Curse

Riotgear · Oct 02, 2007, 03:46 AM // 03:46

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Originally Posted by Yue

Or you could just give shields up a cast time.

Or nerf Leadership so the 10e cost actually means something again.

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Originally Posted by Keithark

I like how you cut me off in the first quote where I said "and it should have been in the start".... But you have failed to answer the main point, if the class gets nerfed any farther what would it be good for at all? So we should just delete it?

As has been pointed out, the entire concept of the class was terrible: A heavily-armored ranged character with tons of energy that gets to cast unremovable team buffs that often have no cast time and gets permanent 25% IAS with no upkeep and the autoattack damage of a Warrior. Isn't there something missing from that, like... you know.... a weakness? They had to invent counters to them just for Nightfall, and the problem is that most of those counters (i.e. Vocal Minority) blow ass because they're utterly useless outside of cockblocking Paragons.

While deleting them from the game (or nerfing them into the ground, same thing) doesn't seem like a particularly bad idea, if they're going to be salvaged, all of the above problems need to be addressed. They're never going to be balanced without PRACTICAL counters, i.e. things that you'd bring for reasons other than just shitting on Paragons.

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Then some other class would take it's place and be nerfed into nothingness and then deleted and so on until you have only one class in the whole game

Or something balanced would take their place and not get nerfed?

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I have had both empathy and insidious on me in gvg as well as wreckless, price of failure, and lots of other mesmer hexes etc.

Spirit Shackles, Reckless Haste, and Faintheartedness are examples of threatening abilities because they severely hinder your ability to do your job. Empathy and Insidious Parasite are examples of utter crap because they don't.

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Also you helped make my point...you say putting blind and hexes on paragon is useless because it needs to be put on warrior or whatever in frontline...but you are still suggesting that a paragon is overpowered. I would think that if a class is overpowered then it would make a great deal of sense to try to shut it down wouldn't it?

Because blind is not meant as a permanent shutdown, it is meant to be opportunistic. Hexes have moved towards being opportunistic as well. This is because warriors are also opportunistic, a warrior needs to plan out when to unload on a target, and blinding them in the middle of that holds far more weight than just spamming Blinding Surge on them on recharge. You don't NEED to blind them constantly to blind them when it matters. Paragons are not opportunistic, they're operating at near-full efficiency any time they are not being shut down, which means short-lasting disruption is going to have minimal impact on them.

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so what you are saying is that you should only have to worry about stopping frontliners and ignore everyone else?

The skills designed to disrupt frontliners have many mechanical differences between those designed to disrupt midliners. I outlined their opportunistic nature already. Generally speaking, anything that works on a Paragon is far more usable on a frontliner, and very little that works on a midliner works well on a Paragon. Midliner counters tend to revolve largely around interrupts, counteraction (i.e. hex/enchant removal) and harassment. You can't interrupt shouts, you can't do anything about shouts once they're cast, and harassing a midliner with over 100AL is a waste of time.

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What do you call "high-level GvG"? rank 1-100?

High enough to not use Insidious Parasite and Empathy.

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If there are skills that will basically shut down the paragon and the paragon is "too good" then doesn't that make those skills "too good"

If you're referring to Aegis or Shields Up, then in their current form, yes, they are too good. Everything else is better-spent on the frontliners, wasting them on a Paragon means that the other team's warriors get to beat you up a lot, which means you die.

twicky_kid · Oct 02, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

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Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Thanks guys.

Thanx Andrew

Seamus Finn · Oct 02, 2007, 06:19 AM // 06:19

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Originally Posted by Riotgear

Or nerf Leadership so the 10e cost actually means something again.

Nerf a class because a skill is overpowered... ok. 10e means nothing if it gives irremovable prot to your whole party for 9 seconds.

Riotgear · Oct 02, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Nerf a class because a skill is overpowered... ok. 10e means nothing if it gives irremovable prot to your whole party for 9 seconds.

Irremovable prot against two classes. Shields Up used to be an expensive skill that was hard to justify putting on a midliner that was only used as a ranger-spike cockblock, Paragons make it a cheap skill that's easy to put on a midliner that just happens to work well because of other teams bringing Paragons a lot and the fact that the main vulnerability of stuff like Aegis has been interrupts. Since this isn't the only thing Leadership is breaking (i.e. it already took WY as a casualty, and people are arguing that WY is still overpowered), I view it as a problem with Leadership.

Keithark · Oct 02, 2007, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

If you're referring to Aegis or Shields Up, then in their current form, yes, they are too good. Everything else is better-spent on the frontliners, wasting them on a Paragon means that the other team's warriors get to beat you up a lot, which means you die.

I will not be replying to you again after this post as I don't think you will ever get it...You keep talking about all the good things about a paragon and then say that there are no counters then you say the counters are better-spent on the frontliners, If you would look at the 1000's of skills you would find lots of counters. You are talking in circles and every time you keep basically saying that you should be able to ignore everyone except the warrior/dervish and suffer no ill-effects... you are most likely a warrior who is upset that you cannot solo-spike poor defensless ellys and mesmers when a paragon is around. And I'll bet you have a paragon on your team...so as far as balance, paragons are as balanced as anything else....maybe even more balanced. I rarely see 2-3 paragons on the same team anymore but I do see 2 warriors, 2 monks, 2 elly's......maybe we should nerf those classes until it is only worth it to bring one of each like we have the paragon?

twicky_kid · Oct 02, 2007, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Though I don't think that will stop shields up. Its too good at VoD, against sins, ranger interrupts, and paragon pressure.

With a reduction to Leadership and Aggressive Refrain I think the problem will fix itself. Aggressive Refrain effectively is a 25% increase in adrenaline gain allowing WYS and GFTE to be spammed for energy.

Yichi · Oct 02, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Aggressive Refrain effectively is a 25% increase in adrenaline gain allowing WYS and GFTE to be spammed for energy.

Yes because this is all agressive refrain is used for...

Please stop posting. Youre giving everyone a headache.

Seamus Finn · Oct 02, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Irremovable prot against two classes. Shields Up used to be an expensive skill that was hard to justify putting on a midliner that was only used as a ranger-spike cockblock, Paragons make it a cheap skill that's easy to put on a midliner that just happens to work well because of other teams bringing Paragons a lot and the fact that the main vulnerability of stuff like Aegis has been interrupts. Since this isn't the only thing Leadership is breaking (i.e. it already took WY as a casualty, and people are arguing that WY is still overpowered), I view it as a problem with Leadership.

Leadership is problematic, but Shields Up is its own problem. It shuts down 2 stand classes and there is effectively nothing(maybe a lucky diversion?) the opposing team can do about it. It is also amazing at VoD. It is not removable, not interruptable and very cheap at 10 energy. The idea of it is overpowered, there is really no arguing it.

Lorekeeper · Oct 03, 2007, 10:54 AM // 10:54

over the past few days, in light of the success of that condition build in the last 2 monthlies i am seeing more and more guilds experimenting with similiar builds.

i see builds with 2 trappers, who punish ward campers.

i see people running the dual war, smoke trapper, crip shot, tainted mes

this only supports the notion that it is not the game that is forcing this kind of meta, its the players. Dual dismiss condition removal has been on monk bars for months and months now, yet noone really had the courage to run something that took advantage of this. I can only assume they were too scared of being made fun of, for some reason people feel that running anything but what everyone else is running is a crime or somewhat frowned upon or socially unacceptable. Or is it that people have just forgotten how to play pressure because of the way that pressure had been ''blocked'' out in the past year or so?

clever metagaming is identifying that there is a pattern in the builds that everyone seems to run and exploiting these patterns. vZ claimed that they ran that condition build in the finals because they were pretty certain Rawr would run their usual build which has little to no mass condition removal. Metagaming is not an exact science however, it is just a matter of probabilities and expectations. Remember the hex meta? People started to run hex eater vortex and expel hex paragons and purge signets. But if they fought against a team with no hexes they found alot of their utility proved useless.

Its no different now. Monks arent bringing any significant condition removal, and people are balling in wards.

Im glad to see condition pressure making a slight peak into the meta but im suprised it took so long (one of my fav builds was the old KGYU pressure build with the deb shot rangers).

and i really hope some good guilds run a condition build to show everyone that it can work. Im not saying that it should be the ONLY thing people run, i just think it shows us that you arent stuck with running certain builds.

whether we see any real shift in the meta is yet to be seen, and we should probably wait for the next skill update before we make any quick judgements.

Vanquisher · Oct 03, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Anyone not running Ether Prodigy + Heal Party when expecting condition pressure is either stupid or arrogant.

Snow Bunny · Oct 03, 2007, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

over the past few days, in light of the success of that condition build in the last 2 monthlies i am seeing more and more guilds experimenting with similiar builds.

i see builds with 2 trappers, who punish ward campers.

i see people running the dual war, smoke trapper, crip shot, tainted mes

this only supports the notion that it is not the game that is forcing this kind of meta, its the players. Dual dismiss condition removal has been on monk bars for months and months now, yet noone really had the courage to run something that took advantage of this. I can only assume they were too scared of being made fun of, for some reason people feel that running anything but what everyone else is running is a crime or somewhat frowned upon or socially unacceptable. Or is it that people have just forgotten how to play pressure because of the way that pressure had been ''blocked'' out in the past year or so?

clever metagaming is identifying that there is a pattern in the builds that everyone seems to run and exploiting these patterns. vZ claimed that they ran that condition build in the finals because they were pretty certain Rawr would run their usual build which has little to no mass condition removal. Metagaming is not an exact science however, it is just a matter of probabilities and expectations. Remember the hex meta? People started to run hex eater vortex and expel hex paragons and purge signets. But if they fought against a team with no hexes they found alot of their utility proved useless.

Its no different now. Monks arent bringing any significant condition removal, and people are balling in wards.

Im glad to see condition pressure making a slight peak into the meta but im suprised it took so long (one of my fav builds was the old KGYU pressure build with the deb shot rangers).

and i really hope some good guilds run a condition build to show everyone that it can work. Im not saying that it should be the ONLY thing people run, i just think it shows us that you arent stuck with running certain builds.

whether we see any real shift in the meta is yet to be seen, and we should probably wait for the next skill update before we make any quick judgements.

I can't remember who it was, but some guild the other day in Obs mode was using a Martyr ranger.
It was working really well; the other team was some serious condition pressure, and the 10 sec recharge or whatever Martyr is was just enough to provide good relief.

Byron · Oct 03, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

this only supports the notion that it is not the game that is forcing this kind of meta, its the players.

When balanced gameplay became a battle of interrupts, hexes really fell off the radar. With a good ranger and MoR pleak mesmer at the stand, it's not hard to stop hexes. So, we're left with the notion, "Blockway, zomg, how2beat?" Condition pressure - SoD and aegis won't do much against poison and diesase. Imo, it took a long time for the condition meta to come around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Anyone not running Ether Prodigy + Heal Party when expecting condition pressure is either stupid or arrogant

Not sure if this is a sarcastic comment, tbh. With an enemy Me/N tainted, signet of humility does become a big problem for LoD. Eprod is pretty tasty against pressure in general. But, with all the split rangers still going around, it also seems a mild liability imho.

Mello_Macabre · Oct 04, 2007, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Except you say Backfire is meta.
And that meta has 2 DA para
You obviously have no clue what the meta has been for the past 3 months.

A basic meta would be 2 Conjure Evis Axe, Crip Shot ranger, MoR/E Surge mesmer with NO backfire!, A Blind Surge or 1 DA para, normally a b surge, SoD and LoD, rt or e/mo flagger.

And now, the meta is switching to condition pressure, fast cast taint, crip shot, trapper and what not.

twicky_kid · Oct 04, 2007, 03:29 AM // 03:29

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Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Yes because this is all agressive refrain is used for...

Please stop posting. Youre giving everyone a headache.

The dmg you are going to get either way. Why not get more of it? The synergy between leadership and adrenaline party wide shouts is why its really used. It basicly allows you to gain your energy 25% faster. If there was no Aggressive Refrain paragons would use some other IAS. The only viable option would be frenzy or flail and those have obvious backlash. This would also help on the shields up front. Without leaderships infinite energy engine going that 10e is going to be much harder to afford. Using DA and sheilds up on the same bar would be problematic.

A very small nerf to leadership with a HUGE nerf to agressive refrain will correct most of the imbalances with the paragon.

Vanquisher · Oct 04, 2007, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Not sure if this is a sarcastic comment, tbh. With an enemy Me/N tainted, signet of humility does become a big problem for LoD. Eprod is pretty tasty against pressure in general. But, with all the split rangers still going around, it also seems a mild liability imho.

No, it wasn't.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 04, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

The dmg you are going to get either way. Why not get more of it? The synergy between leadership and adrenaline party wide shouts is why its really used.

No, it's not.

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Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Please stop posting.

seconded.

SurareVaera · Oct 04, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

I'm pretty annoyed with all the people calling for monk nerfs, especially LoD. Chances are none of those people are even capable of playing monk, and probably spend their time raging in vent for the mesmer to diversion spam b/surge or LoD. Its even more likely that those people are simply bad at the game, and are too stupid to think of ways to beat the current meta without whining to the developers for skill nerfs. If you don't like wards, DA, Aegis, play golden fox strike, wild strike, shattering assault, impale w/ conjure. If you don't like all the blocking, any amount of time spent on obs mode shows that meta builds lack adequate hex removal. Be Team and vZ roll blockway repeatedly with condi pressure. There are skills available for use already that trump the meta, but you'd rather nerf current builds rather than evolve past the meta by actually using your brain.

Instead of complaining, why don't people actually design their own counters? People bring all the blocking and LoD because physical damage is extremely strong. When I say strong, I don't mean in need of a nerf. E-managment for a 2 monk backline takes skill even in the current meta. It's just appalling that people are calling for more stress in the backline, a position which no one wants to play anyways. If you can't kill things, your team is uncoordinated, poor at adapting to situations in game, and probably clueless as to what your midline needs to do to shutdown blockway. Anyone that has spent time playing GvG competently in the last few months knows exactly what has to get shutdown to win against blockway, so complaining for nerfs just tells everyone that you're bad at the game and should uninstall guild wars or stick to alliance battles / dungeons.

Keithark · Oct 04, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurareVaera

I'm pretty annoyed with all the people calling for monk nerfs, especially LoD. Chances are none of those people are even capable of playing monk, and probably spend their time raging in vent for the mesmer to diversion spam b/surge or LoD. Its even more likely that those people are simply bad at the game, and are too stupid to think of ways to beat the current meta without whining to the developers for skill nerfs. If you don't like wards, DA, Aegis, play golden fox strike, wild strike, shattering assault, impale w/ conjure. If you don't like all the blocking, any amount of time spent on obs mode shows that meta builds lack adequate hex removal. Be Team and vZ roll blockway repeatedly with condi pressure. There are skills available for use already that trump the meta, but you'd rather nerf current builds rather than evolve past the meta by actually using your brain.

Instead of complaining, why don't people actually design their own counters? People bring all the blocking and LoD because physical damage is extremely strong. When I say strong, I don't mean in need of a nerf. E-managment for a 2 monk backline takes skill even in the current meta. It's just appalling that people are calling for more stress in the backline, a position which no one wants to play anyways. If you can't kill things, your team is uncoordinated, poor at adapting to situations in game, and probably clueless as to what your midline needs to do to shutdown blockway. Anyone that has spent time playing GvG competently in the last few months knows exactly what has to get shutdown to win against blockway, so complaining for nerfs just tells everyone that you're bad at the game and should uninstall guild wars or stick to alliance battles / dungeons.

OMG....I'm speachless...are you female? If so will you marry me? This has to be one of the best post I have ever seen

TheOneMephisto · Oct 04, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14

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Originally Posted by SurareVaera

I'm pretty annoyed with all the people calling for monk nerfs, especially LoD. Chances are none of those people are even capable of playing monk, and probably spend their time raging in vent for the mesmer to diversion spam b/surge or LoD. Its even more likely that those people are simply bad at the game, and are too stupid to think of ways to beat the current meta without whining to the developers for skill nerfs. If you don't like wards, DA, Aegis, play golden fox strike, wild strike, shattering assault, impale w/ conjure. If you don't like all the blocking, any amount of time spent on obs mode shows that meta builds lack adequate hex removal. Be Team and vZ roll blockway repeatedly with condi pressure. There are skills available for use already that trump the meta, but you'd rather nerf current builds rather than evolve past the meta by actually using your brain.

Instead of complaining, why don't people actually design their own counters? People bring all the blocking and LoD because physical damage is extremely strong. When I say strong, I don't mean in need of a nerf. E-managment for a 2 monk backline takes skill even in the current meta. It's just appalling that people are calling for more stress in the backline, a position which no one wants to play anyways. If you can't kill things, your team is uncoordinated, poor at adapting to situations in game, and probably clueless as to what your midline needs to do to shutdown blockway. Anyone that has spent time playing GvG competently in the last few months knows exactly what has to get shutdown to win against blockway, so complaining for nerfs just tells everyone that you're bad at the game and should uninstall guild wars or stick to alliance battles / dungeons.

Calling for monk nerfs is fine as long as you understand that we need a way to nerf offensive options also. Ofc just nerfing monks while leaving everything alone is bad, but if we take down paragons and the super-physical builds that they allow along with nerfing some of the most potent damage dealers (conjures, dervs), then nerfing some monk options is fine for changing the monk meta (which I don't like at all right now).

Vanquisher · Oct 04, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurareVaera

I'm pretty annoyed with all the people calling for monk nerfs, especially LoD. Chances are none of those people are even capable of playing monk, and probably spend their time raging in vent for the mesmer to diversion spam b/surge or LoD. Its even more likely that those people are simply bad at the game, and are too stupid to think of ways to beat the current meta without whining to the developers for skill nerfs. If you don't like wards, DA, Aegis, play golden fox strike, wild strike, shattering assault, impale w/ conjure. If you don't like all the blocking, any amount of time spent on obs mode shows that meta builds lack adequate hex removal. Be Team and vZ roll blockway repeatedly with condi pressure. There are skills available for use already that trump the meta, but you'd rather nerf current builds rather than evolve past the meta by actually using your brain.

Instead of complaining, why don't people actually design their own counters? People bring all the blocking and LoD because physical damage is extremely strong. When I say strong, I don't mean in need of a nerf. E-managment for a 2 monk backline takes skill even in the current meta. It's just appalling that people are calling for more stress in the backline, a position which no one wants to play anyways. If you can't kill things, your team is uncoordinated, poor at adapting to situations in game, and probably clueless as to what your midline needs to do to shutdown blockway. Anyone that has spent time playing GvG competently in the last few months knows exactly what has to get shutdown to win against blockway, so complaining for nerfs just tells everyone that you're bad at the game and should uninstall guild wars or stick to alliance battles / dungeons.

You're wrong on several levels. Not worth spending time writing them out again.