Curse

Lyssas · Oct 01, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

First off, I'll admit I haven't read through the whole thread so if this concern has been brought up before I apologize for that, if not, I feel it's important that it is brought up.

The issue is that the update completely destroys RA while promoting TA. I don't mind promoting TA but when just having half an hour to spend, RA is a more valid option, but after the update the progression of the Gladiator title is too slow to be worth it at all, and this is why:

Previously you would get a glad point for a streak of 10 wins, each point was multiplied with 6 to compensate for the change, from this I state that each 'new' glad point has a value 6 times the old ones. So to gain as many points as you did by getting 1 streak of 10 wins prior the update you would now have to gain 6 points:

6 points in todays system that is 15 wins in a row 1+2+3=6
Or 6 rows of 5 wins 1*6=6
Now of course this is to promote for newer players to have a chance to gain the title as well. But the real issue is that in RA you will never gain more than 3 points per run (1+2) which equals 10 wins in a row, to reach 6 points you'll have to do this twice, which will consume twice as much time as before, and the progress was slow enough as it was.

Now of course you'll say that a good team could gain 1+2+3+4x but in RA under the new cercumstances that is not the case.
After the update leaving is not a serious problem any more, I'll congrat you on that and I really apreciate that part of the update. Previously it was possible (at least for me as a experienced PvP player) to pull a somewhat bad team to a streak of 10, but now as leaving isn't a problem there are more teams around which are 'worse' so to say, previously people left if the team had no monk etc, so now it is almost easy to get a streak of 10 with just any team. I have to say that this is good as well, and brings much more variation into the game, but it is also the main issue.

When a RA team passes 10 wins they are transfered to the team arenas, and after the update pretty much any crap team will be able to make a streak of 10, which means that a sub par RA team will suddenly face tacticaly formed and comunicating TA teams, now getting a 5 win streakagainst those just won't happen. Possibly if you by a miracle got a perfect RA team, which as of the nonleaving idea will happen once a year at best.

Now there are several ways to solve this I'm sure, the easiest, as far as I'm concerned, would be to just sepparate RA and TA completely, allow a team to gain as many wins as they can in RA without being moved to TA, sure this could mean that some lucky team can farm RA for a while but this is definately better than having all RA players spend twice the time to get anywhere.

Sincerely

Elrodien · Oct 01, 2007, 11:26 AM // 11:26

I think the new update was a success. The typical griefing play you used to find there is now gone and people are trying their best to win games even with the most unlikely of set-ups. I think the 5 wins to get a glad point in RA is a good thing too as it gives some of these unlikely set-ups a chance to achieve something.

I also believe that the new set up will encourage more people to play in TA. This can only be a good thing as that was always the idea wasn't it ? PvE -> RA -> TA -> HA -> GvG?

Nice job. Now fix the rest of it

Vazze · Oct 01, 2007, 02:50 PM // 14:50

@Lyssas. The new system increased your rank, and as you know progression is slower at higher tiers of any rank. In addition to that, the higher tiers of the rank were opened up only for TA players to promote the organized play style and to reward the higher competition there. This means that progress in RA has to be increasingly slower than in TA at higher tiers.

@Elrodien. I doubt TA is to see more ppl in the near future. The only common things in RA and TA are that they are both 4men format and they share the title. That's it. TA is organized play and in this sense it is more akin to HA and GvG. RA is a solo play arena, similar to AB and to HB. The order you wrote is indeed a kind of path for new players, but since the game has been out for two years (the expansion is not even targeted at new players) it is rather meaningless, as there are very few new players. Probably the opposite is true: ppl who play RA will not want to see the same arenas when they have the time/company to play organized format.

Maybe it is my imagination, but things are getting back to normal in RA. Hardly any griefer, much less wammo.

FoxBat · Oct 01, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

I was surprised how much the character of RA has changed with such a minor adjustment. As in, I can actually enjoy playing instead of dumping teams till finding a monk, only to fail 6 matches in anyway. The level of competition has definitely dropped as some have complained, but that makes the arena more relaxed and casual like AB, and there's more room now to try wacky builds. Finally I can direct noobs to the place knowing their first taste of PvP won't be completely horrible. I'm sure this annoys some of the better players but RA needs to be the first-rung intro to PvP, and its more important Anet try to attract newer PvPers given their general inability to hold onto the veterans.

Also pleased that the title solution rewards TA over RA. Hopefully more and more PUGs and guild teams will form there, resulting in a far fairer "competitive" environment than the old RA.

Lord Natural · Oct 01, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I was surprised how much the character of RA has changed with such a minor adjustment. As in, I can actually enjoy playing instead of dumping teams till finding a monk, only to fail 6 matches in anyway. The level of competition has definitely dropped as some have complained, but that makes the arena more relaxed and casual like AB, and there's more room now to try wacky builds. Finally I can direct noobs to the place knowing their first taste of PvP won't be completely horrible. I'm sure this annoys some of the better players but RA needs to be the first-rung intro to PvP, and its more important Anet try to attract newer PvPers given their general inability to hold onto the veterans.

This is exactly what irks me the most, because in some respects you are dead on. They did this with HA a while back, and now RA: RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing with the system in an attempt to please the noobs while not caring if they piss off the people who actually play the arena. It's all about the numbers with anet, and while I understand it, I don't have to like it. The logic is, given that you can't please everyone, it's ok to piss off 25 players, if you please 75. Why should anet care if they have essentially killed the arena for that 25% (just an abstract number), if 75% of the noob population are pleased? That's a win for anet, if it was previously 25% happy, 75% displeased. They are probably laughing their ass off reading people QQ'ing about it.

On a personal level, my pity for those 'new to pvp' ended long ago. The game's what? 2.5 years old? Even if for some reason pve kept you satisfied for 2.5 years and you are only now getting the pvp bug, the game has been out long enough such that there's really no excuse to strut into RA with your dolyak sig and complain that too many 'good' players are making it difficult on you. You learn in RA by losing, at least that's how I did. Get beat, analyze why, adapt, repeat. If that's not enough, obs mode, while boring now, at least demonstrates game mechanics.

makosi · Oct 01, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Random Arenas is now Heal Wars.

3 Monks [or a mixture of monks and rits] and an SP sin means you can't lose because an SP sin will manage to kill something by himself eventually in the 8 given timeframe and it's really hard to take down a SoR bonder and 2 ZB monks.

glountz · Oct 01, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

On a personal level, my pity for those 'new to pvp' ended long ago. The game's what? 2.5 years old? Even if for some reason pve kept you satisfied for 2.5 years and you are only now getting the pvp bug, the game has been out long enough such that there's really no excuse to strut into RA with your dolyak sig and complain that too many 'good' players are making it difficult on you. You learn in RA by losing, at least that's how I did. Get beat, analyze why, adapt, repeat. If that's not enough, obs mode, while boring now, at least demonstrates game mechanics.

I don' understand why you're sticking to RA after 2 years of PVP.
I prefer a noob friendly RA, considering that I have the ability to go in TA easily with guildies if i want something serious, or GvG and HA if we are enough people.

Lord Natural · Oct 01, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I don' understand why you're sticking to RA after 2 years of PVP.
I prefer a noob friendly RA, considering that I have the ability to go in TA easily with guildies if i want something serious, or GvG and HA if we are enough people.

It's not as though I'm RA exclusive or something, I just happen to enjoy it occassionally. It's the only pvp you can just jump in and not have to fuss about vent and organization. I'm certainly not alone in this, since I frequently play or see people playing whom I recognize as experienced pvpers. If I log on to GW an hour before class or work or whatever, shouldn't I have the option of playing quick pvp as much as the next person?

Despozblehero · Oct 01, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

It's the only pvp you can just jump in and not have to fuss about vent and organization.

I hear this a lot. Yes you can jump right in, but it comes with a drawback, and you gotta deal with it. If you have a Guild and 3 other people who are as into glad points as you are its just as fast and easy to jump right in TA (if not overall faster and easier). My Guildies and I are organized enough to group up and be ready for HA/GvG in less than 5 mins if we wanted, and that doesnt take much.

Lord Natural · Oct 01, 2007, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despozblehero

I hear this a lot. Yes you can jump right in, but it comes with a drawback, and you gotta deal with it. If you have a Guild and 3 other people who are as into glad points as you are its just as fast and easy to jump right in TA (if not overall faster and easier). My Guildies and I are organized enough to group up and be ready for HA/GvG in less than 5 mins if we wanted, and that doesnt take much.

I don't really understand your point or how it applies to RA. It's great that your guildies are online 24/7 and ready to group with you in 5 mins, but for the other 99.9% of GW players, this probably isn't the case. I can go find a thread about The Deep being constantly empty and say: No it isn't, my 11 guildies and I go in and start our runs immediately. But it wouldn't really apply to the topic. My post was a reply to another one which suggested that experienced players have no place in RA, ever. This isn't the case.

The issue here is RA changes sucking and driving away many of those who played it.

Cherng Butter · Oct 01, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Random Arenas is now Heal Wars.

3 Monks [or a mixture of monks and rits] and an SP sin means you can't lose because an SP sin will manage to kill something by himself eventually in the 8 given timeframe and it's really hard to take down a SoR bonder and 2 ZB monks.

Yet any balanced team could go just as far in a quarter the time...why would you want to waste your time hitting the time limit on every match? Lol...

Shmanka · Oct 02, 2007, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Maybe this will teach people to bring snares and ench removal in RA.

Should I need to bring Expunge Enchantments just because Shadow Form is everywhere?

Not in my opinion.

Snares you commonly see, that I do not think is the problem. Cripshot/CripSlash is decently played from my experience and that is as effective as it needs to be.

Yet, these invinci builds warp a metagame, and well abuses everyones time. I don't think the argument needs to go much further then that.

Lyssas · Oct 02, 2007, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Lord Natural* I completely go along with your argument. Personaly I'm something of a retired GW player, I have a satisfying rank in both the Hero Title and the Champion title, but I've ended up with too little time to do any of the more organized stuff. And joining some imo crap guild, just to have someone to form quickly with, is not in question for me as I just get frustrated having so much more experience than these people, joining a good guild on the other hand is not gonna happen because I am not active enough and will not really fill a place in such a guild either currently. So what I do is just mess about in RA and get some progress on the title at the same time. The idea of promoting TA so much over RA forces me up through the levels of PvP again, which I havent got time to, now RA used to be a retirement home as well as noob friendly, now it's only noob friendly.

wuzzman · Oct 02, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

I don't seea whole lot of people playing TA because AB is still a whole lot easier, bring any build you want>>>>>running a build that actually works (according to the noob brain). I can see a mass exodus from AB and RA if like a ton of players get banned. I've been reported a couple of times and haven't got bannned so...

Despozblehero · Oct 02, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

I don't really understand your point or how it applies to RA.

The point was if you go to RA youre gonna get noobs who have no skill, terrible bars, and very little idea of tactics... If you have skill, a good bar, and know tactics you have to deal with the fact that your team doesnt, RA has been like that since the beginning. Leaving your group isnt dealing with it... If you want a quick match without organization, thats exactly what you should expect... an unorganized quickly formed group... who in all likelyhood doesnt have a clue what theyre really doing...
I didnt actually quote your name the 1st time cause i didnt want to seem like i was flaming you, it was just the underlying idea of a lot of arguments ive read.

Yichi · Oct 02, 2007, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherng Butter

Yet any balanced team could go just as far in a quarter the time...why would you want to waste your time hitting the time limit on every match? Lol...

Because this is the new form of griefing. Since they can't leave or cant leech their glad point, they will force the match to go the entire duration just to piss people off.

African War Lord · Oct 02, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

For Legendary Gladiator (12) you need 37 years winning 3 points per day (10 consecutive)
37 years? lol, and I don't play all days! I will be dead by natural causes before max the title.

37 years to max the glad title and we get no emote? come on lol..

Sun Fired Blank · Oct 02, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Well, stick a fork in it, PvP is done. Can I get a check? Oh, wait, that's right. You already have my check. Ha ha ha. Oh....

On a more serious note, RA is now a very unpleasant environment. More frustrating than even TA. I play RA because I want a quick, unpredictable match that isn't going to be Kerthumpyourface (R/W, R/W, R/W, Mo/X), kersmitebondyour face (A/W or D/X, A/W or D/X, smite-bonder, Mo/X), kersmitesinyour face (A/Mo, A/Mo, A/Mo, Mo/X). Random is not a problem.

Here's a quick list of problem situations:

1) You draw a team of Mo/A, Mo/A, yourself (Mo/E), Me/Mo on a priest map. They draw two healers and two frontliners. The N/E and one Mo/A will not resign. When you ask them to resign, they start the fight instead. When you refuse to heal and ask them to resign again, the Mo/A reports you.
Problem #1: if you draw a setup that is truly unviable, you have to play it out or take the dishonor hit, because you won't be able to convince your team to do the right thing, and they'll probably report you if you point it out.
2) You draw a team of W/E, A/W, W/Mo, W/Mo. The W/E resigns, and when prompted to play, uses nothing but frenzy. You report him. He reports you.
Problem #2: if someone refuses to play because they think your team setup is unviable, you won't be able to convince your team to report them, and they'll report you if you report them.
3) You draw a team of W/Mo, R/E, Mo/Me, yourself (A/W). The Mo/Me uses backfire and empathy. The W/Mo uses Mending. The R/E uses Fire Storm. GG.
Problem #3: The average player quality is sinking like the Titanic. And that's not good, because the average player quality wasn't very high to start.
4) Both teams draw two healers and two frontliners.
Problem #4: No one really wants to waste eight minutes on a match, much less twelve. If it isn't over in five minutes, it probably won't ever be over. But once more, you're stuck in the match, unless you take the dishonor hit.
5) They draw an A/Me echoing Shadow Form.
Problem #5: Stupid griefing nonsense is still stupid griefing nonsense. They can still waste your time, they just waste less of your time, and if you don't have a healer, you eventually lose.

Basically, the dishonor system doesn't actually fix the problem of leaving because there are plenty of decent reasons to leave. I think that I've actually lost more time and more matches in RA, proportionately, than I did with leavers hunting for monks.

Assuming that you were able to win a 20-match streaks every time that you enter the arena, that you finished every streak in forty minutes (including wait intervals), and that you played for 8 hours a day, it would take you 333.33 days to max the gladiator title.

The Real Roy Keane · Oct 02, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzer

I do not know when this whole idea of RA being serious came to be popular but, that isnt what RA was made for.

RA is serious business.

Miriandel · Oct 03, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

So far, while probably being a bit biased, I mostly saw
1° noobs
2° people who don't play RAs
being happy about the new system.

But, totally unbiased, I see loads of people complaining about the new system in RAs, be it the lobby or inside teams.

While I agree on the principle, it needs twinking.
ATM, it does more harm than good.