Curse

TheOneMephisto · Sep 27, 2007, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

This is exactly why SoD will fail if its not spammable. There are cheaper, more efficient, and none elites that can do the job just as well. Right now SoD combined with GoLE is a better choice than anything else hence why its being used. Take GoLE away and there are simply better options. So what if you pre-prot before the spike. They will simply change targets because they saw the HUGE animation just drop down.

I don't think that the problem is really GoLE. I mean, it contributes, but even with GoLE there's no way a monk's energy could keep up with fast, effective target switching. The main problem is that target switching isn't very effective due to the fact that any target you switch onto will probably have 50-75% block on it already.

twicky_kid · Sep 27, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

I don't think that the problem is really GoLE. I mean, it contributes, but even with GoLE there's no way a monk's energy could keep up with fast, effective target switching. The main problem is that target switching isn't very effective due to the fact that any target you switch onto will probably have 50-75% block on it already.

In the current environment I'd agree. If the passive defense gets nerfed like everyone is suggesting SoD will be left out in the cold. There is no way to use it effectively as a pre-prot because of its animation and you can't spam it because of its cost. Combine that with any energy denial from the opposing team and you'll be in a very bad situation.

Vanquisher · Sep 27, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Pretty sure rank 200 isn't top tier, and being a benchwarmer doesn't count as playing for a top 100 guild. If all the top tier players disagree with something you believe is true, I'm fairly certain there's a reason for it. Like that retarded LoD=free comment. What a joke.

You're a joke.

(See what I did there?)

erk · Sep 27, 2007, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Pretty sure rank 200 isn't top tier, and being a benchwarmer doesn't count as playing for a top 100 guild. If all the top tier players disagree with something you believe is true, I'm fairly certain there's a reason for it. Like that retarded LoD=free comment. What a joke.

There is a strong flow on effect created by observer mode, whereby new build ideas spread through the ranks very quickly without much scrutiny. That applies to the top 50 or the top 1,000, as they are all humans behaving as humans do.

Remember the saying "Just because something is popular, doesn't mean it's any good."

Riotgear · Sep 27, 2007, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

What was needed was a comprehensive look at ALL forms of passive defense.

I don't think it was looked at because all of the problem skills didn't USED to be problem skills. In fact, all of the problem-skills tend to be balanced by themselves, but have become problematic as other abilities have been buffed and given them fuel. A 10e shout that is kind of useless against anything other than rangers or paragons in a skill line that is kind of useless for most midliners and was formerly just a cockblock for ranger-spike is pretty balanced in itself... Until a class with a bottomless energy pool and a use for Tactics gets to cast it and get most of its cost refunded.

MoR/Ward is a byproduct of MoR and GoLE. Aegis chains are a byproduct of GoLE. Shields Up is a byproduct of Leadership. Shield of Regeneration is a byproduct of GoLE.

All of these things have had casualties already. Leadership already damaged Watch Yourself, MoR already damaged Diversion, GoLE already damaged hexes and Aegis. There are other problems too, but if they want to take a look at passive defense, they need to be asking the question "how long has this been around in its current state without being broken? Why is it suddenly broken now?"

erk · Sep 27, 2007, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

There are other problems too, but if they want to take a look at passive defense, they need to be asking the question "how long has this been around in its current state without being broken? Why is it suddenly broken now?"

Nerfing anti-melee necros was one of the recent influences.

There is a mindset in GvG that the main damage dealers should be melee, in particular Warriors, there is a reluctance to use casters for damage, although casters represent half the available professions. Since anti-melee hexes were recently nerfed from the meta, the main counter for melee is blocking, so there you have it.

twicky_kid · Sep 27, 2007, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Nerfing anti-melee necros was one of the recent influences.

There is a mindset in GvG that the main damage dealers should be melee, in particular Warriors, there is a reluctance to use casters for damage, although casters represent half the available professions. Since anti-melee hexes were recently nerfed from the meta, the main counter for melee is blocking, so there you have it.

In a game with all casters there is no pressure its all spike for kills. It becomes a game of your spike vs their monks.

Since LoD monks I've noticed a steady decline in good monks. That will work until you get higher up on the ladder.

Yue · Sep 27, 2007, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Suggesting LoD was "essentially" free detracted from this conversation. Not like much else you posted holds any weight either.

Riotgear · Sep 27, 2007, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

There is a mindset in GvG that the main damage dealers should be melee, in particular Warriors, there is a reluctance to use casters for damage, although casters represent half the available professions. Since anti-melee hexes were recently nerfed from the meta, the main counter for melee is blocking, so there you have it.

There are a lot of counters to melee: Snares, blocks, miss-inducing effects, kiting, armor buffs, linebacking, and hammering them when they pop Frenzy. This is why melee-based offense is so commonly smiled upon, because it means offense is challenging to play, much more so than "Use Searing Flames, Glowing Gaze, and Liquid Flame on recharge." (This is also why Melandru is kind of retarded, you'll notice half of those counters don't apply to trees.)

The problem with using casters for damage is that the pacing of magic DDs is fundamentally flawed: If your spells do 80 damage or so, then due to recast rates, you're going to be doing craptastic DPS. Protective Spirit alone will nerf a huge chunk of your damage. As that number goes up, you'll find that pressure doesn't become viable before spells start hitting the 100-ish damage mark, at which point you can just pack 6 copies of that spell and 123spike with it. That's why every caster-oriented meta except Searing Flames has been spike.

Caster damage is easy, spike is even easier, and most people don't like metas where button-mashers can win because there isn't really any skill involved in hitting T and pressing the Oppressive Gaze and Vampiric Gaze buttons, or the Spirit Rift and Ancestor's Rage buttons, or the Wielder's Strike and Spirit Burn buttons, etc. Mind Blast is about the closest there's ever been to real caster pressure, and it's still pretty brainless.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 27, 2007, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by themeteor

wait so the majority can't have an opinion? Just because a guild is not as good tactics calls or has players of a lower skill base means that they don't understand the mechanics of the game?

Just because you can beat me doesn't mean you understand how you won better then I understand how I lost.

The game should be balanced around the top level of play, a skill shouldn't be nerfed because someone in a rank 7,000 guild can't beat it.

Vanquisher · Sep 27, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Balance should be gone about objectively with regards to the power of a skill in relation to its cost, cast, duration, recharge, investment required, and effect.

People posting in this thread do not seem to understand that, instead saying "well run x to counter y".

If you're one of those people you really need to take a step back and ask yourself why you should be forcing someone to take a skill in purely to deal with an overpowered skill y. It is easy to see how Ward Melee can be broken. With permanent uptime for relatively little investment due to a skill that breaks the balance mechanics it has placed upon it, along with equipment issues, and the use of an attribute that allows one to get past the problem of interrupts, you have a problem.

When you add the fact that you can also throw in various energy management skills that break the cost mechanic of other skills down like GoLE does, for no investment, you run into problems.

While these skills, individually, may be balanced, the problem comes when they are used in conjunction with each other, like it usually has in the past. Other related problems come with the fact that running more of x makes it exponentially more powerful. Examples of this include Searing Flames and the layers of defense you see in todays climate, or various hex builds. There are, and always will be issues with balance, because you have to make skills viable to run one copy of, but not make them so they get infinately more powerful when more than one copy is run.

Bio-Flame · Sep 27, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

So, Vanquisher, you're clearly talking about the MoR Mesmer/E build.

How would you balance it?

MoR?
GoLE?

Vanquisher · Sep 27, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Both?

It was just an example of why skills that break the balance of other skills is bad.

Theli · Sep 27, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Both Please Both!!!

TheOneMephisto · Sep 27, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

I'd support a lowering of glyph to 6-7 energy at 0 estorage, though trying to keep it about the same at 9-10 storage.

And MoR needs to get ripped up. Rebuff the dom stuff back to what it used to be and make MoR take a pretty big hit.

Ego · Sep 27, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Or just make some of the Mes Elites except MoR, HEV and E-Surge worthwhile using.

NoPantsRepublic · Sep 27, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Veering off from the current discussions back to paragons:

I think that instead of nerfing Watch Yourself!'s power, its spammability should be nerfed. So maybe double the adren cost but also boost the duration to compensate. That way paragons don't get as much energy out of it, but it would be better for warriors, since they won't receive the adren penalty as often.

Riotgear · Sep 27, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by d00m1n470r

Or just make some of the Mes Elites except MoR, HEV and E-Surge worthwhile using.

Because buffing the other elites is going to make people stop running MoR.

Byron · Sep 28, 2007, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoPantsRepublic

I think that instead of nerfing Watch Yourself!'s power, its spammability should be nerfed. So maybe double the adren cost but also boost the duration to compensate.

That's a bit harsh. I think 5 adrenaline and a "this shout ends if ally hits with an attack" clause would be good enough. The skill in itself isn't problematic, just the way it works with the stand paragon.

zling · Sep 28, 2007, 12:41 AM // 00:41

main problems in the current meta that can be fixed easily:
MoR: make it an enchantment like the other MoR(recall) and/or make it work on Mesmer spells only
LoD: increase recharge by 2-4 seconds
Aegis: increase cost back to 15 and/or scaling block rate
Aggressive Refain: remove the recasting effect or giving it some kind of draw back, perhaps an increase in casting/recharge of shouts/chants while under it?
WaM: make it a 25 energy spell but improve duration/recharge ratio
WY: increase adrenaline cost to 6, increase duration, maybe lower armor bonus a bit as well
Shields Up: increase cost/recharge
Defensive Anthem: reduce duration and/or increase recharge
GoLE: the next 1...3 spells 10 energy or the next 2 spells cost 5...15 less energy
Paragorn and to some extent Warrior Shouts/Chants in general: increase duration and recharge to make them less spammable thus less energy gain from leadership and less effects on echoes
let the match roll for 20-30 minutes before VoD

another thing that should be done is increase back the offensive capabilities to be able to deal with all the defense.
improving skills that bypass blockway such expose defenses, irresistable throw/blow, seeking arrows, etc
and adding more of those