Curse

DIH49 · Oct 23, 2007, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Either buff heal sig so it's a viable alternative, or nerf them.

I see. So, again "your position is... if we nerf the really good skills to be on par with the mediocre skills, then this will encourage splitting. I'm fascinated into how this works out, exactly."

Bankai · Oct 23, 2007, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Actually, when re-thinking that plan, it sucks.

Captain Robo · Oct 23, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Bankai, these aren't very good suggestions because they either don't address the issue, or address it in a roundabout way.

Encouraging splits by nerfing skills which would impede a split is more or less forcing the build choice upon the players.

The concept of a modern warrior from the days of YAA and Cripslash is so far removed as to be ludicrous. Warriors nowadays are meat grinders; all they do is damage, and as such, they need to be in the location at which they can do the most damage. Splittable warriors used to be extremely good, when the metagame allowed it; but now people just found that things work so much better when you have two dedicated warriors that just chunk away at your opponent's backline.

The problem with the decline of split builds, as I see it, is an efficiency issue. Of a warrior's eight skills (seven actually, because you should be packing a resurrection signet): two have to be devoted to stances, usually Frenzy and Rush; because it maximizes both mobility and DPS; attack skills take up three-four slots typically, (axe warriors bring Eviscerate, Executioners, Bull's Strike, sometimes Agonizing Chop), leaving only 1-2 slots after that for random utility.

At this point, why even bother bringing heal sig, when you could be bringing something to secure the kill faster (shock, rending touch, disrupting dagger, blackout, vampiric touch, rodgort's invocation, unseen fury)

As it stands right now, taking something that is essential for a split capable warrior (self heal, self cleaning, on-demand speed boost) would reduce the effectiveness of the warrior in 8v8. This is a tradeoff that nobody is willing to make anymore.

I remember when shock axe bars looked like this:

Eviscerate
Executioner's Strike
Bull's Strike
Healing Signet
Frenzy
Sprint
Shock
Resurrection Signet

Healing Signet and Sprint granted this character a degree of split flexibility, and due to the fact that your Frenzy-Cancel was on a 20 second recharge, if you were in perma-frenzy it meant your ass.

Compare that to

Eviscerate
Executioner's Strike
Agonizing Chop
Bull's Strike
Shock
Frenzy
Rush
Resurrection Signet

This epitomizes the GOREDENGINEGO philosophy. All it does is damage.

The problem is that the issue is too complicated to be changed by a mere nerfing/buffing of skills. That would only delay the issue, which I believe to be at the core of the way Guildwars does GvG. If you performed a skill balance which favored splits over 8v8, we'd be seeing an overpowered split metagame.

Bankai · Oct 23, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Read my above post.

Lorekeeper · Oct 23, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

If you performed a skill balance which favored splits over 8v8, we'd be seeing an overpowered split metagame.

i dont want a skill balance that favoured splits over 8vs8.

i would like changes that nudged the meta away from monk flaggers... but its not so obvious why monk runners became so popular when they once were a rarity, in this thread alone there are several posts suggesting reasons for this shift but its not easy to reach a consensus and noone seems interested in trying to form such a thing.

one things for sure, these highly defensive flaggers are a big reason for the dumbing down of warrior builds to 'meatgrinder' style.

i was playing w/d today... with heal sig... and in all honesty that build cannot stand on its own 2 feet, heal sig feels like a liability more than something to keep you alive, and having no self condition removal makes soloing anything you might meet on a split pretty much impossible. Of course, splitting is possible with the backup of the highly defensive flagger but i dont like this... split with 2-3 people or dont split at all style meta... i want to go back to the days when at least 2 mainteam characters could hold their own away from any significant healing power.

theres nothing wrong with the 8vs8 fight as such, and we definately shouldnt have split abilities buffed to overpowered heights... please stop discussing balance suggestions as if you can only nerf something to hell or buff it to high heaven.

pah01 · Oct 23, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Bankai, these aren't very good suggestions because they either don't address the issue, or address it in a roundabout way.

Encouraging splits by nerfing skills which would impede a split is more or less forcing the build choice upon the players.

The concept of a modern warrior from the days of YAA and Cripslash is so far removed as to be ludicrous. Warriors nowadays are meat grinders; all they do is damage, and as such, they need to be in the location at which they can do the most damage. Splittable warriors used to be extremely good, when the metagame allowed it; but now people just found that things work so much better when you have two dedicated warriors that just chunk away at your opponent's backline.

The problem with the decline of split builds, as I see it, is an efficiency issue. Of a warrior's eight skills (seven actually, because you should be packing a resurrection signet): two have to be devoted to stances, usually Frenzy and Rush; because it maximizes both mobility and DPS; attack skills take up three-four slots typically, (axe warriors bring Eviscerate, Executioners, Bull's Strike, sometimes Agonizing Chop), leaving only 1-2 slots after that for random utility.

Ok up to this point you are sounding like a really knowledgeable player with an informed opinion. I dont agree with the reasoning that its efficiency that means that you dont put skirmish skills on a warrior.

On a skirmish your warrior kills stuff and is supported by other templates like sor/wor or a split monk at the moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

At this point, why even bother bringing heal sig, when you could be bringing something to secure the kill faster (shock, rending touch, disrupting dagger, blackout, vampiric touch, rodgort's invocation, unseen fury)

Here you lost it. I bolded out the offensive portions of your post. LOL What warrior ever brings those four skills ever? other than complete fu cktards in RA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

As it stands right now, taking something that is essential for a split capable warrior (self heal, self cleaning, on-demand speed boost) would reduce the effectiveness of the warrior in 8v8. This is a tradeoff that nobody is willing to make anymore.

As I said above itws due to the fact that in the current environment you support your warriors with other split templates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

I remember when shock axe bars looked like this:

Eviscerate
Executioner's Strike
Bull's Strike
Healing Signet
Frenzy
Sprint
Shock
Resurrection Signet

Healing Signet and Sprint granted this character a degree of split flexibility, and due to the fact that your Frenzy-Cancel was on a 20 second recharge, if you were in perma-frenzy it meant your ass.

Compare that to

Eviscerate
Executioner's Strike
Agonizing Chop
Bull's Strike
Shock
Frenzy
Rush
Resurrection Signet

This epitomizes the GOREDENGINEGO philosophy. All it does is damage.

The problem is that the issue is too complicated to be changed by a mere nerfing/buffing of skills. That would only delay the issue, which I believe to be at the core of the way Guildwars does GvG. If you performed a skill balance which favored splits over 8v8, we'd be seeing an overpowered split metagame.

I dont think sprint was ever more commonly used than rush, other than maybe in the beginning of the game before people were any good at all.

Joe

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 23, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Ok up to this point you are sounding like a really knowledgeable player with an informed opinion. I dont agree with the reasoning that its efficiency that means that you dont put skirmish skills on a warrior.

On a skirmish your warrior kills stuff and is supported by other templates like sor/wor or a split monk at the moment.

Sure it is(efficiency). The only reason why warriors now don't or can't pack healsig is because it sucks. The reasons why warriors are now supported is because they HAVE to be supported, so may as well pack better skills devoted to that killing job now. Lastly support was only added or even needed because of power creeps, natural stride on rangers+burning arrow, sins...

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Here you lost it. I bolded out the offensive portions of your post. LOL What warrior ever brings those four skills ever? other than complete fu cktards in RA.

I think he knows what he's talking about listed some good skills, the remainder of that post was just supporting the idea statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

As I said above itws due to the fact that in the current environment you support your warriors with other split templates.

Again because this was forced upon through the game evolving and or new skills+chapters.
The reasons Captain has listed, you have mentioned, I have mentioned are all contributing factors as to why splits are the way they are now and changing that, frankly, I think is impossible.

pah01 · Oct 23, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Sure it is(efficiency). The only reason why warriors now don't or can't pack healsig is because it sucks. The reasons why warriors are now supported is because they HAVE to be supported, so may as well pack better skills devoted to that killing job now. Lastly support was only added or even needed because of power creeps, natural stride on rangers+burning arrow, sins...

I completely agree with the bolded part of your quote. It isnt because healing signet is less *efficient* on the bar that it isnt taken its because its *bad* in the current environment.

IMO a discussion about efficiency of skillbars is where there are two powerful skills to be chosen between. Ie between say rending touch and shock. Or between agonising/disrupting chop. This is a discussion that would take place when an almost complete build and purpose is laid out already. Do I want another shock or should I go rend?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

I think he knows what he's talking about listed some good skills, the remainder of that post was just supporting the idea statement.

No did you look at the skills I bolded out! look again. Blackout on a warrior. Way to noob his post up.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 23, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Okay, we had our fun, but I deleted the tangent. Captain Robo, keep posting of crappy Random Arena builds to crappy Random Arena threads.

pah01 · Oct 23, 2007, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Okay, we had our fun, but I deleted the tangent. Captain Robo, keep posting of crappy Random Arena builds to crappy Random Arena threads.

lol please say you ttned it tho squidget pleaseeeeeeee

Captain Robo · Oct 23, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Way to totally not get the joke

TheOneMephisto · Oct 23, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I dont think sprint was ever more commonly used than rush, other than maybe in the beginning of the game before people were any good at all.

Back when warriors actually split, it was pretty much required to have at least 1 warrior per build to run sprint/heal sig just to give you the option of splitting them off and/or running flags or w/e.

Captain Robo · Oct 23, 2007, 11:00 PM // 23:00

The only reason that Rush is experiencing widespread play is because it's available more often than Sprint is, making it a perfect frenzy cancel. If warriors were centered around splitting, Rush would be absolute ass, because you'd have to build up the adrenaline every time you wanted to use it.

Rush is used [as a better frenzy cancel] because splitting is no longer a concern for warriors.

pah01 · Oct 24, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

The only reason that Rush is experiencing widespread play is because it's available more often than Sprint is, making it a perfect frenzy cancel. If warriors were centered around splitting, Rush would be absolute ass, because you'd have to build up the adrenaline every time you wanted to use it.

Right lets explain something here. Nobody is ever going to put sprint on a warrior bar as an on demand speed boost. This is because you have a much better version called dash.

The whole sprint vs rush thing is invalidated by power creep.

Another thing on the rush vs "on demand" speedboost is the fact that if you split with your stand warrior you have a snare probably with you and healing support because of the corrresponding offensive power that you are likelt to face when splitting.

Every problem with anything in the game now is associated with poer creep or badly designed game mechanincs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Rush is used [as a better frenzy cancel] because splitting is no longer a concern for warriors.

Rush is/ should be used more often because you want to catch a kiting target or to help you switch targets easier. It isnt just there to cancel frenzy.

@theonemephisto

You are right but it was used even then equally with rush.

Joe

Joe

TheOneMephisto · Oct 24, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Right lets explain something here. Nobody is ever going to put sprint on a warrior bar as an on demand speed boost. This is because you have a much better version called dash.

They each have their advantages and disadvantages. Dash is a pretty big energy load for a warrior, and isn't as persistent, along with locking your secondary. For a shock-axe, the only real option was sprint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Another thing on the rush vs "on demand" speedboost is the fact that if you split with your stand warrior you have a snare probably with you and healing support because of the corrresponding offensive power that you are likelt to face when splitting.

True, at least now. Sometimes, I wish that we'd return to the days where a warrior could just randomly run off into the enemy base if nothing was happening at the stand and MAKE something happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

it was used even then equally with rush.

Meh, I'd say that it was used more than rush (having two splittable warriors was useful a lot of the time, and all dual-warrior builds had at least one), but that's besides the point. At least then, it was NEEDED.

I miss the days where WM could go into VoD with both monks dp'd out and dead on the ground and still win a game through masterful splitting and the use of self-heals.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 24, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Many people seem to think that current Shock Axe templates are somehow not 'splittable' because they lack a self-heal. In practice, you're usually doing long-term splits with flagger support, and short-term splits (like pushes on a flagger) the self heal would never come into play.

People don't run Sprint + Frenzy because doing so massively decreases your flagstand pressure. You can't Frenzy frequently and you'll often be chasing targets without a speed buff, which really hurts your ability to play disruptively and build adrenaline. If I want a speed buff on my warrior, I'll bring Enraging in addition to Rush, but I won't even give a second look to Sprint.

Captain Robo · Oct 24, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

The whole sprint vs rush thing is invalidated by power creep.

Another thing on the rush vs "on demand" speedboost is the fact that if you split with your stand warrior you have a snare probably with you and healing support because of the corrresponding offensive power that you are likelt to face when splitting.

Power creep? Both of those skills have been around since Prophecies! Rush simply enables the ubiquitous Axe Spiker build to function more fluidly than sprint ever could, and therefore is a better addition to the build than Sprint. If anything, Enraging Charge was the skill that killed Sprint, in terms of viability.

Furthermore, I'm not sure I agree with the philosophy you present there. Part of the effectiveness of a good split character is that not only can he catch his target, but can also arrive to his destination as fast as possible. Sprint can be used anytime, provided it's not recharging; Rush has a prerequisite that cannot be met while en-route to somewhere. Snares will certainly help you catch your target, but they will not increase your mobility. Speed boosts will do both; which is more effective for a split-capable warrior to have?

Quote:

Rush is/ should be used more often because you want to catch a kiting target or to help you switch targets easier. It isnt just there to cancel frenzy.

@theonemephisto

You are right but it was used even then equally with rush.

Rush is a frenzy cancel on a short recharge with the added bonus of being a long duration speed boost.

Also, Sprint was the end-all-be-all of warrior speed boosts until Nightfall. Rush was only used on dedicated stand warriors or Hammer Warriors who could not spare the energy for Sprint.

And Dash wasn't a good alternative until it was buffed to 8 second recharge, then it became clearly superior to Sprint on W/A.

Quote:

Many people seem to think that current Shock Axe templates are somehow not 'splittable' because they lack a self-heal. In practice, you're usually doing long-term splits with flagger support, and short-term splits (like pushes on a flagger) the self heal would never come into play.

Yeah, I guess it's important to clarify what kind of splits we want to see enabled. Personally, when I think splitting, I understand it to be 2-3 self-sufficient characters that can clean out a base, then gtfo.

The difference is having self-sufficient splitting characters or keeping a monk or ritualist in tow. I'd rather see the former, but maybe this style of split is outdated, which I think is unfortunate.

Quote:

People don't run Sprint + Frenzy because doing so massively decreases your flagstand pressure. You can't Frenzy frequently and you'll often be chasing targets without a speed buff, which really hurts your ability to play disruptively and build adrenaline. If I want a speed buff on my warrior, I'll bring Enraging in addition to Rush, but I won't even give a second look to Sprint.

Exactly, sprint is oudated, Rush just does a much better job at maximizing the effectiveness of frenzy.

I'm willing to bet that Rush is partially responsible for the "apparent degeneracy" of warriors in the metagame (holy shit, on topic!). If you bring Rush, you can't split by yourself; if you can't split by yourself, there's no point in bringing skills that would help you in that situation. Might as well pile on the damage skills and beat the shit out of things 8v8.

My views on this issue really haven't changed: Use of Frenzy takes skill; being able to cancel frenzy on-demand removes this skill.

Putting Rush on a recharge is the best thing I can think of.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 24, 2007, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

If you bring Rush, you can't split by yourself; if you can't split by yourself, there's no point in bringing skills that would help you in that situation.

You can't split by yourself against good teams, no matter if you bring Sprint or Rush. Splitting by yourself as a warrior for any length of time is going to get you snared and killed. People don't bring skills that will allow them to split by themselves, because even if you have those skills, you die anyway.

Where an energy speed boost starts to look more attractive than Rush is when you're splitting with multiple characters who also have energy speed boosts. This allows you to move around the map quicker and perform more effective ganks and collapses.

However, even bringing one of these does not necessitate taking Rush off your bar. I will gladly take Rush + Enraging Charge if I feel that I'll be splitting a fair amount, but I will never ever drop Rush for an energy speed boost. Rush is a huge part of any flagstand warrior's gameplan, so much that if Rush were removed from the game tomorrow, I'd probably stop running warriors entirely in favor of other options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

My views on this issue really haven't changed: Use of Frenzy takes skill; being able to cancel frenzy on-demand removes this skill.

Other way around. Having an energy skill with a recharge removes the skill from Frenzy, because you simply can't frenzy when it's on recharge outside of specific situations. If you do, a good team will eventually catch you with caster damage and you'll end up putting more pressure on your team.

Wish Rush, you can Frenzy almost 'at will', but you have to be careful about it because missing with an adrenal attack will remove a strike of adrenaline from your rush. This means warriors have to be more careful using adrenal attacks on protted targets, because you can suddenly lose your cancel stance and be caught absorbing massive damage. The skill of watching your adrenal attacks in Frenzy and choosing when it's worth the risk to Eviscerate is much more interesting than waiting out a recharge timer.

TheOneMephisto · Oct 24, 2007, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

You can't split by yourself against good teams, no matter if you bring Sprint or Rush. Splitting by yourself as a warrior for any length of time is going to get you snared and killed. People don't bring skills that will allow them to split by themselves, because even if you have those skills, you die anyway.

Maybe in the current environment, but one thing that I would like to see change would be this. If heal sig weren't so easy to interrupt, if BA didn't allow rangers to actually kill things, a solo-warrior split would be fairly effective mainly due to the fact that the opponent would either only be able to chase you out without actually managing to kill you (sending back almost anyone solo) or they'd have to devote 2+ people to have a chance at getting a kill.

Even splitting off for a little bit to kill a couple archers and force your opponent to send something back is better than beating on a defense that you can't break. It also adds quite a few strategic and tactical options, while just making the game more interesting IMO.

Riotgear · Oct 24, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Power creep? Both of those skills have been around since Prophecies! Rush simply enables the ubiquitous Axe Spiker build to function more fluidly than sprint ever could, and therefore is a better addition to the build than Sprint. If anything, Enraging Charge was the skill that killed Sprint, in terms of viability.

And Enraging Charge isn't power creep?