Curse

Neo-LD · Oct 22, 2007, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Again, I'm not sure what Observer Mode matches you're watching, but I continue to see rits destroying teams with Splinter weapon and making use of life-stealing weapon spells to win skirmishes. That's their role in modern GvG, and it's as critical as any other class.

Buildwise, Rits remind me very much of rangers right now. You have one solid template, put together from a patchwork of the few extremely strong skills the class offers.

Exactly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Also, splitting is mostly just discouraged by players not wanting to split. Guilds that put strong emphasis on splitting and work at it still do quite well. Monk runners will always be around(since you can't really destroy the foundation of the game because people want an easier time splitting) and good splitting teams can usually deal with it.

Thats the impression that I've gotten as well. After splitting quite often last month, it seemed that as long as we (Victrix) played well, we could split just fine, against just about anybody. There remained the slight problem that we had to play much much better than our opponents to get anything accomplished, especially against monk runners, but its definately not even close to as difficult as has been suggested.

However, the one thing that super-defensive runners have done to hurt splitting is make "makeshift splitting" obsolete. That is, sure its possible to break down the defenses of a monk runner, but only if you show up with about 2-3 guys that are specifically designed for the task. Sending any fewer wont get the job done. Trying to do it with anything less than perfect skirmish characters is nearly suicide. This really locks teams into rigid splits (which we dont want) and build wars (which we also dont want). Those are the problems that need to be adressed for splitting to become a viable again for anything other than designed split teams.

Lorekeeper · Oct 22, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

However, the one thing that super-defensive runners have done to hurt splitting is make "makeshift splitting" obsolete. That is, sure its possible to break down the defenses of a monk runner, but only if you show up with about 2-3 guys that are specifically designed for the task. Sending any fewer wont get the job done. Trying to do it with anything less than perfect skirmish characters is nearly suicide. This really locks teams into rigid splits (which we dont want) and build wars (which we also dont want). Those are the problems that need to be adressed for splitting to become a viable again for anything other than designed split teams.

i think thats what we are trying to address here. Trying to come up with changes that might push people away from such defensive flaggers which would open up GvGs immensely.

some people suggested reversing the nerf done to weapon of warding which remained at the center of rit flagger builds in the past. Im not so convinced this would make the monk flagger disappear and i think more needs to be discussed on this matter. Problem is, LoD at the stand allows for runner bars to get more focused on base defense and survivability, without such powerful partywide healing at the stand the flag runner was the usual place for party healing support which made the builds more diluted.

im not convinced buffing weapon of warding would bring back rit runners... although buffing protective was kaolai with a better recharge and would make them more attractive.

at the end of the day the question boils down to whether a split team with a ritualist flagger is superior to a split team with a monk flagger...

Seamus Finn · Oct 22, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

im not convinced buffing weapon of warding would bring back rit runners... although buffing protective was kaolai with a better recharge and would make them more attractive.

Are we playing the same game? Rit runners are VERY popular.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 22, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

One thing about monk runners that a lot of people forget is that they buff offense as well as defense. Sure, you can have your monk runner turtle in the base and defend the NPCs, but I can also have my monk runner push into your base with my split, which will allow me to push harder and strike at a greater variety of targets. There is a reason most 'rigid' splits incorporate a monk healer into the split team these days - it's incredibly useful when pushing offensively into someone else's base.

One of the biggest differences between splits now and splits pre-Nightfall is that the best skirmish defense skills now are almost all skills that you can target on other people. Pre-Nightfall, most of the skirmish templates kept themselves alive through self-only heals (Heal Sig, Troll), or defensive stances. This gave the offensive team an advantage, because while the defense was targeting your players who could kite and use stances, the offense only had to take out stationary NPCs.

These days, power creep and increased player skill (particularly interrupts) have knocked the self-heals right out of the metagame. Healing Signet and Troll Ungent are jokes compared to the kind of offense a split force can have, forcing teams to rely more and more on monk heals to survive in skirmish play.

If you want to make offensive splitting a more viable option, the first step is buffing self-heals. Why can't Heal Sig have a 1-second cast time, making it at least a little better than Signet of Devotion? Why does Troll Unguent have to suck in every concievable way?

Once it becomes viable to take a self-heal on an offensive character and actually keep yourself alive with it, you'll dramatically reduce the need for monk runners, while simultaneously making it easier to deal with them.

Lorekeeper · Oct 22, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Are we playing the same game? Rit runners are VERY popular.

i see more monk runners... far more.

I wouldnt say i see rit runners being played much at all... not like you suggest. In all honesty the only thing a rit runner brings to the table is splinter weapon and ancestors rage... the defensive abilities pale in comparison to a monk runner. Things would be different if the rit could compete with a monk runner in that respect, but they just dont (especially in the hands of less experienced players), which is why i said what i said... how could the rit build be promoted further so we didnt have such defensive flaggers?

id like to see monk flaggers completely gone... they used to be so rare back in the day and many people frowned at the sight of a 3 monk build in GvG (theyre almost accepted as status quo now)... whether that will ever happen is another thing entirely but i dont mind proposing the idea and wondering if it could happen.

TheOneMephisto · Oct 23, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

One thing about monk runners that a lot of people forget is that they buff offense as well as defense. Sure, you can have your monk runner turtle in the base and defend the NPCs, but I can also have my monk runner push into your base with my split, which will allow me to push harder and strike at a greater variety of targets. There is a reason most 'rigid' splits incorporate a monk healer into the split team these days - it's incredibly useful when pushing offensively into someone else's base.

One of the biggest differences between splits now and splits pre-Nightfall is that the best skirmish defense skills now are almost all skills that you can target on other people. Pre-Nightfall, most of the skirmish templates kept themselves alive through self-only heals (Heal Sig, Troll), or defensive stances. This gave the offensive team an advantage, because while the defense was targeting your players who could kite and use stances, the offense only had to take out stationary NPCs.

These days, power creep and increased player skill (particularly interrupts) have knocked the self-heals right out of the metagame. Healing Signet and Troll Ungent are jokes compared to the kind of offense a split force can have, forcing teams to rely more and more on monk heals to survive in skirmish play.

If you want to make offensive splitting a more viable option, the first step is buffing self-heals. Why can't Heal Sig have a 1-second cast time, making it at least a little better than Signet of Devotion? Why does Troll Unguent have to suck in every concievable way?

Once it becomes viable to take a self-heal on an offensive character and actually keep yourself alive with it, you'll dramatically reduce the need for monk runners, while simultaneously making it easier to deal with them.

QFT. There's no possible way that old skirmish characters could survive for any amount of time now in a skirmish. Monk or rit runners are the only viable ways of keeping things alive, as the chances of getting a heal sig or troll off in a split against anyone good is pretty much nil.

The reason that fluid and variable splits are gone is that the tools that you used to put on those character that would have a chance to split are simply outdated. You can't simply sacrifice one skill slot and have a viable split character anymore, and that's what we need to fix. Once people are able to swap 1 or 2 slots and create viable splitters while maintaining stand capabilities, hopefully they'll drop monk runners for more useful things that can bring more versatile tools to the table than more healing.

Seamus Finn · Oct 23, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

the only thing a rit runner brings to the table is splinter weapon and ancestors rage

You seem to imply that these aren't two of the most broken offensive skills in the game. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume its a playing hour thing, but in the American timezone I would say at least half of the builds I face on a given night have splinter weapon and almost none of them have a stand rit. A few have them on a bsurge and the vast majority have them on a rit.

Apok Omen · Oct 23, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Change Splinter Weapon to Lightning Damage, 10 energy to Ancestors Rage. Two problems slightly solved, since Anet likes baby steps.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 23, 2007, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Splinter and Ancestors are fine.

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 23, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Wouldn't mind Ancestors going back to 10energy
Back on topic to promote some better skillful play trees+sins need a look at further.

Living Parasite · Oct 23, 2007, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Splinter and Ancestor's do one thing really well: They punish the enemy for bad positioning. Who doesn't like that?

Riotgear · Oct 23, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Back on topic to promote some better skillful play trees+sins need a look at further.

SP spike has needed "looking at" since it first existed. The fact that it got an entire 50k page dedicated to it on Izzy's talk page should have signaled that nobody likes it and it needs to die, why it still lives, I have no idea. I'm hard-pressed to think of any other build that has been so disproportionately effective for the amount of skill required to play it. Its lack of presence in GvG allowed it to suffer only minor and ultimately inconsequential nerfs (and a major BUFF via Impale), hopefully its strong presence now will finally get it addressed for real.

Bankai · Oct 23, 2007, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

QFT. There's no possible way that old skirmish characters could survive for any amount of time now in a skirmish. Monk or rit runners are the only viable ways of keeping things alive, as the chances of getting a heal sig or troll off in a split against anyone good is pretty much nil.

The reason that fluid and variable splits are gone is that the tools that you used to put on those character that would have a chance to split are simply outdated. You can't simply sacrifice one skill slot and have a viable split character anymore, and that's what we need to fix. Once people are able to swap 1 or 2 slots and create viable splitters while maintaining stand capabilities, hopefully they'll drop monk runners for more useful things that can bring more versatile tools to the table than more healing.

The problem with for example a warrior, is that there are so many slots you need to bring, you have no space for skills that are good for splitting. Every warrior (not including hammer wars here) needs to bring Frenzy, cancelstance, rez, Main elite attack, secondary attack and bull's strike. That's 6 skills. Then you've got two skills left, for which you usually want shock and one free skillslot. However, putting Heal sig on this char does not make it a split character, because the other 7 skills are primarily flagstand skills. The only way you can make sure warriors can be split characters, is to lower their reliance on a few specific skills.

Yes, you know what I mean.

*gasp* nerf Shock, Bull's strike or Rush.

Shmanka · Oct 23, 2007, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Parasite

Splinter and Ancestor's do one thing really well: They punish the enemy for bad positioning. Who doesn't like that?

2nd thing: Absolutely wiping any NPC advantage the opposing team had pre VoD.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 23, 2007, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

The problem with for example a warrior, is that there are so many slots you need to bring, you have no space for skills that are good for splitting. Every warrior (not including hammer wars here) needs to bring Frenzy, cancelstance, rez, Main elite attack, secondary attack and bull's strike. That's 6 skills. Then you've got two skills left, for which you usually want shock and one free skillslot. However, putting Heal sig on this char does not make it a split character, because the other 7 skills are primarily flagstand skills. The only way you can make sure warriors can be split characters, is to lower their reliance on a few specific skills.

Yes, you know what I mean.

*gasp* nerf Shock, Bull's strike or Rush.

Shock and Bull's Strike are both better than Healing Signet in a skirmish environment.

DIH49 · Oct 23, 2007, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

*gasp* nerf Shock, Bull's strike or Rush.

So your position is... if we nerf the really good skills to be on par with the mediocre skills, then this will encourage splitting. I'm fascinated into how this works out, exactly.

Bankai · Oct 23, 2007, 09:21 AM // 09:21

No, that's not what I'm saying. There are currently about 6 skills that need to be on an axe war. If you make a bar without them, it sucks (few exceptions). If you decrease the absolute need for these skills, then there's more space to bring a skill like heal sig.

DIH49 · Oct 23, 2007, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

No, that's not what I'm saying. There are currently about 6 skills that need to be on an axe war. If you make a bar without them, it sucks (few exceptions). If you decrease the absolute need for these skills, then there's more space to bring a skill like heal sig.

Please explain to me how you intend to, in your words, "decrease the absolute need for these skills."

Bankai · Oct 23, 2007, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Either buff heal sig so it's a viable alternative, or nerf them.

Surena · Oct 23, 2007, 10:02 AM // 10:02

I'd rather want a buff to heal sig than make strength worse by nerfing skills like bull's. Half casting time, slightly less heal, or just -20 armour. Warriors shouldn't be too good in self-survival imo.