Curse

Shuuda · Oct 28, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

I know this is a retarded idea, but why not just make Shadow Prison Cripple sintead of being a hex? It still acts as a shadow step and snare, but doesn't overpower it by covering expose or giving you a hex to start a combo. Like I said, bad idea I guess.

Riotgear · Oct 28, 2007, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

but you still have to carry another snare/speedboost and something to meet the black requirements (probably siphon speed, but that has its own problems)

[skill]Shadowy Burden[/skill] tends to be the snare of choice in most places Haze is run.

Shuuda · Oct 28, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Siphon Speed and Haze is kinda pointless, due to the half range nature of it. Siphon is most Effiecent in builds that don't rely on a shadow step.

Symbol · Oct 28, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Beguilling -> LMS is in theory workable, since casters can't really do anything but run when they're dazed. Too bad LMS is a weak skill.

BlackSephir · Oct 28, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

BoS and HoTO 10e? Yeah, these would be awesome changes...
Not.

Quote:

I know this is a retarded idea, but why not just make Shadow Prison Cripple sintead of being a hex?

I like it. They can also change all Shadow Steps and make them new category- Shadow Steps (innovative)
This way SP wouldn't be Elite Hex but Elite Shadow Step instead. No more cover hex.
Kinda screws up Hex Breaker as defense against SP but meh

Siphon Speed to 10s recharge is good.

LMS- 1/2 activation
Unsuspecting Strike- 5e, longer recharge
Fox Fangs- buff plx, why use it when there's Wild Strike?
Golden Skull Strike- why use it when there's Temple Strike or Beguiling Haze?

Seeping Wound/Wastrel's Collapse- meh, not worth talking about it. They won't do anything.

Melandru- remove 1...1...2 conditions on successful hit?

TheOneMephisto · Oct 28, 2007, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Melandru- remove 1...1...2 conditions on successful hit?

If you want to entirely kill the skill (aka kill the class). One of the biggest draws of Melandru is that it's an extremely effective counter to blind, and this change will basically make it so that mel's dervs are useless under blind, which means that you bring a warrior. Mels dervs aren't really that bad now, warriors are more common and the only reason there were so many in the tourney was because of single stand melee triple split builds. Otherwise, there were a couple teams running warrior and derv frontlines, but there were just as many running dual warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

BoS and HoTO 10e? Yeah, these would be awesome changes...
Not.

And why not? BoS definitely needs to cost more, as it's pretty much the most powerful assassin attack that you can possibly have. And also, if you read the HotO change, it still costs 5 energy as long as you actually choose your targets carefully, it just creates another way to counter sins without having to bring specific counters.

Wyat Hawke · Oct 28, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

In the response to the Melandru derv:

Making it remove an condition if you use an attacking skill is wouldn't be the right way to address it (unless you want to kill it completely..) since you would have no chance removing the blind then, and why are you rolling a derv then? Warriors are better then to be honest, nobody would ever use Mel Dervishes (or Dervishes at all) in PvP.

...What about letting the Mel Derv loose energy when they would've been hit by a condition?

For 10...58 seconds, you have +100 Health, you are unaffected by Conditions, and your attacks deal earth damage. Whenever a condition hits you, you loose x...y energy or Avatar of Melandru ends. This Skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

Dervishes would have to manage their energy a bit more carefully then, and could get their avatar removed if the opposing team decides to focus all their conditions on him/her. The number of energy lost would have to be rather small though, since it would be an easy target for Bsurgers and SP sins if not. But I like the idea of letting them actually try to manage their own energy. At the moment it's all:

"hit AoM"
"Spam DW, DW, DW, DW!!!!111!"
"Wait, Wait, 5 energy! DW!!!"

BlackSephir · Oct 28, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

If you want to entirely kill the skill (aka kill the class). One of the biggest draws of Melandru is that it's an extremely effective counter to blind, and this change will basically make it so that mel's dervs are useless under blind, which means that you bring a warrior

So, what do you propose? You lose 1 condition when you use a skill/attack skill? Like Assassin's Remedy?
I don't care if you think Mel dervishes are ok or not, immunity to conditions is more retarded than hated shadow steps. Might as well make Dwayna immune to hexes.

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And why not? BoS definitely needs to cost more, as it's pretty much the most powerful assassin attack that you can possibly have

Yeah, dual-attack that requires 3 other recharging attack skills and 12 or 13 in Dagger Mastery to dish out this 'overpowered' 120dmg. It's great finisher and that's it.

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And also, if you read the HotO change, it still costs 5 energy as long as you actually choose your targets carefully, it just creates another way to counter sins without having to bring specific counters.

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Horns of the ox: 10 energy. 10..22 damage. If knock-down triggers, gain 1...4 energy.

So, if you'd read, it costs 10e no matter how you look at it. Might give you 4e back but that doesn't change the fact it would cost 10e.

Honestly, is attack skill that requires off-hand and causes conditionl kd that much?

TheOneMephisto · Oct 28, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

So, what do you propose? You lose 1 condition when you use a skill/attack skill? Like Assassin's Remedy?
I don't care if you think Mel dervishes are ok or not, immunity to conditions is more retarded than hated shadow steps. Might as well make Dwayna immune to hexes.

I think Mels dervishes are fine tbh. Wearying strike might still be a bit strong, but besides that they're decent options, but aren't necessarily overpowered. And making Dwayna's immune to hexes would probably be fine, because a dwayna's guy wouldn't have access to deepwound and would be screwed by bsurge. Melee without deepwound isn't worth it in any sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Yeah, dual-attack that requires 3 other recharging attack skills and 12 or 13 in Dagger Mastery to dish out this 'overpowered' 120dmg. It's great finisher and that's it.

Considering that every single good assassin combo has 4 attack skills and every single good dagger sin has 12-13 dagger mastery I fail to see how these are problems at all. It does almost as much damage as twisting fangs does if you count the deepwound damage at less energy and still allowing you to use impale afterwards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

So, if you'd read, it costs 10e no matter how you look at it. Might give you 4e back but that doesn't change the fact it would cost 10e.

Honestly, is attack skill that requires off-hand and causes conditionl kd that much?

Okay. But the point is that it still effectively costs 5 energy as long as you carefully choose your targets. It's not as if quick off-hands are hard to come by (cough black line, cough GPS) and effectively doesn't change anything as long as the sin chooses his targets carefully.

Ensign · Oct 28, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

The only Assassin skill that continues to demand a nerf is Black Lotus Strike. If you want to tweak Shadow Prison a bit as well, fine, but BLS is the problem.

Agree with everyone pointing out that Ineptitude really isn't anything special; it's solid enough in skirmish and at VoD, but it's certainly not what makes that character work.

I'm not sure how I feel about Hex Eater Vortex; I like how it is strong enough that, coupled with only a few other spot removals, an otherwise more balanced strategy can stand up to even serious hex strategies, which is good; on the flip side, it auto-wins games against any sort of casual hexing, which isn't exactly a good thing.

Div · Oct 28, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Changed BL, SoD, hex eater, auspicious incantation, black lotus strike.

Took out ineptitude, blades of steel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I don't like this change, I really don't think there's a way of changing this skill so it's worth bringing but not overpowered, it's just a niche skill cause it's useless if you don't play vs hexes (and even then it's just a target for humsig)

As suggested, it becomes more of a compression skill that can be taken when you suspect they will have at least some hexes. It becomes a strong remove/deny hex that provides some healing with better recharge (and being in the protection line, the 40/40 sets affect this as well).

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Also, Auspicious Incantation needs to die, this skill needs to die, and actually interesting inspiration skills like Inspired Hex and Drain Enchant need to be reverted to their old stats.

Agreed. Hard to figure out how to kill it though

InfernalSuffering · Oct 28, 2007, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Here's the things I would like to get changed:

Buffs:
Healing Signet – Decrease to 1 second activation time

Healing Party – Decrease Energy cost to 10. Increase recharge to 10 seconds.

Patient Spirit – Reduce recharge to 2 seconds. Increase healing to 15…79

Cry of Frustration – Decrease energy cost to 10. Increase recharge to 20 seconds.

Energy Tap – Decrease casting time to 2 seconds. Decrease recharge to 20 seconds.

Feigned Neutrality – Decrease recharge to 15 seconds. Remove armor bonus.

Nerfs:
Light of Deliverance – Change requirement to 70%

Angorodon’s Gaze – Change requirement of condition from self to target foe.

Ineptitude – Reduce duration to 0…2

Clumsiness - Reduce duration to 0…2

Auspicious Incantation – Set disable at 10 seconds constant.

Searing Flames – Increase casting time to 2 seconds

Black Lotus Strike – Reduce energy gain to 5…12

Ancestor’s Rage – Increase recharge to 15 seconds.

Splinter Weapon – Increase recharge to 15 seconds.

Avatar of Melandru - Decrease energy cost to 15. Remove health bonus.

Spear of Lightning – Increase recharge to 10 seconds.

Hex Eater Vortex - Remove 2 hexes from target ally. For each hex removed in this way, foes near that ally take 30...75 damage.
(not sure if that is the right way to fix HEV but just having it in your build shouldnt let you destory a team with single water ele)

Riotgear · Oct 28, 2007, 09:54 PM // 21:54

What about causing a 50% cast time increase while active so some well-timed harassment actually works?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The only Assassin skill that continues to demand a nerf is Black Lotus Strike.

BoS+Impale has essentially made Twisting Fangs obsolete and is what makes these ridiculous instagib builds possible while still carrying a KD.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 28, 2007, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Nerfing BLS is a good choice because the bar is unworkable as a single target insta-gib without BLS as energy management. You end up eating through your entire energy pool on the first few hits, and there's no way to get the string of 5 and 10e combos you currently need to finish a target. The bar would still have significant spike damage, but not enough to instantly kill a player pre-VoD, which seems like a reasonable goal.

twicky_kid · Oct 28, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Might as well make Dwayna immune to hexes.

Yes please!!!

Mel's being immune to blind, cripple, and DW with an HP boost is the only reason its used. Anything less.......take a war instead.

The other forms need to be buffed as an alternative to Mel's. Mel's doesn't need to be nerfed. If its not better than a war you wouldn't use it. Its a vicious cycle for frontline melee. Which ever one is stronger is what will be used.

Skuld · Oct 28, 2007, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Ancestor's Rage is worth 10 energy. Ele equivs are twice+ expensive and worse than this.

pah01 · Oct 29, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Cleaned up this thread so there's more actual balance discussion. Arenanet will never delete professions from the game. If you really want to post about that, go put it in Sardelac with the rest of the silly suggestions.

This thread is about actual balance discussion. If you have a change to propose, or would like to argue other people's changes, go ahead. But this isn't the place for suggestions that have no basis in reality.

Change Avatar of melandru functionality to work like when you hit with an attack skill you lose a condition. This makes blind a useful conditon against dervs.

Avatar of melandru is not interesting btw and immunity to conditions is retarded.

Joe

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 29, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

Buffs:
Feigned Neutrality – Decrease recharge to 15 seconds. Remove armor bonus.

How exactly is this a buff?

Vaga · Oct 29, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

I know this is a retarded idea, but why not just make Shadow Prison Cripple sintead of being a hex? It still acts as a shadow step and snare, but doesn't overpower it by covering expose or giving you a hex to start a combo. Like I said, bad idea I guess.

We don't want shadow steps that snare because it means your positioning is almost useless AND you can't kite them.

P-Leak is ridiculously overpowered.

neoflame · Oct 29, 2007, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

Ancestor's Rage is worth 10 energy. Ele equivs are twice+ expensive and worse than this.

Agreed. It was 10e before the later-reverted rit Exhaustion changes, and it saw play then.