Curse

twicky_kid · Sep 22, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimeToGetIntense

LoD Monks still run out of energy. They use other skills aside from LoD because LoD only eats up pressure damage. They need to remove conditions and prot people because mitigating damage is still worth it (hell, it's necessary) even if you have LoD.

Anyway, don't call it "Free" because it's not, it's just really, really cheap.

Notice the post was "essentially" free. Again, grade school stuff. Its the most energy efficient heal there has ever been.

Name another skill off the monk bar besides aegis that will net you energy.

Auron of Neon · Sep 22, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Notice the post was "essentially" free. Again, grade school stuff. Its the most energy efficient heal there has ever been.

Saying it is free is wrong. It's also not the most energy efficient heal there is, take a peek at Spirit Light Weapon; 240 hp for 5e is pretty hawt.

Quote:

Name another skill off the monk bar besides aegis that will net you energy.

Signet of Rejuvenation.

Your logic is bad. Go into GvG and use only LoD and watch how fast your team dies.

twicky_kid · Sep 22, 2007, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

Saying it is free is wrong. It's also not the most energy efficient heal there is, take a peek at Spirit Light Weapon; 240 hp for 5e is pretty hawt.

Signet of Rejuvenation.

Your logic is bad. Go into GvG and use only LoD and watch how fast your team dies.

Wow you really can't add. Healing 4 people with LoD is 300 hp. 3 people is 225. Spirit Light Weapon also takes 10 seconds for only 1 target. Now lets take LoD over 10 seconds (2 cast). 4 targets 600 hp. 2 people 450 hp. Spirit light and no other heal on the game is even comparable to LoD.

Sig of rejuvenation will net you energy that is true but the logic is not bad. Go down to 0 energy and watch how long you can keep your team alive with ONLY LoD. Now go down to 0 energy and see how long you can keep your team alive with other elites.

Riotgear · Sep 22, 2007, 03:06 AM // 03:06

LoD is free the same way Gift of Health is free. (i.e. it's not)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

It's also not the most energy efficient heal there is, take a peek at Spirit Light Weapon; 240 hp for 5e is pretty hawt.

If you want to judge pure efficiency of non-signet heals, Restful Breeze gives 200 at 9 attribute and isn't even elite, Zealous Benediction gives more HP per energy than either regardless.

The difference is they're clunkier, Zealous Benediction is all-or-nothing, with nothing being Heal Other, and Spirit Light Weapon has the same problem has Healing Breeze: Slow-acting, high chance of overheal.

LoD heals for 225HP if it affects 3 people, pretty much all of that healing is going to be non-overheal and more efficient than any other practical way of recovering that lost health. As more people are affected, its efficiency climbs even higher.

TheOneMephisto · Sep 22, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

SoD shouldn't be nerfed. Sure it's basically god mode on a character for a couple seconds, but it gets absolutely destroyed by target switching. The problem right now is that target switching isn't viable since there's so much passive defense going around. Once the passive defense goes away, suddenly SoD isn't that bad because if you target switch that monk just wasted 10 energy.

And don't be retarded saying that it's "free." It may be dirt cheap, but it still isn't free unless all the LoD monk is doing is spamming LoD without using any other skills. Go out and throw out a couple prot spirits, then spam LoD. Will you have as much energy as the person who threw out those prot spirits then didn't spam LoD after a little bit? Of course not. If LoD is the only skill on your bar, then it's free.

By your logic, Diversion is free because in Diversion's 14ish cycle time, you gain more than 10 energy.

But yes, LoD is overpowered. Basically, it's a superefficient heal that is dirt cheap, fast cycle, never overheals, and is already fairly efficient at 2 people healed.

Um Yeah · Sep 22, 2007, 03:59 AM // 03:59

LoD wasn't good just because it mops up damage. Since it was released, it allowed flag runners to become more of 3rd healers with a speed buff and snares than they used to be pre-NF. Pre-NF, Flag Runners had Eprod, Heal Party, Bflash, Deep Freeze, Ice Spikes, Gale, Heal Breeze, and WBS/Armor of Mist (iirc, some skills were interchangeable). That gave them the ability to mop up pressure damage, mitigate phy dmg on splits and at stand, snares on split, Big snare for pushes at stand, utility in Gale, NPC support and some mild stand support in Breeze, and the ability to run flags with a speed buff. Since then you've had E/Rt's and E/Mo's. E/Rt's were geared more towards offensive splitting with NPC support if using Shatterstone, or minor flag push/split push snares in Trident or Shackles with more NPC support than SS, and E/Mo's being geared more towards immense NPC support and stand support with some minor push support in gust, at least imo. Occasionally there's the monk runner with its obvious benefits. Honestly, I don't remember what people ran for flag runners in between LoD becoming more popular after NF's release and E/Rt's with Shatterstone/Trident/Shackles.

Anyway, imo, flagger roles have become more specialized but a lot less diverse with the addition of LoD to the game. Maybe some other things contributed to this shift, such as changes to VoD, but I think LoD is the most influencing. Whether that is a good or bad thing is up to the individual, but personally flagger isn't nearly as fun to play without a 3 second Gale T_T.

You could argue that LoD be nerfed to give diversity back to runners, but even if LoD was nerfed, that probably wouldn't happen. Honestly I don't think LoD should be nerfed because of the efficiency and the diversity it gives to monk bars. I don't think that many of the monks left playing this game would be terribly good at playing BLight, considering the bar's inefficiencies compared to today's options and the meta of the BLight monk vs today's meta. I think LoD's relatively overpowered, but it's not exactly nerf-worthy.

TimeToGetIntense · Sep 22, 2007, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Um Yeah

Anyway, imo, flagger roles have become more specialized but a lot less diverse with the addition of LoD to the game. Maybe some other things contributed to this shift...

Mending Touch. Air Eles aren't useful on a split anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Um Yeah

You could argue that LoD be nerfed to give diversity back to runners, but even if LoD was nerfed, that probably wouldn't happen. Honestly I don't think LoD should be nerfed because of the efficiency and the diversity it gives to monk bars. I don't think that many of the monks left playing this game would be terribly good at playing BLight, considering the bar's inefficiencies compared to today's options and the meta of the BLight monk vs today's meta. I think LoD's relatively overpowered, but it's not exactly nerf-worthy.

I think LoD should be nerfed. Right now you're forced to use it because it's simply the best option for a party heal. This makes it simple to force your own pressure through: shut down the LoD. Getting rid of it is pretty simple too. It's a skill you can interrupt and can be disabled by Signet of Humility. Keep in mind, I'm not saying it's easy, but it's simple. This makes the game a lot less interesting. There are tons of interesting party heals availible, but they are all harder to fit in a build that LoD is and less effective. So I think LoD should take a small recharge nerf to limit the healing over time it gives your party and the other options (Protective Was Kaolai, Release Enchantments) should get small buffs to make them viable options. I think those are more interesting skills that you have to think more about to get rid of than LoD is and also you have to think more about how to get them into a build. Which one you use depends on your build unlike LoD, which is in every build.

Another issue is that the other Healing Elites are terrible. If other heal party options are made viable, you won't run a Healing Elite if you don't run LoD, you'll run two Prot Elites or perhaps a B-Light. If the other Healing Elites are made viable, the heal party options don't need to match what LoD is now and LoD doesn't need to be quite as good as it currently is.

twicky_kid · Sep 22, 2007, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

And don't be retarded saying that it's "free." It may be dirt cheap, but it still isn't free unless all the LoD monk is doing is spamming LoD without using any other skills. Go out and throw out a couple prot spirits, then spam LoD. Will you have as much energy as the person who threw out those prot spirits then didn't spam LoD after a little bit? Of course not. If LoD is the only skill on your bar, then it's free.

If you really want to be good at energy manament watch the skills that have a lower recharge compared to how much energy you will gain over x seconds. I can always predict how much energy I'll have by using what skills. Many times I will pause for 2 seconds between spells just to give myself a pace to keep my energy going.

With LoD you never have to consider that. You will always have more energy after recharge than when you cast it the first time. Other skills like prot spirit, in your example, you have to watch how many times you cast it with x seconds because you know you'll burn your energy too fast. You know that each cast of Prot spirit is going to cost you 7.7 seconds of regen. RoF and dismiss is the same way 3.8 seconds. Anyways if you don't understand this concept by now you probably never will.

With LoD you can always use it on recharge if needed and your energy will be fine. Its the basic dumming down factor. You never have to think....hhhmmm...should I use LoD now? The only time you wouldn't is when you are not under pressure. You don't have to target, will always have energy, e denial won't work on you, and its super efficient.

Looking at the other elites though there is nothing impressive out there. If LoD is nerfed all that's left is RC and ZB. SoD will hold up as long as the passive def does but if the passive def gets a huge nerf it'll be replaced with guardian. The monk Elites needs major help.

Oh ya and btw healing ribbons doesn't work with healer's boon. Just a bug we found the other day.

Mirage Isnt Emo · Sep 22, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

No one ran LoD until the Winterfest tournament, which was a significant time after the release. Up until then people were still running ether prod/heal party. I know this, because this was one of the most thought about decisions that a lot of guilds had to make when making builds for the Winterfest. The skill is efficient, but not completely broken. A problem in this game is that it is coming down to eurospike. The mesmers in this build take less thought then those in a one mesmer build, and allows for a decent amount of shutdown.

Rangers are pretty worthless at the moment, because a lot of players don't seem to be able to run them, and don't split off enough. The problem with defense-way, is that after it is setup it becomes pretty hard to crack. SoD in itself is not a problem, as it generally takes a bit of skill to use active prots. I would like to see passive defense get nerfed, but also see a buff to a lot of active prots, which can reward player skill over anything.

Spamming LoD on recharge will most likely just get it interrupted. It is not hard to see it casted, count 5 seconds and then hit dshot, this honestly wouldn't even take that talented of a player. Again, the problem seems to lie with the defense.

Another problem is the fast VoD, as many have already stated. Not packing a build that can win at VoD, is just beyond stupid. A lot of teams can run these defense skills, have enough offense to blow up your NPC's just due to the fact they have esurge + splinter weapon + ancestors. Not running a lot of defense will also be gamebreaking. If you do not run a lot of defense, then you better be running a good pressure build because most likely they can out defense you, and blow you up at vod. This has mainly been a problem with the eurospike build, even though it was more trouble back then. Used to be they would just Esurge + spiritual pain all your npc's, and they would be dead.

JR · Sep 22, 2007, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Obviously you don't the real power of LoD so let me explain.

At 4 pips of energy regen you gain 1.3 energy/sec. LoD is 5e cost with a 5/sec recharge. So by the time its recharged you gained 6.5 energy. In essence its free!!! That's my real problem with LoD. E denial has no real affect on LoD. You can spam LoD forever and not run out of energy.

That's a ridiculous argument, and you are wrong.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 22, 2007, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Ok, I give up. If people can't do simple math there is no hope. This is grade school stuff.

You use 5 energy but over 5 seconds (recharge) you gain 6.5 from regen. You net 1.5 energy even if you spam LoD on recharge. The only time you truly use energy is spells in quick succession or spam a skill on recharge that uses more energy than its recharge compared to your energy regen.

I don't update my info on Guru.

It's not 'essentially free' it would be if it was the only skill that cost energy on your bar, but since that is not the case...

LoD is a really good skill, doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed.

The reason everyone uses it is because there really aren't any viable alternatives.

You applied to join XoO so I'm guessing your high end GvG experience is limited/non-existant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by some guy

Passive defense makes it hard to pack in enough damage to kill anyone even with proper tactics, LoD means that anything you do deliver that fails to score a kill is severely diminished in value, because it's going to get cleaned up just by coincidence.

Heal Party was more interrupt-prone, required Prodigy which came with problems of its own, and wasn't always available at the stand. While the options for party healing are pretty limited right now, LoD is doing its job a little too well.

LoD doesn't save spikes it heals up pressure.

Heal party was a 2 second cast sure, but the flagger didn't have to be anywhere near the fight to use it whereas the LoD monk can't really abandon his position..

Buff other partyhealing, keep LoD as it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the same guy again

Harassing them is still going to be a chore, because they'll still have 86 armor even while attacking, more with WY, and as soon as they start kiting, they become an even harder target. What exactly is -20 while attacking supposed to do?

They will still have a lot of armor but it will be easier to kill them, paragons require a lot of changes, aggressive refrain is just the most apparent one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by some other guy

SoD shouldn't be nerfed. Sure it's basically god mode on a character for a couple seconds, but it gets absolutely destroyed by target switching. The problem right now is that target switching isn't viable since there's so much passive defense going around. Once the passive defense goes away, suddenly SoD isn't that bad because if you target switch that monk just wasted 10 energy.

It has a 5r with a 20% chance of being halved, target switching is a somewhat effective way of dealing with SoD but you have to switch like every 4-5 seconds.

SoD will still be a really good prot at 8r but you would actually have to think about using it because if you cast it on someone that doesnt need it the other team can take advantage of that whereas with 5r chances are it will be back in time to use it again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by some retard

I think LoD should be nerfed. Right now you're forced to use it because it's simply the best option for a party heal. This makes it simple to force your own pressure through: shut down the LoD. Getting rid of it is pretty simple too. It's a skill you can interrupt and can be disabled by Signet of Humility. Keep in mind, I'm not saying it's easy, but it's simple.

LoD is the best option because it's the ONLY option.

So you're saying it's not hard to shut LoD down and yet it's overpowered because...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by some dumbass

If you really want to be good at energy manament watch the skills that have a lower recharge compared to how much energy you will gain over x seconds. I can always predict how much energy I'll have by using what skills. Many times I will pause for 2 seconds between spells just to give myself a pace to keep my energy going.

With LoD you never have to consider that. You will always have more energy after recharge than when you cast it the first time. Other skills like prot spirit, in your example, you have to watch how many times you cast it with x seconds because you know you'll burn your energy too fast. You know that each cast of Prot spirit is going to cost you 7.7 seconds of regen. RoF and dismiss is the same way 3.8 seconds. Anyways if you don't understand this concept by now you probably never will.

With LoD you can always use it on recharge if needed and your energy will be fine. Its the basic dumming down factor. You never have to think....hhhmmm...should I use LoD now? The only time you wouldn't is when you are not under pressure. You don't have to target, will always have energy, e denial won't work on you, and its super efficient.

LoD is cheap, we get it, you're not supposed to use skills on recharge simply because you can (only paragons are supposed to do this).

It's effective and easy to shut down, which is why I think it's fine. On top of this there's no alternatives and without partyhealing everyone would just run hex/condition pressure..

Avarre · Sep 22, 2007, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

You use 5 energy but over 5 seconds (recharge) you gain 6.5 from regen. You net 1.5 energy even if you spam LoD on recharge. The only time you truly use energy is spells in quick succession or spam a skill on recharge that uses more energy than its recharge compared to your energy regen.

If you factor regen into skill costs, then you have to take into account that using it to reduce the statistical cost of a skill increases the costs of all other skills on your bar in relation that are no longer covered by energy regen.

More importantly, you are wrong. This is because the skill takes energy when you cast it.

Vaga · Sep 22, 2007, 11:18 AM // 11:18

lod is too cheap, so is aegis.

In addition to lod being very efficient, it lets teams not run heal party on their flagger so that their flagger can just become a tank which makes splitting a lot less effective which is bad for the game. LoD has two non elite alternatives in mystic and heal party. Clearly they aren't as good but surely they must be considered alternatives.

A lot of stuff needs to be toned down all at once which will probably not happen and the game will be more broken than ever :|

LifesRestorer · Sep 22, 2007, 11:33 AM // 11:33

dude thats like saying meteor shower is free. you gain all energy back and exhaustion when its recharged.

moko · Sep 22, 2007, 11:57 AM // 11:57

quit this bullshit about LoD being free already goddamnit.

if you want to discuss LoD deeper, go do it in pvp skill discussions and i'll move all your crap there so you're happy.

v o i d · Sep 22, 2007, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Shield of Deflection: I still think you could easily kill that skill, but a 7 or 8 sec recharge sounds like a nice improvement.

Watch Yourself: The armor bonus is too high, considering it's also emanagement for Paragons. If you'd get like +10 armor (instead of +18) at 10 Tactics, it would be quite okay.

Mantra of Recovery: 10 energy with a slightly higher up-time. Sure, you could run your melee ward on an ESurge or HEV guy, but then you'll have gaps and are either short on energy / enchant removal or play with suboptimal Domination.

Aggressive Refrain: I can't really decide if -10 or -20 while attacking is better; atm I favor the -10 solution.

twicky_kid · Sep 22, 2007, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by v o i d

Shield of Deflection: I still think you could easily kill that skill, but a 7 or 8 sec recharge sounds like a nice improvement.

Take away the passive defense and I don't think SoD can survive. Guardian is a much cheaper option that can handle target switches.

Riotgear · Sep 22, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

LoD doesn't save spikes it heals up pressure.

Yes, I know, HP did the same, the point is that it makes the cost of patching up someone that's getting beat on whatever it takes to force a target switch and get them back up to a safe level, i.e. 50%, then LoD will take care of the rest by coincidence. The margin for error becomes a lot higher.

Passive defense naturally makes it even easier to keep people in the "safe zone," but LoD is extremely good at minimizing the cost of saves and, despite having some options available, is still harder to deal with than HP was.

Quote:

They will still have a lot of armor but it will be easier to kill them, paragons require a lot of changes, aggressive refrain is just the most apparent one.

Aggressive Refrain is indeed the most significant one, but the concern is that they are still going to be a far cry from squishy if they can just hit Esc and be just as hard as before. You can KD them and their armor will go up. I'm having a hard time thinking of how you'll be able to effectively exploit -20AL while attacking when all they have to do is sort-of kite and they become a wasted effort again.

Quote:

LoD is the best option because it's the ONLY option.

People would probably be trying to fold Prodigy+HP back in if LoD didn't exist, it just wouldn't be an air ele.

Vanquisher · Sep 22, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Buff other partyhealing, keep LoD as it is.

Nerf all forms of Party Healing, imo. But also tweak attacking options, and other defensive options. Nerfs to all areas making the game more skill intensive will only serve as a good thing.

TimeToGetIntense · Sep 22, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

LoD is the best option because it's the ONLY option.

So you're saying it's not hard to shut LoD down and yet it's overpowered because...?

I tried to emphasize the difference between "simple" and "easy". My point is that it's very straightforward or "simple" to go about shutting down LoD. You DShot it, Diversion it, or Humility it. It comes down to your midline's skill and the enemy Monk's skill too, of course, but it's not a very interesting interaction.