Curse

Vaga · Nov 01, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

you just demonstrated how much of a noob you are robo, please stop posting if you don't know what you're talking about or don't even gvg.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 01, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

There's absolutely no need for pure energy management spells when skills are balanced in such a way that they are cost-efficient.

Additionally, casters usually provide a defensive or support role to builds, and giving them more options to stalemate games makes for an uninteresting metagame where battles are prolonged well past the lord walk, which is generally frowned upon by the community. Additionally, it makes the game less appealing from a spectator standpoint, and if GW ever wants to be an e-sport, the pace of matches needs to be much faster to make games enjoyable to watch (the last time I bothered to watch a match, everyone was just chatting in local until VoD, which is an indication of how slow paced the game is up to the eighteen minute mark).

I think glyph is sufficient to fuel most casters, nor do I see the need to augment defensive options at this point.

Razz L Dazzle · Nov 01, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Besides, who the hell is faking casts in a blockway meta?

Plenty are, it makes sense. If you try to protect each level of block it makes it more likely that your passive defense it up. Several skills are known when they are about to come up. Midlines are keenly aware when the Ele is about to replace his ward. Why not fake it till you get a fast cast, it will guarantee it gets up and force the mesmer/ranger to waste their interrupts since i can't wait with D-shot or savage to see that you actually complete the cast.

Captain Robo · Nov 02, 2007, 12:06 AM // 00:06

I think everyone is agreed that Glyph shouldn't allow you to fake cast.

But I also think fake casting until you get a fast cast proc is the most retarded thing I've ever heard of. I watch observer all the time and I've never seen anyone ever do it.

You're putting forth the most idiotic argument about a stupid trick that has no great bearing on the outcome of a game.

Is the monk fake casting!? Great, he's not healing! Throw a diversion on him and get a warrior in his face.

So vaga, if you're so pro, reveal to us lesser beings exactly why fake casting under GoLE is destroying the world as we know it.

My argument is essentially this: The only change warranted to GoLE is that it should proc on skill activation, not skill conclusion. That's it.

Fake casting under GoLE is stupid; not in the sense that it's broken, but in the sense that it's a dumb thing to do.

Look at the game Guilty Gear: if I want to (roman cancel) out of a move, it costs half a tension (special) bar. The same should apply here; if you fake your cast, you've gotta pay for it. Better to spend double the energy for the skill and have it cast, than spend the cost and get interrupted.

Don't nerf GoLE, just make the alternatives better; this promotes build diversity and better play overall.

And for the love of God, the people on this board need to develop a sense of humor.

l Teh Mighty Warrior l · Nov 02, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Roko you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

twicky_kid · Nov 02, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The only skill for which this sort of holds true is SoD.

All the Necro elite hexes. Its need either to spam hexes to be able to overload or afford the overpriced elite hexes. SR is not enough of an energy engine for a curser.

Just about every ele elite. Attunements are not enough alone.

Any 15e mesmer elite with the exception to Panic and non-spell elites

SoD on monks I agree there. GoLE would be taken even without SoD for Aegis, PS, and SB.

The game has been balanced around GoLE's energy management. To change it now would need so many tweaks I don't think Anet has the time or resources.

Jaen · Nov 02, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Teh Mighty Warrior l

Roko you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

QFT. Stop being a newb Rono.

Ok but seriously, as people already mentioned before, faking cast in a blockway meta makes sure you can maintain your web and it serves to draw interrupts out of the ranger and/or mesmer. Just because you have a web up doesn't mean you should just park yourself infront of a ranger or mesmer and start casting meteor shower.

Captain Robo · Nov 02, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Teh Mighty Warrior l

Roko you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I wrote 2+ pages stating my views, you could expend a few sentences explaining yours.

Give me an example of where fake casting enabled by GoLE played a significant role in deciding the outcome of a game.

PM me in game next time you see an observer match in which this occurs.

Prove me wrong, don't just make assumptions without supporting yourself with concrete evidence.

l Teh Mighty Warrior l · Nov 02, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

It has already been stated, but since you can't seem to understand it I'll put it all in one convenient post for you.

Canceling Aegis/Melee/LoD properly makes it very hard to interrupt, so why the hell wouldn't you do it?

I don't need to look on observer, every decent team I have ever played against cancel pops aegis/melee when they have glyph up and are being camped by an interrupter.

Master Ketsu · Nov 02, 2007, 01:21 AM // 01:21

These are mostly good suggestions, in fact I would even make it more. Energy denial has been nerfed by neglect. It has been largely left behind the other classes damage output. Another massive damage character will cause monks more energy grief then current E denial.

DarkNecrid · Nov 02, 2007, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Teh Mighty Warrior l

It has already been stated, but since you can't seem to understand it I'll put it all in one convenient post for you.

Canceling Aegis/Melee/LoD properly makes it very hard to interrupt, so why the hell wouldn't you do it?

I don't need to look on observer, every decent team I have ever played against cancel pops aegis/melee when they have glyph up and are being camped by an interrupter.

Hey I agree with you completely.

P.S. Good luck at the GvG Tournament this month, I predicted you guys coming in 1st. Don't prove me wrong now!

Captain Robo · Nov 02, 2007, 01:31 AM // 01:31

That's wonderful.

Now, seeing as people only read selectively, let me restate my thoughts:

Quote:

I think everyone is agreed that Glyph shouldn't allow you to fake cast.

Quote:

The only change warranted to GoLE is that it should proc on skill activation, not skill conclusion. That's it.

Quote:

I agree, GoLE should only work for the next two skill activations, but seriously, anyone wasting time waiting for a fastcast proc is playing the game wrong and deserves to lose. You'd be better off just casting the spell anyway.

Great, it's a cute trick, but it borders on being a game exploit, and should be removed. If you're going to cast something, do it with the preparation of being interrupted. It's a fundamental game mechanic; position yourself better to avoid arrows, coordinate with your team to pressure an opposing mesmer.

It appears that the only thing people have a problem with is me thinking that the whole business of fake casting is not worthwhile and ineffective in the face of better tactics.

Do we need to have a flame war over this?

l Teh Mighty Warrior l · Nov 02, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

I don't think you could contradict yourself any more if you wanted to.

I'm done talking to you, Ensign is right, if you argue with idiots they will beat you with experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

P.S. Good luck at the GvG Tournament this month, I predicted you guys coming in 1st. Don't prove me wrong now!

I wouldn't do that if I were you, I think this next tourny is going to be dR, DF, or vZ. Thanks for the support though.

Zuranthium · Nov 02, 2007, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

It appears that the only thing people have a problem with is me thinking that the whole business of fake casting is not worthwhile and ineffective in the face of better tactics.

If this is true, then why are agreeing that it needs to be changed? It shouldn't matter if you don't think it's a problem.

~Z

Master Ketsu · Nov 02, 2007, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Is the monk fake casting!? Great, he's not healing!

Good monks usually dont spam heals, they watch the battlefield and use skills at the right moment.

Captain Robo · Nov 02, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

If this is true, then why are agreeing that it needs to be changed? It shouldn't matter if you don't think it's a problem.

~Z

I also think that this particular ability of GoLE borders on a game exploit and shouldn't be in the game. If you want to fake cast, go ahead: you can use up the first trigger of GoLE, otherwise you should be expected to pay for it. Sure, I think the ability to fake cast for a proc of fast casting at will while GoLE is up is stupid and ineffectual, but that doesn't change the fact that it still doesn't make sense in terms of game mechanics and overall logic, and therefore should be removed. Interrupts are annoying, but they're a vital part of the game.

Quote:

Good monks usually dont spam heals, they watch the battlefield and use skills at the right moment.

But when you fake cast, you're not resolving anything. What if that opportune moment comes while you're fake casting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Teh Mighty Warrior l

I don't think you could contradict yourself any more if you wanted to.

I'm done talking to you, Ensign is right, if you argue with idiots they will beat you with experience.

I'd love to know how exactly I'm contradicting myself. I honestly can't see it. I'd actually appreciate it if you took a bit of time to read my posts and explain what you mean.

In addition, you don't win arguments by calling the other person an idiot. It's called "ad hominem". It's a giant logical fallacy, and I suggest you look it up some time. All you've shown is an inability to back up your own points and an ability to bring others down by bashing the person instead of the argument.

I'd love for you to prove me wrong. Please.

Razz L Dazzle · Nov 02, 2007, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

But when you fake cast, you're not resolving anything. What if that opportune moment comes while you're fake casting?

This could happen at any other time, not just during fake casting. You may be using LoD and see a teleport derv spike, better to cancel and prot or infuse. So this concern of monks isn't specific to faking nor should it be an increasing concern of your team. Cancelling casts to catch more important instances is what makes your monks good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

but seriously, anyone wasting time waiting for a fastcast proc is playing the game wrong and deserves to lose.

Faking to make sure your big party wide prot skill (ward of melee, aegis) is sucessful is not wasting time, in my oppinion. If your melee and or aegis gets interrupted you're gonna go be exposed to heavy physical pressure and you can collapse if they seize this opportunity. Faking these skills to insure their success verse good interruptors is smart play, not sure what your thinking is. I'd say you deserve to lose if you don't fake cast and you have access to this ability, if you're getting interrupted that is. If you're not getting interrupted at all then there's no reason to get a fast cast as it doesn't matter anyway. If my support gets interrupted all game and i don't see them fake casts, and utilize fast cast sets, i look for a new player to replace them.

The ability to use fake cast and still retain the ability to cast 2 free spells is what the real problem is. Others including yourself have recognized that this ability would be more balanced if glyph of lesser triggered upon skill activation. If this change is made it would improve the midline interaction between rangers/mesmers verse characters try to protect their aegis, melee, etc.. I know midlines as a whole are bad and there are very few good rangers, but the midline characters using melee, aegis etc, have all the advantages at this point. It's more a failure upon those characters if an interrupt gets off than the success of the ranger/mesmer.

DIH49 · Nov 02, 2007, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

I also think that this particular ability of GoLE borders on a game exploit and shouldn't be in the game.

I asked izzy personally to take this part of GoLE out of the game on the day it got buffed. His response was that the GW engine just doesn't work that way. It only registers the usage when a skill completes (interrupts count for this too), so he couldn't technologically get rid of cancel casting.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 02, 2007, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

I asked izzy personally to take this part of GoLE out of the game on the day it got buffed. His response was that the GW engine just doesn't work that way. It only registers the usage when a skill completes (interrupts count for this too), so he couldn't technologically get rid of cancel casting.

So just change it to 7 or 8 energy at 0 energy storage, this way you can still fake your aegis but it comes at a cost.

Of course this would do nothing to eles faking their wards though.

Captain Robo · Nov 02, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

I asked izzy personally to take this part of GoLE out of the game on the day it got buffed. His response was that the GW engine just doesn't work that way. It only registers the usage when a skill completes (interrupts count for this too), so he couldn't technologically get rid of cancel casting.

That's disheartening.

I had no idea that was an issue with the game code.

Quote:

So just change it to 7 or 8 energy at 0 energy storage, this way you can still fake your aegis but it comes at a cost.

Of course this would do nothing to eles faking their wards though.

I get the feeling that this still isn't enough of a penalty, but its probably the best that can be achieved at this time.

At any rate, its not like Aegis and Wards are invincible, even if you fake cast them to avoid interruption. Mirror of Disenchantment cleans Aegis nicely (and if they're packing DA, paragon energy is tighter than that of casters, so they'll be less capable of faking it in the case of interruption), and well coordinated splits have always punished teams who rely heavily on wards for defense. Its not impossible to beat by a longshot, even if it gets past your line of interruption. (Tactics should always beat out cheap tricks)