Fired Blank · Oct 06, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Sinful_Doom: I still don't get it. I say that Guild Wars doesn't sell because of PVP, and you ask if players or A-Net is responsible for the decline of PvP? I'm really not sure how to answer that.

Dreamwind: There's a difference between ignorant and incompetent. If you listen to many of the update justifications, you can hear a great deal of sensibility. For example, from recent memory, when Isaiah Cartwright was going to nerf the SP chain, he said (paraphrasing): "the problem with the chain is not one skill, but that the entire chain makes other alternatives unviable." If you listen to Ryan Scott on the Gladiator changes, he said (paraphrasing once more) that "leaving is a problem with focusing on ten games instead of the current game; a fix requires a complete structural change." Many times (but not always), people at Arena-Net give you the perfect conceptual answers for a problem. And then they implement a solution that completely defies their sensible answer and makes your brain explode. I'm more inclined to say they're incompetent than ignorant and uncaring, more in line with Riotgear

So far as disregarding the PvP wants and needs: it is uncaring. But we wrote them the check and they've already cashed it. In the strictest of terms, they made the product and we've purchased it. Their only reason to update the game after that is to encourage other players to join and retain a player base for Guild Wars 2. Since PvP in Guild Wars doesn't have any notable rewards, since everything that I've heard about Guild Wars 2 concerns features that are predominantly PvE, since I've heard nothing serious from Arena-Net about PvP features in either competitive articles or commemorative speeches, I very much assume they do not care that much about PvP, and that their primary focus is PvE.

And finally, on NF being Mirrodin or Urza's Block: I disagree. The very release of Urza's Block completely destroyed every format. Everything stagnated: in Vintage, in Legacy, in Extended, in Standard, in Block, you simply played a combo deck or you lost. Even casual play saw the introduction of stupidly powered nonsense. Entire games in every format were dictated by simple but lucky plays, the first draw and the first move. That sounds a lot like PvP in GW as I see it.

DreamWind · Oct 06, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

There's a difference between ignorant and incompetent.

Fair enough. I'll go with incompetent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

If you listen to many of the update justifications, you can hear a great deal of sensibility.

And then they implement a solution that completely defies their sensible answer and makes your brain explode.

Last I heard (and I could be wrong but I'm going on what people have told me), skills like Melandru and a few others were not getting nerfed because they liked it the way it was. I see no sense in that justification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

And finally, on NF being Mirrodin or Urza's Block: I disagree. The very release of Urza's Block completely destroyed every format.

Some would argue NF destroyed every format in GW also.

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 06, 2007, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

The biggest problem they face with skill balancing is criticism from the PvE community. With every skill balance (even if more skills end up being buffed), there will be hundreds of whining threads about how PvP wrecked some carefully thought out PvE buld. With each increasing thread less people will be tempted to buy the game, and Anet loses money. That's one of the underlying problems with skill balance, and not just the difficulty in balancing a billion skills.

I think that time has passed, furthermore many companies have sold millions regardless of listening to the community even if their game is borked in someway to the hardcore fans. The biggest problem was and still is having the skills cross linked between two totally different realms of play. I don't think many will be even looking to buy a 2 year old game with out dated graphics, invest 100$+ and still have to unlock the hordes of skills. Many PVers cry, but when do they truly just put a game down because of updates? Their lack of interest will come when he/she has what they want, full unlock pretty items and max lvl, nothing less... On the other hand when updates displease your competitive community and it directly affects the game play, those types will leave.

Blame the Monks · Oct 06, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

PvEers will play as long as there is a free slot machine and/or a treadmill.
PvPers will play as long as there is meaningful competition.

That's why the PvEers are still going strong and why the PvPers left months ago.

Riotgear · Oct 06, 2007, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

The biggest problem they face with skill balancing is criticism from the PvE community. With every skill balance (even if more skills end up being buffed), there will be hundreds of whining threads about how PvP wrecked some carefully thought out PvE buld. With each increasing thread less people will be tempted to buy the game, and Anet loses money. That's one of the underlying problems with skill balance, and not just the difficulty in balancing a billion skills.

It's coming from parts of the PvP community too, the overarching bad mentality is the misguided unconditional "buffs good, nerfs bad" one. There are a lot of people that really believe that buffing counters is a universally-better solution than nerfing something. That mentality is also responsible for the "buff everything until it's playable" line of thinking that's produced stuff like Discord and more recently, Conjure.

Legendary Shiz · Oct 06, 2007, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

PvEers will play as long as there is a free slot machine and/or a treadmill.
PvPers will play as long as there is meaningful competition.

That's why the PvEers are still going strong and why the PvPers left months ago.

kaBingo

12 characters ftl

Bankai · Oct 06, 2007, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

It's coming from parts of the PvP community too, the overarching bad mentality is the misguided unconditional "buffs good, nerfs bad" one. There are a lot of people that really believe that buffing counters is a universally-better solution than nerfing something. That mentality is also responsible for the "buff everything until it's playable" line of thinking that's produced stuff like Discord and more recently, Conjure.

Buffing counters is actually one of the worst ways to bring balance to the game, because then Anet practically says "You have to bring these and these specific counter to beat this build, otherwise you'll lose".

Akaraxle · Oct 06, 2007, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Thanks, Ensign. I've been posting on TGH and #gwp trying to advocate my point of view on why blockway is necessary at this point, but you took a different and more effective path in your reasoning.

Now, to get things fixed...

frojack · Oct 06, 2007, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Yeah. Power creep after power creep...

I used to always point at monks for causing this situation. I figured monks should just not be able to keep people alive indefinitely. They are a delaying tactic to give your team the time to crush the opposition. Naturally they do function like this, but I always thought that they still kept people alive just a little too long.

Then came the solo gank guys who made positioning less important, and then the physical explosion in the third game (around 100 damage regular crits, followed by spam-able 1/2 second damage compression tools? Who's idea was that?). Not really the monks fault after all I guess...

DutchSmurf · Oct 06, 2007, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinful Doom

I honestly cant think of anything outside of imbalanced skills that makes me want to quit this game.

I can think of a few.
1) needing to spend lots of time and money before you can even think of starting gvg.
2) no ways to find a decent guild ingame. And no way at all to find a decent guild without some kind of rank. Which a new player won't have.
3) no voice communication ingame.
4) the insane amount of people (8 IS insane) needed to play a game, but no way to find them ingame.
5) a main format that only requires much tactics on paper. Mostly thanks to a flagstand that is that powerful that it can't be ignored. Which basically turns games into a cap flag->get morale->go try to kill the lord. While it should be about trying to get to/kill the lord in many different ways. Because holding the flagstand is that important, you again get the point Ensign made.
6) a ladder without meaning.
7) daily tournaments without meaning
8) daily tournaments with a system that doesn't work for gvg (it does for hvh)
9) a monthly tournament of which the first part is impossible to follow for the people watching AND for the people playing
10) an observer mode that is only half the observer mode of any other game I know that has one.

And I'm sure I can think of more when I have more time. As much as I agree that balancing skills on a regular base is needed, it won't solve the problems the game has. I really hope that Anet realizes this and are improving it for GW2, since GW can't really be helped anymore. Even if they hire Ensign and he balances the game perfectly, it won't help at all.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 06, 2007, 11:27 AM // 11:27

A few random thoughts...

Party-wide healing and single-target healing need to be differentiated in discussions like these, because they are reactions to different kinds of offense. Without buffing single-target heals to ridiculous levels, it should never be feasable to heal team-wide degen or AoE damage through single target heals alone. A team needs both strong single target heals and strong party-wide heals to survive. In the current meta, teams make up for the lack of single target heals with a huge amount of prot and passive defense, then focus huge amounts of disruption and effort on keeping their LoD safe.

The reason so many builds in the current meta target LoD is because it represents a single point of failure. Losing the LoD makes it impossible for a team to survive against certain kinds of offenses (AoE and degen.) Meanwhile, other forms of defense (passive blocks, active prot, and active disruption) have multiple points of failure and redundancy. This encourages teams to go after LoD, because it's much easier to shut down a single elite skill than an entire defensive network.

In order to prevent the rapid team wipes that Ensign is talking about, a defense needs to have multiple points of failure. This means that not only do single target heals and spikes need to be modified, but the mechanics of party-wide heals as well. More specifically, there need to be alternative party wide heals that can be taken alongside LoD without sacrificing too much of a build. Alternately, degen and AoE need to be changed such that they take a longer time to wipe a team. Otherwise, the defensive game becomes a losing battle to keep your LoD safe, while teams pack more and more Humilities and Power Leaks.

In other words, just creating better single target heals isn't enough. Robust, party-wide healing is also necessary for the kind of balance being discussed here.