Curse

Performance Pudding · Oct 26, 2007, 07:36 AM // 07:36

inspired me to use a hammer and a axe war in ta and it worked

=DNC=Trucker · Oct 26, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Yeah, it seems if the point of the thread is 16 vs 14 in axe, you need to keep all your other variables constant.

Captain Robo · Oct 26, 2007, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DNC=Trucker

Yeah, it seems if the point of the thread is 16 vs 14 in axe, you need to keep all your other variables constant.

What do you mean by other variables?

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 26, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Taken from this point of view, the 14 guy is playing it safe, and his kills are 'luck' not skill as is so often bemoaned on these forums.

How does skill come into the equation? You're also forgetting that most spikes usually have a second warrior either knockdowning an off monk, mesmer shutdown on a monk at time of spike or adding to to the spike...Lastly deep wound is 100dmg. With the combos listed above even a single 14axe warrior is hitting for average over 250dmg

Shendaar · Oct 26, 2007, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

The 16axe mastery guy, 27 out of 31 rows by my fast count are over 200 total. By comparison only 15 out of 31 rows for the 14 row met this benchmark. That's a pretty big discrepency if it results in successfull kills (87% vs 48%).

I think this is important to keep in mind. The damage difference can seem minimal when you leave out the target's total HP. But when you factor it in, the increased damage and crit % can have quite an impact on the outcome of a spike.

Phades · Oct 27, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

In the current metagame I think you can count on your target being at full health when you start your spike. Starting a spike after pressuring means you spike after hitting it a couple of times already. Which means it should be well protted and your spike will fail anyway. Unless you are using lots of Shatter Enchantments of course.

This is basically what i meant by phsical counter measures, which of course requires counter measures and so on. I didnt think there was much point in going blow for blow on how timing works or coordination that points towards the skill of the teams involved. This would be in opposition towards the notion of luck creating the deciding factor depending on attribute investment. Of course below illustrates one example of this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

How does skill come into the equation? You're also forgetting that most spikes usually have a second warrior either knockdowning an off monk, mesmer shutdown on a monk at time of spike or adding to to the spike...Lastly deep wound is 100dmg. With the combos listed above even a single 14axe warrior is hitting for average over 250dmg

Ekelon · Oct 29, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Just a small observation regards the numbers. One item that flat averages like this disregard is the standard deviation or volatility of the damage spread. That's fine if you're doing raw DPS type figures where the nature of the beast is large numbers of individual hits... but a spike hinges around how much potential can it do, can it exceed a certain minimum threshold reliably when used in 2 or 3 hits.

Just for arguments sake, lets say that if the warrior doesn't do at least 200 points on the spike. The spike is guaranteed to fail if I can't meet it. The casters are only adding 400 in spike support. (caster spike support almost always does a fixed amount of damage w/ very little variance)

The 16axe mastery guy, 27 out of 31 rows by my fast count are over 200 total. By comparison only 15 out of 31 rows for the 14 row met this benchmark. That's a pretty big discrepency if it results in successfull kills (87% vs 48%).

Taken from this point of view, the 14 guy is playing it safe, and his kills are 'luck' not skill as is so often bemoaned on these forums.

So basically, your data also suggests, that the 14 guy with 600 health has 48% chance to die against another incoming spike, but the 16 guy with 525 health has 87% chance to get killed on an incoming spike... Let's not forget that this goes both ways with the method you're using to calculate kill percentages.

Thomas.knbk · Oct 29, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Taken from this point of view, the 14 guy is playing it safe, and his kills are 'luck' not skill as is so often bemoaned on these forums.

Would be true if everyone ran around at full health 100% of the time and all kills were made through spikes.

erk · Oct 29, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekelon

So basically, your data also suggests, that the 14 guy with 600 health has 48% chance to die against another incoming spike, but the 16 guy with 525 health has 87% chance to get killed on an incoming spike... Let's not forget that this goes both ways with the method you're using to calculate kill percentages.

I see your counterpoint, but you are forgetting we are talking about a warriors 80AL+, unless he has cracked armor the chances are the 525 health will still do better than the 60AL caster with 600 health.

ax mastery · Oct 30, 2007, 02:15 AM // 02:15

This is all nice, but for the VAST majority of warriors, getting better at the class with help you far more than 16 axe ever could.

moko · Oct 30, 2007, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

I see your counterpoint, but you are forgetting we are talking about a warriors 80AL+, unless he has cracked armor the chances are the 525 health will still do better than the 60AL caster with 600 health.

do you ever observe?

TheOneMephisto · Oct 30, 2007, 11:17 PM // 23:17

If you're playing warrior and you get DP, you're absolutely worthless at VoD and you start to lose a ton of effectiveness even before that if DP accumulates.

That's a good enough reason to not run sups in GvG.

Reverend Dr · Oct 31, 2007, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Regardless of any benefit they may have, ultimately because of the -75hp after dp and VoD, sup runes won't see any use unless armor swapping becomes available again (which I wish they would have brought back with the ease of making pvp equipment).

I started thinking about average DPS and the arguments of sundering vs vampiric. Ultimately its not dps that kills people, it is big crits on a spike.

Max potential spike at 14 axe,0/10 str (evicerate,executioner,agaonizing): 302/326 + DW
Base crits 59/65x3
Sundering Proc 13/15x3
Evicerate 29
Executioner's 38
Agonizing 19

Max potential at 16 axe, 0/10 str: 327/354+dw
63/70x3
14/16x3
33
42
21

Its a difference of 25/28 (19/22 if you don't take into account sundering procs). A difference of around 20 on a spike is noticble and will allow you to score kills that you would not normally get, although this difference is not as large as many would expect.

Greedy Gus · Nov 01, 2007, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Regardless of any benefit they may have, ultimately because of the -75hp after dp and VoD, sup runes won't see any use unless armor swapping becomes available again

ups, rawr won 2 monthlies in a row with a 16 axe warrior spiking

Reverend Dr · Nov 01, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

ups, rawr won 2 monthlies in a row with a 16 axe warrior spiking

Monthlies tourney != regular play

Dzan · Nov 01, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

If you are running a blow you up Cow build that will lose if the game goes to VoD anyway, why not run superiors? If you are running a split build that plans on a VoD win every match, why in your right mind would you run superiors? Your build dictates the runes, not some objective "best" panoply of equipment.