Curse

John Panda · Oct 29, 2007, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

Here's the things I would like to get changed:

Buffs:

Feigned Neutrality – Decrease recharge to 15 seconds. Remove armor bonus.

you think taking away 80+ armor is buffing? ..
.. if you did this Shadow Refuge WAY greater than Feigned Neutrality.. <<

InfernalSuffering · Oct 29, 2007, 02:32 AM // 02:32

I just wanted to give sins a dependable self heal in split situations. Maybe some armor should be kept but feigned neutrality with its current recharge is nowhere near depenable and any decent ranger can interrupt shadow refuge. Perhaps not buffing but I would like some skill dependent sins to still exist after they hopefully nerf the crap out of instagib sp sins.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 29, 2007, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Avatar of melandru is not interesting btw and immunity to conditions is retarded.

I look forward to seeing the top teams reach the same level of Guild Wars understanding as you have, so they can start winning monthly tournaments with builds based around Melandru dervishes. They're smart players, and I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

Vaga · Oct 29, 2007, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Mel dervs are pretty common in balanced builds and more often than not there's a derv in the monthly championship game. In addition to that theres the assassin split that has a mel derv as well as the derv spike build which has two, and pretty much every hex build has dervishes. It mostly depends on the map rotation how many derv's you see.

You also have to bring a bunch of stuff to counter mel dervs since your usual warrior counters like blind/cripple don't work and it's pretty hard to stop them from pushing your shit in when they have form up.

Riotgear · Oct 29, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I look forward to seeing the top teams reach the same level of Guild Wars understanding as you have, so they can start winning monthly tournaments with builds based around Melandru dervishes. They're smart players, and I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

I fail to see how this argument has anything to do with how "interesting" Melandru is.

Personally I find Mel's to be very one-dimensional, and I can't really describe playing one as anything but boring. I get to have minimal utility outside of Rending Touch and maybe Imbue, and I get to alternate between suck and overpowered every minute. Awesome.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 29, 2007, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I fail to see how this argument has anything to do with how "interesting" Melandru is.

Personally I find Mel's to be very one-dimensional, and I can't really describe playing one as anything but boring. I get to have minimal utility outside of Rending Touch and maybe Imbue, and I get to alternate between suck and overpowered every minute. Awesome.

Then the question becomes, what skills need to be changed to make Melandru dervs more interesting to play?

I'll give you a hint - the answer is not nerfing Melandru so every dervish has to use some shitty one-dimensional scythe elite if they want to apply Deep Wounds.

If people were arguing for changes to the 'boring' non-elite Dervish skills like Heart of Fury or Guiding Hands to make those skills more interesting, I'd be agreeing with them. But Avatar of Melandru at least allows that character to skirmish effectively.

Vaga · Oct 29, 2007, 04:28 AM // 04:28

This isn't about making mel derv's interesting its about game balance and mel dervs are imbalanced.

Riotgear · Oct 29, 2007, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Then the question becomes, what skills need to be changed to make Melandru dervs more interesting to play?

The Dervish class's utility is fundamentally flawed in that it relies too much on "bomb enchantment" management, a mechanic that hasn't worked out at all. That or fire-and-forget abilities which are the bane of skill-based play, Harrier's Grasp being a fine past example, and Melandru being the latest addition.

Nerfing Melandru is not going to force people use "shitty scythe elites," it is going to make them use the next-best option, which may be shitty scythe elites, or it might just be a warrior. Nobody forces teams to slot a Dervish, then figure out what build to play on it. I'd probably rather it be a warrior, because at least that's not promoting some braindead mechanic like minute-long godmode and mashing the Wearying Strike button until your index finger bleeds.

Melandru being broken and Dervish DW options sucking are two separate problems, and letting problems stay to "offset" other problems does not bring things any closer to fixed. It actually makes it more difficult, because you can't really make any non-overboard changes to stuff like Wounding Strike if the rampaging tree is a better option anyway.

Do I want to see the Dervish class salvaged? Actually, yes, I do. Do I want Melandru to stay broken until that happens? No. That's not only retarded, it's also an impossibility, the reason for which is detailed in the previous paragraph.

Seamus Finn · Oct 29, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Then the question becomes, what skills need to be changed to make Melandru dervs more interesting to play?

To be interesting I would say dervs need some good meelee utility: KDs, Interrupts, etc. As it is, they are dipping into other classes to get a little(unspec'd bulls strike? I've seen it).

Razz L Dazzle · Oct 29, 2007, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Any of the proposed changes to the melandru avatar would eliminate it from play and are unlikely, and decrease diversity. Currently is isn't that overpowered as its being made to believe. It was run a lot in current split templates because of its VoD power and ability to run flags without worry of cripples. Immunity to blind is a good alternative as a melee class. Kiting, water snares and hexes all still applicable. I'd leave the avatar alone.

Wearying strike- still problematic. I still like its synergy with melandru but its ability to cause high damage AoE deep wounds is too much, especially at VoD.

I really don't like the way it shines at VoD, which is more a problem of Npc's standing on top of each than anything else. The damage a scythe does is too powerful, and the 3/4 seconds attacks that do +30 damage are insane as finishers. Heart of Fury feels a little to good when i've played derv.

Izzy will be doubtful to just eliminate Melandru and derv's from GvG play. Ideas should center around making it more "interesting" than dead. The ladder being unlikely. I really don't like guiding hands, and melandru's derv buffed by Judges insight + Strength of Honor. Buffing up melandru is where it goes from playable to overpowered much moreso than warrior counterparts.

Zuranthium · Oct 29, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

A change to paragons I would like to see is Shouts/Chants giving a set number of energy (based on leadership, like leadership/3) regardless of how much allies are affected, this will make targetted shouts/chants more viable which promotes more active gameplay.

I talked about this months ago and you said it was a retarded idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The Dervish class's utility is fundamentally flawed in that it relies too much on "bomb enchantment" management, a mechanic that hasn't worked out at all.

All of the expansion classes need to have their Primary Attributes changed/tweaked. Ditto for Soul Reaping (still!) and I wouldn't mind seeing Energy Storage get a small exhaustion-related buff (for each rank of E-storage, your exhaustion skills have a 2% chance of not causing exhaustion).

~Z

Riotgear · Oct 29, 2007, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Kiting isn't an awesome solution with the huge scythe autocrits.

NPC spacing definitely needs to be better though, which would make Splinter+AR significantly less abusive as well.

Quote:

All of the expansion classes need to have their Primary Attributes changed/tweaked.

This isn't so much about their primary as about the concept being botched. The enchantments tend to provide AOE effects on drop and cast, yet the cast times are 0.75-1 and so are the drops, making them worthless the moment you face a target that kites. This is on top of the fact that the effects of most of them are garbage anyway. The only really effective way to drop them in someone's face are Rending Touch and Pious Fury, the latter of which needs a duration buff anyway.

It could be somewhat interesting having enchantments that provide buffs and can be quickly cycled into debuffs as needed, but the implementation is quite simply terrible, and effective passive buffs promote boring gameplay (See: Melandru, Heart of Fury, Conjure, Harrier's Grasp, blah blah)

At this point though, Anet has largely been ignoring GW1 anyway, so I don't think it's realistic to expect the kind of large-scale changes that Dervishes are really in need of to diversify, so it's more realistic to make simple solutions to more-immediate and simple problems. You know, like nerfing the tree.

Vaga · Oct 29, 2007, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Well if you don't nerf melandru you have to change a whole lot of stuff which I find even more unlikely because it will probably take more than the 90 seconds Izzy devotes to skill balance per month. You need to nerf wearying but you have to keep in mind that without mel form dervs are basically high risk in that you are really killable but high reward in that you do a ton of damage. So if you keep Melandru in it's current form you basically have to balance the entire class around one elite.

If kiting, water snares and hexes are all you need to worry about, wouldn't you just bring a bunch of snares and hex removal? Oh wait thats what teams do.

I severely doubt if Izzy is going to be bothered to modify where all the NPC's stand, he's done this quite a few times now and failed on each attempt.

I'm all for making Derv's more interesting and skillful but I would rather that they be nerfed while we sit around and talk about how to fix them than leave them overpowered until Izzy does it, especially as chances are he will never fix them.

Derv's main attribute actually worked really well with pious renewal in the beta event when stepn ran a derv healer, if i were in charge of game balance and wanted derv's to see play I'd likely avoid scythe mastery and look at their other lines for possibilities.

Shmanka · Oct 29, 2007, 06:36 AM // 06:36

I was going to post this into a seperate thread, but to keep this one alive and less cluttered I will post my opinions on necromancers. I have worked on this with another few individuals for quite sometime just waiting to get an opening to post these suggestions.

The Problem with Necromancers

For the past period of time I have experimented and delt a large amount of money into a new necromancer, you've probably seen me in PvE, RA, pug GvG's or the like experimenting with as many skills I could find that were underused on the necro line. There were alot of problems I had seen in PvE for certain but thats a different discussion altogether.

Blood Magic: This attribute is essentially bland, alot of the mechanics revolve around degen and regen for
energy and health. Although this is as far as it goes interestingly enough. Some skills I believe should be buffed
aka Mark of Subversion. along with some of the favored and remembered bloodspiking skills.

Death Magic: The attribute that mainly deals with corpses as another resource. Obviously according to other games
everyone knows how this attribute should work. In my opinion this is one of the more balanced lines of skills.

Curses: Your either really good or really bad, it doesn't go beyond this amount of knowledge to many pvp'ers

Skill Suggestions:

Life Transfer: 10 Energy +4 Seconds 20s Cooldown
This skill has the ability to become powerful for degeneration builds. For some reason though it has been trash since I can remember.
The weakest points were its cooldown and length in comparison to non-elite skills. So I decided to buff those factors.

Soul Leech: Lasts 20 Seconds 10 more lifestealing
A very very bad Backfire, this one just is obvious.

Vampiric Spirit: Lasts 30 Seconds
Small buff wanted to see if something interesting could happen, it's function makes it somewhat worthwhile in other forms of pvp

Feast of Corruption: 10 Energy 15s Cooldown
We don't want this skill broken nor underpowered I believe this is a good medium.

Pain of Disenchantment: 5 Energy 1s Cast time
Had to be buffed.

Signet of Suffering: 15s Cooldown
Had to be buffed as well.

Weaken Knees: The foe now also takes 0...48...57dmg
The KD factor alone was not worth it for me, people use gale/cripshot/cripslash this although could have some usage now.

Aura of the Lich: Cooldown 15s
I'm an RA scrub.

Virulence: 8s Cooldown
Had to be buffed.

Order of Undeath: Sac 17% Max Health, lose 1% whenever damage is delt by minions, Length increased to 10s
Although it's impact on pvp may not be huge at all, does not mean the skill should suck.

Discord: 1s Casttime, 5s Cooldown Reworked, Target foe takes 0..30..35 dmg, if that foe is has a hex/condition/enchantment
that foe takes 0..30..35 for each. (Max 135 Dmg)
This was suggested by someone else I read earlier I think this is a good adjustment for the skill.

Wail of Doom: Cooldown 10s
This is probably the most interesting necro skill of them all, it deserves a shot to be worthwhile and flexible.

Mark of Subversion: 15s Recharge
30 second recharge is ridiculous.

Reckless Haste: Lowered energy cost to 10, -1s in duration
This I believe needed to happen to be more in line with blurred vision.

Weaken Armor: Gives for 0...17..24s Cracked Armor instead, Cast Time 2s, Cooldown 15s
I think we all want this by now.

Putrid Flesh: 5e
Death Nova:1s

Hexer's Vigor: +2 Regen, lasts 15s

Blood Bond:10e Lasts 10 Seconds, +3..+9 Health Regen, -2 Degen
A bad healing breeze, should be interesting.
Blood of the Aggressor: 1/2s
Vampiric Swarm: 2s cast
I want to see something along these lines played 3 seconds makes the skill bad.

Deathly Swarm: 2s cast
Same as above.
Fetid Ground: Reworked: If target foe is suffering from a hex or condition that foe takes 15-65 cold damage and is knocked down.
There is no KD along the necro line at all, so the purpose beforehand was near impossible to create.

Non-Necro Skills:
These here I believe just need to be addressed

Signet of Humility: -3 Seconds, 2s Cast
The problem with humility is the "camping" factor it has on characters rending them useless for the whole game with no skill included.
With this new version of humility 24/7 lockdowns won't happen, it can be used on secondaries, and more difficult to interrupt.
Almost a Bull's Strike for mesmers, needing to know when to use the skill instead of tabbing and making sure the same thing over
and over is disabled.

Death Pact Signet: 12s Recharge
8 seconds has proved from my perspective to be too abusive, in the HA environment time means everything and this skill having
a lower recharge then most other hard rez's makes games prolonged. It's a slap on the wrist but this skill deserves it.

Ether Signet: 30s Recharge
Skill should have more potential
Meteor: 2s
3 Seconds is not effective

Also some suggestions: 20 tournament tokens= 1 Reward point
Flames of Balthazaar removed from HoH Chest

Whenever a reset timer in HoH triggers, the chest gives another drop and a message saying no one has challanged "X" team in HoH

Copied and pasted this out of word pad im tired, will edit later

Div · Oct 29, 2007, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

20 tournament tokens= 1 Reward point

I think everyone hopes we can do something with our 10 stacks of tourney tokens...that actually wouldn't be too bad since I'd cash in on 125 RP right there

X Cytherea X · Oct 29, 2007, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Black Lotus Strike does not need nerfage at all. There is nothing wrong with it paying for the rest of the combo. You still need AT LEAST 20 energy to start the combo in its SIMPLEST form (sp OR expose, not both, and tiger AFTER bls). Nerfing the energy return would ONLY mean more useless waiting around for more energy to afford the full combo, and I do NOT think Izzy would want to shaft assassins into that.

Calling for a recharge nerf on Shadow Prison is RETARDED. What will it result in? MORE USELESS WAITING AROUND. wtf is wrong with you people? This is NOT the kind of gameplay that should be promoted.

Besides, with a dedicated antimelee sitting on the sin the whole effing match, probably 1 out of 5 attempts does he actually get to do the full combo. Probably 1 out of 10 does he even get a kill. If anything, I would put SP back to its glory days form AND THEN buff the recharge to 15, so he can attempt it more often.

Playing this bar is not simple, as many of you wrongfully perceive it. It takes positioning, selecting targets of opportunity, making sure you're clean, knowing when to cancel the combo, when to kite, checking if the target is currently blocking, etc. And when to unload. It's a whole other type of gameplay. Not like a warrior, or a ranger, or a midliner. A type of gameplay Izzy INTENDED from the beginning.

Calling it degenerate is extremely closed-minded. In a war, there are soldiers, commanders, heavy artillery. And there are snipers. Sins are like snipers. They are one-trick ponies, but they have a role to fill. Do not take this away from them by nerfing further than what has already been nerfed (which is A LOT... and yet you are still unsatisfied). Sickening.

Div · Oct 29, 2007, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

Playing this bar is not simple, as many of you wrongfully perceive it.

Yeah, it's pretty hard to hit 1234567 hoping for a kill. If the kill doesn't come through, wait another 20 seconds and repeat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

Calling for a recharge nerf on Shadow Prison is RETARDED. What will it result in? MORE USELESS WAITING AROUND. wtf is wrong with you people? This is NOT the kind of gameplay that should be promoted.

Besides, with a dedicated antimelee sitting on the sin the whole effing match, probably 1 out of 5 attempts does he actually get to do the full combo. Probably 1 out of 10 does he even get a kill.

If you're any good with a sin, you'll go around and hit a few targets for some extra pressure here and there in between combos, kinda like what warriors have to do to get their kills. Also it's not really easy to have someone follow a sin around. With siphon speed, the sin can easily get away and 1234567 on another target pretty easily. With a monk, the monk can remove the blind after bsurge and the sin will easily destroy that ele. And I know it's easy. As a test of broken builds, I rode sinsplit in GvG to top 30 before it even got super popular this month with the new and improved more broken ineptitude flavor, without having much prior sin experience (outside of RA or AB). I'd consider myself an average sin, but then again it doesn't take much skill to find an unprotted target and hit 1234567 or run around in circles until you find a lone target to kill.

The point of the energy nerf is so that:
a) you can't use tiger stance so it'll be easier to catch the spike
b) you'll have to use zealous daggers, cutting down on damage
c) you'll end up with a shorter combo that doesn't kill in 3 seconds out of nowhere
d) sins are actually punished by DP. As it stands, I can have 30% DP and still pull off an entire combo, making my sin just as effective as if I didn't have DP. Most other classes have to play much smarter with DP, so why shouldn't sins?

Love for a class can blind your judgment, and everyone's prone to that.

Shuuda · Oct 29, 2007, 08:35 AM // 08:35

@Shmanka

Cultists Fervor should get buffed as well (lessen the scarfice costs)
Aura of the Lich is fine as it is, and does see use in decent builds in causal end.
Jagged Bones needs changing back to what it was (it was nerfed due to the soul reaping abuse builds, but if SR is fixed, there is no need to kill this skill.)
Lingering Curse also needs a buff.

Burton2000 · Oct 29, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

The fact that the AoD/GPS combo was considered overpowered at factions release and nerfed despite being nowhere near as powerful a spike as the SP sin and having many more drawbacks to it must say something about izzy's unwillingness to nerf this combo for some reason despite it existing for well over 10 months.

pah01 · Oct 29, 2007, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I look forward to seeing the top teams reach the same level of Guild Wars understanding as you have, so they can start winning monthly tournaments with builds based around Melandru dervishes. They're smart players, and I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

Top teams in the past have played FOC spike(EW), fc air spike with a life barrier monk(IB) in tournaments. Other top teams have played spiritual pain mesmer spike(Pnh) or Paraway(Cry). Thumpway (IQ).

I dont think that you would say that those particular builds are "Interesting".

Its a completely different rationale that you use when you decide to play melandru dervishes and other shitty ass builds.

Its got shit all to do with the melandrus dervish being Interesting or that immunity to conditions is retarded, both of which are true.

Joe