Curse

Razz L Dazzle · Oct 29, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

ZB is much better than glimmer, ZB can be used on a 40/40 , you can use terrian to hide, use distance from the ranger etc all measures to avoid interrupts.. It's heal is much more efficient and can allow lower than 50 more often as less damage in this situation. ZB can work well in more situations. Your particular glimmer guy relies on return as his only reliable way to escape as he's a very weak character. Return, in general, is very gimmicky in the sin and warrior based splits.

Basic strat is to draw all the conditions until the rest of your team is out of ranger's range and you are the primary target then use return to get out of your bad position, then mend touch and run away. Shadow stepping gimmicks doesn't make these splits at all skillful to use, sorry.

Seamus Finn · Oct 29, 2007, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz L Dazzle

Shadow stepping gimmicks doesn't make these splits at all skillful to use, sorry.

I didn't realize I was arguing the opposite.

Vaga · Oct 29, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I didn't realize I was arguing the opposite.

You were arguing your build takes more skill to play than euro balanced, he was pointing out an unskillful aspect to your build.

Whilst euro balanced probably isn't the most skillful build to ever grace guild wars it easily takes more skill than what you run, and one of the reasons why euro balanced has so much defense is because it's one of the only ways for a 'balanced' build to deal with splits like yours so you really shouldn't complain about that.

Razz L Dazzle · Oct 29, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I didn't realize I was arguing the opposite.

Didn't say you were. I'm just commenting on the reason for your split's success is dependent on return, a shadow step gimmick, not skillful play. Take return off your glimmer guy and tell me how good glimmer is then. I'm not arguing that block-ways are more skillful than shadow-stepping splits, both are flawed.

Having a dedicated healing rit, monk or ele on the split is fine in the current gvg landscape. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill to run this successfully. But when a team's strategy is reliant on shadow stepping out of trouble, not picking on solely RIP and BG, but teams in general i think it allows bad postioning and play to get by because they can teleport out of trouble.

Seamus Finn · Oct 30, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz L Dazzle

Didn't say you were. I'm just commenting on the reason for your split's success is dependent on return, a shadow step gimmick, not skillful play. Take return off your glimmer guy and tell me how good glimmer is then. I'm not arguing that block-ways are more skillful than shadow-stepping splits, both are flawed.

Having a dedicated healing rit, monk or ele on the split is fine in the current gvg landscape. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill to run this successfully. But when a team's strategy is reliant on shadow stepping out of trouble, not picking on solely RIP and BG, but teams in general i think it allows bad postioning and play to get by because they can teleport out of trouble.

This is a pretty big generalization on shadow stepping. In fairness, Return is no where near as degenerate as recall. And one ould argue that return is a skill that makes one more aware of positioning since you have to at least keep track of your teammates positioning in order ot get some use out of it. Furthermore, there's more than a fine line between using return when you screw up to go from screwed to ok and using it to foul up your opponent's positioning. The skill can work from both angles and has more depth than something like recall.

P.S. I never said glimmer was good. I said it is sufficient for the narrow purpose the monk needs to fufill in a specific build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

You were arguing your build takes more skill to play than euro balanced,

Actually I wasn't. He seemed to pick up on this. You didn't. But it makes your following statements less surprising.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Whilst euro balanced probably isn't the most skillful build to ever grace guild wars it easily takes more skill than what you run, and one of the reasons why euro balanced has so much defense is because it's one of the only ways for a 'balanced' build to deal with splits like yours so you really shouldn't complain about that.

I wasn't complaining about anything. You are quite wrong, by the way. Using a monk runner offensively in your build doesn't really make you a one trick pony. Neither does slotting every defensive skill you can think of. More often than not, players will play the builds as such. 3 2 1 defense ball is a proven build, even in its most rigid use, which is the way people run it and why they run it. It really doesn't require more skill than 5-3 splits without sins, though. It's just more popular.

This all started because I wondered why people had such dislike for a guild that ran something not found in the meta and to be honest a response that can be generalized to: "they run a split build, can't fight 8v8(how surprising), and don't have to make good collapses to win" just reads sour grapes to me on the part of people who feel(and look on obs mode) pretty dumb when they lose to a split build that they claim doesn't even have any dynamic to it and no shadow prison sins to boot.

Vaga · Oct 30, 2007, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

An adaptable balanced build requires more skill than a one dimensional 'gimmick'..

I heard 3 2 1 spiking with lots of defense is an adaptable build. By this, I mean if the other team tries anything funny like splitting you chain flags with warriors and wait till VoD where you 3 2 1 spike them... ok

Mitch picked up on you inferring that your build takes more skill to play than the euro balanced build, I assumed Razz was too when he was pointing out that one of your key guys relies on a broken game mechanic for their bar to work. Btw even though there's more degenerate stuff than return it doesn't change the fact that it's a shadow step that basically removes the need for good positioning and pre-kiting.

It also sounds a lot like you're complaining about other team's tactics they use in order to combat the gimmicky split builds when you talk about chain running flags.

The reason you're running the 5/3 split is to get a build advantage, running an extra monk makes you extremely focused on splitting opposed to if you were running a balanced build where you might send a war + ranger off to split but can still fight 8v8 well. With what you currently run you can't really move between split/spike/pressure it basically only works split. Yes it takes more skill than dual assassin split but what doesn't?

The defense ball is more or less run because you need a lot of defense if you want to be able to stand up to teams 8v8 and split. If you didn't have some redundancy you wouldn't be able to afford to split some melee defense back to deal with 2 warriors in your base and still hold up to the 1+ physical at the flagstand, nor would you be able to deal with the 8v8 builds that can quite easily shut down parts of your defense.

So since a guild can run a dedicated split and have quite a large build advantage over a guild running a balanced build, guilds who only run these dedicated splits aren't going to be held in as high regard as a guild who primarily runs balanced which should basically answer your original question as to why battle gods are considered a joke.

edit: btw i don't have a problem with guilds running splits like yours I just wish the map rotation was random for AT's so dedicated splits couldn't build so much for the map.

Seamus Finn · Oct 30, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Mitch picked up on you inferring that your build takes more skill to play than the euro balanced build.

"More" is what mitch inferred. I was more pointing out that the current "balanced" is not actually balanced. It basically has one way of playing: straight up and with a lot of spikes. It doesn't split too effectively because it can't keep stand threat and threaten much on a split.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

It also sounds a lot like you're complaining about other team's tactics they use in order to combat the gimmicky split builds when you talk about chain running flags..

No, I was trying to show how the popular build of the day isn't versatile. The tactic I described is used to try and get you to play their game instead of a split game. I am not calling it dirty, just one dimensional. When teams do this is basically just shows they have one way to beat you and will wait 18 minutes in order to play that game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

edit: btw i don't have a problem with guilds running splits like yours I just wish the map rotation was random for AT's so dedicated splits couldn't build so much for the map.

Agreed about the AT, I would like to have random maps, but not just to combat splits.

Last Point: The Battle Gods build is not a build that RIP runs and the one build we run that is most like Battle Gods does not get much play in the guild.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 30, 2007, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

3 2 1 defense ball is a proven build, even in its most rigid use, which is the way people run it and why they run it. It really doesn't require more skill than 5-3 splits without sins, though. It's just more popular.

It does require more skill, because it's adaptable, while the 5/3 split RIP and BG run just splits, runs around and resplits, in that aspect you can even call sin splits more skill intensive cause they at least make an attempt to collapse.

Quote:

This all started because I wondered why people had such dislike for a guild that ran something not found in the meta and to be honest a response that can be generalized to: "they run a split build, can't fight 8v8(how surprising), and don't have to make good collapses to win" just reads sour grapes to me on the part of people who feel(and look on obs mode) pretty dumb when they lose to a split build that they claim doesn't even have any dynamic to it and no shadow prison sins to boot.

I have no problem when guilds run a 'non-meta' build, however when a guild is only capable of running 1 type of build which also happens to be a pretty one dimensional build (read: gimmick), I don't think too highly of them.

Seamus Finn · Oct 30, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

It does require more skill, because it's adaptable, while the 5/3 split RIP and BG run just splits, runs around and resplits, in that aspect you can even call sin splits more skill intensive cause they at least make an attempt to collapse.

Wow. So you assume a the capabilities of a build you don't run based on how you see a guild run it, and then overlook how a build you do run is almost always run and look past that to see its full "adaptability." Sorry, 5/3 splits, including the one RIP runs can collapse(and we do so when it seems like fun) and 3 2 1 can be as adaptable as it wants but people run it one way 99% of the time.

Div · Oct 30, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

As boring as BG's build may be, they're one of the few that truly understands offensive split tactics and collapses. The point of splits is to take advantage of mismatches, so of course there will be a lot of running. The reason why sin splits can collapse so easy is because it takes no adrenaline buildup when back at the team. All you do is run around, unleash 1234567, and run around some more. If you think pressing 1234567 while getting close to a target is an example of skill and collapsing, you're greatly mistaken.

And I can't see how you're saying their build (and RIP's) is one dimensional and gimmick. By far, the new sin splits are more gimmicky.

Darksbane · Oct 30, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

As boring as BG's build may be, they're one of the few that truly understands offensive split tactics and collapses.

that is one of the dumbest things i've ever heard

Div · Oct 30, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksbane

that is one of the dumbest things i've ever heard

And your comment is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard too, because it provides no information and shows that all you can do is attack someone.

Granted, BG is not a top guild by any means, but the fact they continue running a non-sin split build through many different metas (and having relative success, either due to lack of opposition or their knowledge of splits) is pretty amazing.

I don't care if you're in a good guild or how knowledgeable you are about the game and euro guilds. If you're not going to post useful comments, then get out of this thread.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 30, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

As boring as BG's build may be, they're one of the few that truly understands offensive split tactics and collapses. The point of splits is to take advantage of mismatches, so of course there will be a lot of running. The reason why sin splits can collapse so easy is because it takes no adrenaline buildup when back at the team. All you do is run around, unleash 1234567, and run around some more. If you think pressing 1234567 while getting close to a target is an example of skill and collapsing, you're greatly mistaken.

And I can't see how you're saying their build (and RIP's) is one dimensional and gimmick. By far, the new sin splits are more gimmicky.

BG never actually collapses though, they just fall out of the base, run around for a bit, and resplit.

And I was obviously sarcastic about the sins ~_~

Then again, given your background I'm sure you'll defend dedicated split builds..

Div · Oct 30, 2007, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

BG never actually collapses though, they just fall out of the base, run around for a bit, and resplit.

And I was obviously sarcastic about the sins ~_~

Then again, given your background I'm sure you'll defend dedicated split builds..

Of the few times I've watched BG, they've collapsed on occasion. Maybe the times I watched them were the only times they collapsed, but that's what I'm seeing. My perception may be inaccurate simply because I haven't had to play against BG every day since I'm not playing at euro times. I have nothing against dedicated split or non-dedicated splits, and played a fair share of both. At least in RIP's case, I've seen them run 8v8 fairly strongly with their build, and just has the additional ability to split more strongly than typical balance if needed.

And seriously, do all you guys like personal attacks and cheap shots over saying constructive things?

Razz L Dazzle · Oct 30, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

On a competitive level, RIP and Battle Gods cannot go head to head 8v8 and beat good teams, in my experience. If they can since last i played them, hats off i suppose, but them splitting around the map seemed to be their most successful strategy verse any competitive team. Guilds get more respect when they are able to successfully split, play 8v8 and show the ability to actively change tactics to expose the enemy's weakness.

Some including myself, haven't seen Battle Gods really do much other than 5/3 split their way around the map. If they start winning 8v8 then i'd give them some additional respect. I'm sure they'll continue to play what they enjoy and do well. No need to go out and impress the nay-sayers, who cares anyway.

moko · Oct 30, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

ups you all just got offtopic and predictions don't matter anymore.