Curse

Div · Oct 28, 2007, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Since the monthly’s over, and the other skill balance threads have disintegrated into random comments, I’d like to try and come up with a list of things that really need to be addressed.

If you have good suggestions, feel free to contribute and after looking over it, I'll update this list as needed. However, please keep the flames to a minimum and don't post off-topic trash in this thread, or Mokone will eat you alive :O

Reconnects: I’m sure they can come up with a better system for reconnects, even though chances are Anet for the most part has given up GW in preparation for GW2. Two monthlies in a row where there is an error out of the final match is ridiculous. People not loading into top 16 matchups and being unable to reconnect to that is stupid. The current reconnect system is decent, but improvements can definitely be made. After these two months, it almost seems like this current half-assed reconnect system is just something Anet put out to make enough people stop complaining (especially from the PvE side) so that they can get away with not doing any more work on it.

After looking through the HB battles, it seems like Murder Za barely had to work for his first place. An error by both his semifinals and finals opponent gave him a nice win by default. Matches should be replayed in the event that such untimely errors occur, or at the very least make the reconnect system better. If the winner of both GvG and 1v1 is going to be determined by people's connections and Anet's servers, why bother practicing? Just get a good connection, hope you get bad players/guilds to make the top 16, and rely on Anet's server instability to win.

Others: NPCs only do 200% damage to guild lord.

Skills: I’ll just propose a list of skills that we should see changed. I’ll try to keep this list short and simple (though it ended up being long anyways), because it seems like Anet can’t deal with large balance lists anymore. I really want to push for these monk changes, because they're probably the most thought out of all the stuff. If b-light and divert do get these changes, I actually wouldn't mind seeing some hexes very slightly buffed too.

Monk:

Blessed light: reduce to 5 energy. If a hex was removed, target ally is healed for an additional 6..30, and you lose 5 energy.

Divert hexes: 5 energy. remove 1..2 hexes from target ally and all nearby allies. ally gains 2..38 health per hex removed. lose 3 energy for each additional ally affected. 3/4 cast.

Word of healing: heal target other ally and up to 2 additional allies adjacent to that ally for 10..78 health. additional 10..78 health if below 50%. 6 second recharge.

Shield of deflection: 7 recharge. 1...6 duration.

Healing light: in addition, heal up to 2 additional allies adjacent to target for 10...58 health. 5 recharge.

Life sheath: 1/4 cast. 1...6 duration. negates 60..204 damage.

Glimmer of light: 1 recharge. 30..78 heal.

Ritualist:

Mending grip: 3/4 cast. 4 recharge.

Weapon of warding: 4...8 seconds.

Ancestor's rage: 28..100 damage. 12 recharge.

Creates more diversity in runners, hopefully...

Paragon:

Vicious attack: +3..15 damage. 10 recharge.

Spear of lightning: 10% AP.

Wild throw: +3..15 damage. 8 adrenaline.

Anthem of flame: 1..2 burning duration.

Mending refrain: 3 health regen at 13-16 motivation.

OR

1 energy every 3 ranks in leadership.

Paragons still do too much damage for how much party defense it provides, and makes the blockweb have very strong spiking ability.

Assassin:

Siphon speed: 7 recharge.

Shadow prison: 25 recharge. Moves 50% slower.

Dancing daggers: 2 cast. 10..34 damage.

Black lotus strike: 10..22 damage. gain 2..11 energy.

Horns of the ox: 10 energy. 10..22 damage. If knock-down triggers, gain 1...4 energy.

Impale: 20 recharge. 1 cast.

Deadly paradox: cast time to 25% less.

Deaths retreat: 15 recharge.

Golden skull strike: 3..6 second daze. 12 recharge.

Locusts fury: 5 energy. 1/4 cast. 10..34 duration.

Siphon is too strong in its current state. Will provide slight nerf to the SP-Lotus-Horns-Spider-Blades-Impale sins. Horns change means sins have to be smarter with knockdowns, and the defensive team can greatly hurt the combo's energy by smart positioning. Deadly arts sins are stupid. More sin elites being used is good. Sins were always too strong in skirmish situations, and with the new addition of ineptitude mesmers or ride the lightning eles at the stand, teams are able to win at VoD as well.

Mesmer:

Clumsiness: 1..3 second duration. 10..82 damage.

Auspicious incantation: 2 cast. maximum 35 energy.

Hex eater vortex: 10 recharge. for each remaining hex, deal 15..61 damage to nearby foes and remove ench (max 120).

Sum of all fears: 25% slower.

Imagined burden: 6..18 duration. 20 recharge.

Crippling anguish: 7..16 duration. 15 recharge.

Insane melee screwover hexes have durations that are way too long. Very slightly upped damage and lowered duration to punish bad warriors that frenzy through it but make it so you can wait it out.

Necromancer:

Angorodon’s gaze: 10 energy return.

Mark of subversion: 5 second duration. 10..58 life steal. 25 recharge.

Barbs: 12 recharge.

Seamus Finn · Oct 28, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Clumsiness: 10..70 damage. 5 recharge.

I think this cange is a little off base. The problem with Clumsiness and Ineptitude is the duration of the hex. Neither should exceed 3 seconds. If you really want to make these hexes that require timing you should at least give good warriors the option of pulling away from an attack and allowing the hex to wear off. The current durations(I believe 9 or 10 seconds) exceeds the recharge of clumsiness and gets way too close on Ineptitude.

Greedy Gus · Oct 28, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I think this cange is a little off base. The problem with Clumsiness and Ineptitude is the duration of the hex.

Bingo, these could reward player skill if they have a short enough duration (knowing it's coming in and stop attacking). Make it similar to the way diversion plays against casters, though the duration has to be shorter because attack rate is way greater than general casting rates. Right now even if you know it's coming or can cancel attacking by reaction, you still want to just go ahead and fight through it 9/10 times because it lasts too long and hex removal isn't balanced around spammy on/off hexes.

In any case, clumsy/inept can be pushed in a few different directions to reward player skill (of either the mes casting it or the target physical, or both), and can be tweaked further to keep their power (if izzy wants them to see keep seeing more play). ATM the way it plays out is pretty much identical for a top 10 game and a rank 1000 game, which tends to not be the kind of thing you want to buff to the point where it sees play in so many matches.

Div · Oct 28, 2007, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Yeah I wasn't thinking very much once I got done with the sin killing. I'll make some changes to reflect that.

Sab · Oct 28, 2007, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Mostly TA stuff, but worth mentioning.

Warmonger's Weapon - Reduce duration
Deadly Paradox - Remove 33% casting time bonus
Clumsiness/Ineptitude - Reduce duration

tricolorsp · Oct 28, 2007, 04:42 AM // 04:42

lower the dervishes damage....
when 1 dervish can kill 3 guys at vod using 2 skills something needs to be wrong

Kaida the Heartless · Oct 28, 2007, 05:04 AM // 05:04

I kinda like the monk changes.

Ensign · Oct 28, 2007, 05:43 AM // 05:43

The really significant change from last month was the loss of SoD; that change is what let the standard Shadow Prison 'sins back into GvG without horribly gimping those builds 8v8. Now they can collapse effectively, letting them be the problem template in GvG they've been everywhere else in the game. I'll take a contrary view and say that Siphon Speed is the part of the bar that should be encouraged, I love its ability for creating mismatches and the game really needs more of that.

I'm a fan of the Ineptitude / Clumsiness Mesmers that have popped up. While Clumsiness itself is probably a bit too strong, I like just how much different that template feels, it performs very well in skirmish, is great for pushing into NPCs, maximizing collapses with Imagined Burden, and is solid at VoD. It's not a template I'd like to see pushed out of the metagame.

I'm not all that worried about Paragons in their current form. DF did a really good job of neutralizing such static defense by pushing people around this weekend and that's encouraging. As long as the 'gons aren't neutralizing collapses they aren't a huge problem as they're so inflexible themselves.

Ancestor's Rage continues to be retarded.

The added NPCs on every map have increased the significance of VoD quite a bit on many maps; I'm still not entirely sure what I think about that.

Riotgear · Oct 28, 2007, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Any balance update suggestion without a Melandru nerf is totally unacceptable.

tricolorsp · Oct 28, 2007, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'm not all that worried about Paragons in their current form. DF did a really good job of neutralizing such static defense by pushing people around this weekend and that's encouraging.

did a good job cause shields up is another retarded skill and they had 2 copies of it....paragons and dervishes needs to be turned down

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Ancestor's Rage continues to be retarded.

qft

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The added NPCs on every map have increased the significance of VoD quite a bit on many maps

300%damage on lord is way too much....archers hit for 148damage...

TheLichMonky · Oct 28, 2007, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Shield of deflection: 7 recharge. 1...7 duration.

With 14 prot SoD will last 10 seconds with its 10 second recharge... makes no sense to mess with it

Vaga · Oct 28, 2007, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Without giving it too much though, in addition to paragons getting a major tone down on their damage I'd like to see...

- Something done about the auspicious incantation + conjure nightmare combination that gives a lot of bars huge energy management

- Shadow Prison's snare removed

- Clumsiness + ineptitude duration both at 1..3

- Hex eater vortex changed so it doesn't punish you so hard for running a light amount of hexes (water ele) but punishes you for running mass hexes

- Assassin lotus attacks give less energy back

- Blades of steel + damage for each enchantment on target foe and 10e

- Avatar of melandru duration toned down

- Glyph lesser 5 less energy at 0 spec

- Aegis 15 energy

- P leak 20r

- Blackout 3...6 seconds

- Gale 3 second kd

- Shields up 60r

- Drain enchant reverted back to how it was in proph

- Rend touch 15r

I liked most of divine's monk proposals.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 28, 2007, 08:12 AM // 08:12

SP sins, as usual, could use a serious hit. And, as usual, they will not get one.

A nerf to Avatar of Melandru doesn't make much sense. Melandru is easily one of the most interesting and player-intensive skills on that character's bar, because of the way it allows you to freely push around the map while it's up. You can go around the battlefield in relative safety, push onto a split, imbue people, and still create a significant flagstand threat. It's only while the Melandru form is down that that guy becomes an uninteresting character without a lot of tactical options. I can see increasing Wearying's recharge to slow the Deep Wound spam, but nerfing Melandru itself pushes that character towards less interesting play.

Paragons seem fine to me currently. Skillfully applied disruption still breaks a team much faster than autoattack DPS, which is about where the game should be.

A nerf to the duration of Ineptitude/Clumsiness feels like a good change, though be wary of increasing their damage to compensate. Those skills already blow a frontline up very effectively at VoD. I agree with Ensign that the template is good for the game, but shorter durations on the hexes would allow a team to combat it more effectively. Right now, there's very little your team can do about that guy, because of how difficult he is for a midline to disrupt. Short casts, fast recharges, and few real energy problems. You end up just popping the hexes most of the time and trying to get attack skills through, which doesn't lend itself to particularly interesting play.

For the most part, I would say that the game is pretty well balanced right now. A few more options among monk elites would be a decent choice, though you have to be careful that those don't get too Build Wars-ish. I'd much rather see robust monk elites that you use in every match, rather than ultra-specific monk elites that you take when you think you'll be facing a particular build.

Sinful Doom · Oct 28, 2007, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Any balance update suggestion without a Melandru nerf is totally unacceptable.

Dont forget about Recall, if only one skill gets nuked I still choose this one.

Vaga · Oct 28, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

A nerf to Avatar of Melandru doesn't make much sense. Melandru is easily one of the most interesting and player-intensive skills on that character's bar, because of the way it allows you to freely push around the map while it's up. You can go around the battlefield in relative safety, push onto a split, imbue people, and still create a significant flagstand threat. It's only while the Melandru form is down that that guy becomes an uninteresting character without a lot of tactical options. I can see increasing Wearying's recharge to slow the Deep Wound spam, but nerfing Melandru itself pushes that character towards less interesting play.

All you've said is that good players can take advantage of Melandru's more than bad players... that doesn't mean it isn't overpowered. You can do all that (ok you can't imbue people) on a warrior and it's much more skill intensive because you aren't in god mode.

If you think paragons are fine you're an idiot...maybe you don't notice there dps because of all the passive defense you've put in your build so you don't wipe to paragons.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 28, 2007, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

So its overpowered, but the better you are the more overpowered it is? good logic for not nerfing it. You can do all that (ok you can't imbue people) on a warrior and it's much more skill intensive because you aren't in god mode.

Overpowered templates tend to be overrepresented in tournaments. In tournament play, Melandru primarily sees use in caster spike builds as a means to apply a Deep Wound, or in some split builds as a means to create stand pressure with a single physical. Warriors remain considerably more popular, especially among the teams that win, and top-level matches are not dominated by dervishes.

If anything on that bar needs a hit, it is Wearying Strike (again.) Melandru actually adds some interesting gameplay and tactical options to the bar. Wearying Strike, meanwhile, promotes uninteresting spikey gameplay.

Riotgear · Oct 28, 2007, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinful Doom

Dont forget about Recall, if only one skill gets nuked I still choose this one.

Recall, Shadow Prison, and Deadly Paradox need to die, all three suck the fun out of any format they are viable in. Maybe Rampage as One too.

Quote:

Melandru is easily one of the most interesting and player-intensive skills on that character's bar, because of the way it allows you to freely push around the map while it's up.

Pressing IDDQD is one of the most player-intensive ways to play Doom because of the way it lets me freely push through hell while it's up.

Mel's dervishes aren't very "interesting" when Mel's is down because their DW options suck. I wouldn't say they're very "interesting" even while it's up, playing Mel's is extremely one-dimensional compared to playing any form of warrior, both from the lack of variety in what you actually do and the lack of considerations that need to be made to do it.

Quote:

Melandru primarily sees use in caster spike builds as a means to apply a Deep Wound, or in some split builds as a means to create stand pressure with a single physical.

I've seen Melandru taken in place of a warrior in just about every build configuration that can take a warrior.

Shuuda · Oct 28, 2007, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiizu

Delete necros, sins, paras, rits, and dervs.

Don't forgot Mesmers, we don't need any of them. Warriors, Eles and monks are all we need. [/sarcasim] But really, deleting proffessions would not fix the game, it's just a half arsed attempt.

Some nice changes, Partically to the monk elites, but I do wish assassins would of have been given a bit more.

Jaen · Oct 28, 2007, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Pressing IDDQD is one of the most player-intensive ways to play Doom because of the way it lets me freely push through hell while it's up.

Because positioning is so important in Doom?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Mel's dervishes aren't very "interesting" when Mel's is down because their DW options suck. I wouldn't say they're very "interesting" even while it's up, playing Mel's is extremely one-dimensional compared to playing any form of warrior, both from the lack of variety in what you actually do and the lack of considerations that need to be made to do it.

Thats one way to look at it. Another is to see the dervish as a splittable frontliner that doesn't have a gimped bar. One that peforms equally well at the stand and on splits allowing teams more tactical flexibility.

Although I admit I think dervs blow up NPCs too fast at VoD in their current state.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIOTGEAR

I've seen Melandru taken in place of a warrior in just about every build configuration that can take a warrior.

I'm not so sure this is a bad thing. I think having a bit of variation on the frontline is good, provided it's balanced, to allow for teams to tailor their frontline to the focus of the build they're running.

It's kinda like what the rit was supposed to do for the backline, except they kinda succeeded this time(without the broken-ness that was ritual lord).

Div · Oct 28, 2007, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Took some more stuff into consideration and edited main post.

Also, my new proposal to Horns:
10 energy. 10..22 damage. If knock-down triggers, gain 1...4 energy.

It might be an interesting idea to promote better positioning on the defender side and for the sin to not randomly jump into something and hope for a kill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLichMonky

With 14 prot SoD will last 10 seconds with its 10 second recharge... makes no sense to mess with it

Just because the duration matches the recharge doesn't mean nothing's been changed. Simply taken, if a hex lasts 30 seconds with 30 second recharge, it is different from a hex lasting 5 seconds with a 5 second recharge. A shorter recharge on SoD would mean the ability to prot more targets in a certain timeframe, and would require better e-management skills to not spam it on recharge.