Curse

Captain Robo · Oct 24, 2007, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Other way around. Having an energy skill with a recharge removes the skill from Frenzy, because you simply can't frenzy when it's on recharge outside of specific situations. If you do, a good team will eventually catch you with caster damage and you'll end up putting more pressure on your team.

What I mean to say is that canceling frenzy has become idiot-proof. Warriors who ran Sprint had to make important decisions when using frenzy, or else it meant their ass.

It was more limited, it was more inefficient, and therefore, it took more skill to use frenzy effectively when Sprint was your only stance cancel.

Now this skill is irrelevant, because Rush is clearly the better option for a mainline warrior, and removes the drawback of frenzy entirely.

Quote:

And Enraging Charge isn't power creep?

That was implied.

Lorekeeper · Oct 24, 2007, 02:16 AM // 02:16

power creep = ever more powerful ways of dealing dmg + ever more powerful ways of healing the dmg. (though arguable one side didnt evolve as strong as the other).

devolution of the versatile flagger build to cope with power creep of sin ganks/BA arrow ganks etc etc and given the chance to do so with introduction of LoD at the stand

= highly defensive flaggers SoR/ZB/WoR etc etc

highly defensive flaggers influenced the evolution of the flag stand warrior builds, negating the need for any proper split utility skills like mend touch or heal sig. Highly defensive flagger builds not only made splitting safer for offensive split characters like warriors it also made it easier for defending split teams... which... given the inherent advantage of defending a base... made effective splits quite difficult to pull off

= reduction in commitment to dedicated split strategies across the board.

not to mention the most recent reduction of VoD to 18min.

general move away from the split game = concentration on the 8vs8 fight at the flag stand

= lack of need for proper split utility skills

= dedicated flag stand warrior build built to keep up with power creep.

************************************************** *******

in the days of eurosplit... war+ranger+rit... not all too long ago... 1 warrior in a team at least did not have rush and simply coult not fit it in given the need for other utility skills. The mainteam warrior might have since he was safe within the reach of the flag stand monks and midliners... but the split warrior could not fit it in because he had to take other forms of utility to allow him to split better. We had bars like...

yaa, malice, sever, gash, final, heal sig, frenzy, dash, dblow/rez
yaa, mend touch, sever, gash, final, heal sig, frenzy, sprint/enraging

and various other cripslash varieties.

- these split warriors had quite noticeably lower dps at the stand. But noticeably better skirmish ability... which reduced its reliance on third party support from a flagger for example. And given the nature of flagger builds in those days... these warrior builds were necessary.

compare that build to todays split warrior build (just an example) which isnt that different from a flagstand warriors build.

shock, evis, agonising, exe, frenzy, rush, enraging, heal sig

the difference being... no need for condition removal and therefore space for rush. Which allows the warrior to continue to contribute a high level of dps at the stand. However, the lack of self condition removal decreases its skirmish potential by increasing its reliance on flag runners to give a helping hand.

the point of encouraging more split utility is not to make uber solo warrior builds... its to do several things

1) reduce the need for uber defensive flag runners that do all the healing on the split
2) increase the rubustness of the split warrior in skirmishes
3) encourage more offensively minded flag runner bars... like rits

i strongly believe that the nature of flagger builds is a significant influence on the nature of frontline builds at the stand.

a highly defensive flag runner build = 2 high dps frontliners

a flagger with offense and defensive capabilities = 1 high dps frontliner anchored at the stand + 1 low/medium dps frontliner with higher split utility

if we want to see less hack and slash frenzy spamming frontliners we will need for people to stop running such highly defensive flaggers...

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 24, 2007, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Maybe in the current environment, but one thing that I would like to see change would be this. If heal sig weren't so easy to interrupt, if BA didn't allow rangers to actually kill things, a solo-warrior split would be fairly effective mainly due to the fact that the opponent would either only be able to chase you out without actually managing to kill you (sending back almost anyone solo) or they'd have to devote 2+ people to have a chance at getting a kill.

Even splitting off for a little bit to kill a couple archers and force your opponent to send something back is better than beating on a defense that you can't break. It also adds quite a few strategic and tactical options, while just making the game more interesting IMO.

While I also miss being able to accomplish things with a solo-split, I think you misunderstand the reasons why it's no longer viable. It has very little to do with the damage of Burning Arrow, and everything to do with the relatively recent changes in the power of snare templates.

For a while after Nightfall's release, the snares carried by most teams were either unable to stop a warrior long enough to force a kill (Gale), or were easily dealt with using Mending Touch (YAA, Pin Down, Cripslash.) This allowed a warrior with Mending Touch to split off freely, never having to worry about getting punished with a snare and subsequently brought down with damage.

Recently, teams have changed to more effective snare templates. The Cripshot buff and Gale nerf both played a big role in this, as did the general realization that YAA and Cripslash bars are terrible. As a warrior, the threat of a Burning Arrow falling back on me isn't that scary, because the worst thing he can do is force me to return to my team. If a Cripshot falls on me, he's going to snare me and degen me out, and there's really nothing I can do about it.

Before Cripshot, teams that carried Water Eles could do the same thing. Split a water ele and a warrior back long enough to drop the attempted split, then proceed to powerplay your stand team.

In other words, asking for a game where warriors can split off alone is asking for a game where templates with the power to make a maintainable snare stick are not viable. Whether the game is better without strong snares is an interesting argument in itself, and probably outside the scope of this thread. The important point to understand is that the decrease in warrior splitting has nothing to do with increased damage, and everything to do with increased snaring power.

Riotgear · Oct 24, 2007, 03:35 AM // 03:35

That easily explains away the solo splitters, although splitting as a whole has fallen since early Nightfall with the exception of pre-nerf Recall abuse. There are numerous things preventing it, Healsig falling by the wayside is really just a symptom of a larger problem.

YAA falling out of favor wasn't really a result of people "realizing it was terrible" either, it was a result of it getting deservedly bludgeoned by the nerfbat. It used to be 10 seconds base with adjacent triggering range, a very easy condition to meet.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 24, 2007, 03:52 AM // 03:52

YAA was great at Nightfall's release, when no one had discovered the power of Mending Touch. Once people started running Mending Touch on every skirmish template that mattered (and RC/Draw at the stand), YAA was laughable.

Of course, Mending Touch was initially run because of YAA in large part, so I guess you could say the skill was metaed out of GvG, rather than being inherently bad. The end result is the same.

twicky_kid · Oct 24, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

I haven't seen this ran but this bar scares me.

[skill]Signet Of Illusions[/skill][skill]Energy Burn[/skill][skill]Diversion[/skill][skill]Ancestors' Rage[/skill][skill]Splinter Weapon[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Inspired Enchantment[/skill]

14 Illusion 13 FC

I can image 2 of these guys buffing the frontline, spike assist, and disruption. With inspired you can easily steal Aegis and use it effectively. Then again SigHum would devastate this bar if it ever became too popular.

Riotgear · Oct 24, 2007, 04:34 AM // 04:34

I don't think MT's power was "undiscovered" considering it was a direct upgrade from Plague Touch. Rangers were slotting it pretty early as well.

Captain Robo · Oct 24, 2007, 04:56 AM // 04:56

The way I remember it, YAA dominated for a long time, then cripslash was discovered, and YAA was strictly inferior.

Then people figured out that 8v8 meat grinders was the way to go.

Riotgear · Oct 24, 2007, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Actually nobody liked Cripslash until it got bleeding added, and then it slowly fell out of favor anyway. Conjure getting progressively nerfed eliminating the huge S&MS hits helped too. YAA was everywhere and the Nearby nerf mostly killed it.

Captain Robo · Oct 24, 2007, 05:22 AM // 05:22

I like talking about guildwars, "back in the day"

twicky_kid · Oct 24, 2007, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Cripshot getting a buff put the nail in the coffin for YAA.

moko · Oct 24, 2007, 01:06 PM // 13:06

YAA was dead long before the cripshot buff.

mending touch and the nerf to YAA killed it. then the buff to cripslash.

Bankai · Oct 24, 2007, 01:25 PM // 13:25

To make sure Rush isn't an easy cancel stance:

Executioner's strike
Axe Attack. If this attack hits, you strike for +10...34...40 damage and you lose all adrenaline.

kvndoom · Oct 24, 2007, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

To make sure Rush isn't an easy cancel stance:

Executioner's strike
Axe Attack. If this attack hits, you strike for +10...34...40 damage and you lose all adrenaline.

That doesn't fix rush. That just takes Executioner's Strike out of play permanently. If anybody wanted that conditional, they'd bring Decapitate.

Kyp Jade · Oct 24, 2007, 03:14 PM // 15:14

They would need to humility or diversion it, SoI is a nice quick cast to d-shot :P

Bankai · Oct 24, 2007, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

That doesn't fix rush. That just takes Executioner's Strike out of play permanently. If anybody wanted that conditional, they'd bring Decapitate.

It doesn´t completely take it out of the game. Since Executioner´s is so awesome, you can just bring a skill like Dash or Pious haste. However, this makes the build a little more fragile. The only thing that one could take instead of Executioner´s is Penetrating blow, which kind of sucks. It's also possible that axe warrior move to Body blow/dismemer + Cleave, which moves the game more towards pressure. Which is good.

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 24, 2007, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Could we try to stay with the main topic. Although I disagree with the OP about having to tweak warriors further; I think there are far greater things that currently NEED to be on par/or close with warriors, such as dervs and sins. While between the three different classes each serves a different role or has strengths and weaknesses the gap between them are pretty big...

Sk8tborderx · Oct 24, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

It doesn´t completely take it out of the game. Since Executioner´s is so awesome, you can just bring a skill like Dash or Pious haste. However, this makes the build a little more fragile. The only thing that one could take instead of Executioner´s is Penetrating blow, which kind of sucks. It's also possible that axe warrior move to Body blow/dismemer + Cleave, which moves the game more towards pressure. Which is good.

Why the hell would nerfing executioners matter when you can take body blow?

Bankai · Oct 24, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

Why the hell would nerfing executioners matter when you can take body blow?

Good point.

Had actually never noticed that they deal the same amount of + damage.

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 24, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

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