Curse

Drasu · Oct 27, 2007, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Hi everybody. I'm more of a lurker on these forums, but I need your support for what I hope you'll see as an awesome step forward for PvP.

In a nutshell, costume brawl NEEDS to be made competitive. It is such an awesome gametype and system for not only experienced players, but for new players as well. Why is this, you ask? There are a bunch of reasons-

It is an AMAZING way to get newer players into the PvP. have you ever had a friend that you want to show Guild Wars, but when they come in, they don't have any skills, weapons, armor, or runes? The format of Costume brawl pretty much solves that by giving them everything you need to succeed. This removes the bar that so many newer players have had to deal with in order to play the game, and makes it easy for them to learn the ropes of team-based PvP, opening the doorway to gametypes like GvG. Not only that, but it makes the game really easy to get into as well- all you need to do is come in as a primary class, and you've got your skills and equipment set up for you, regardless of whether you have them unlocked or not.

Costume Brawl also brings on something that all lesser-than GvG gametypes suffer horribly- abolishment of the buildwars plague. We've all heard time and time again from Izzy that this game is balanced around 8v8, or more specifically GvG (hence why crap like recall is not being nerfed to oblivion in hero battles, for example). The format in Costume Brawl is an amazing solution to this problem- Anet gives out the skills that you play with, the armor, and the runes. With this, gimmick builds are not only removed; with the skill selection ability that anet could have in specifying the templates in costume brawl, you could balance the gametype without touching balance in GvG, or any other gametype (which is the MAIN reason lesser-man gametypes aren't in the first place!)

This aspect of skill specifying by anet also brings me to my next point: the MASSIVE depth of Costume Brawl. I've argued time and time again, as well as other members of this forum, that making Hero Battles 4 players v 4 players would be an amazing step towards making this game a mainstream casual, but competitive game. Costume Brawl is not only the incarnation of this suggestion, but it takes a step further by making it with 5 players, which makes for some rediculously increased strategical depth. Just imagine all of the possibilities for organized teams - 2 squads of 2 players, 1 rogue player? 4 players, 1 assassin ninja to steal as an extremely mobile shrine stealer? A team of two and a team of 3 in a set of small skirmishes? Add this to the class system of guild wars and you've got an got potential for exactly what Arenanet marketed back when GW was coming out- a seemingly simple game of infinite dimensions. And don't forget, people- with everyone having the same skills, you have the knowledge of what your opposing party is running skill for skill, and that brings a completely new dimension of mindgames to the table.

Don't you see how amazing this gametype would be if they made it competitive? Can you imagine how awesome it would be if an random and team version of this were made? If the gametype were then added to the AT rotation? The skill specification aspect would also make it easy to offer fresh new metagames to the Costume Brawl gametype as well by changing the skills every season, as well. For example, the first season would have a dev hammer template for warriors, an eviscerate template for the second season, and so on. Again, not only is balance achieved in a lesser than 8v8 gametype by this, but a system like this lets the balancers change the skills of these templates on a whim to get rid of whatever unbalanced or gimmicky build that crops up early on in the season, and adds another dimension of mindgames to the table.

I look at the big picture of Costume Brawl, and I see a goldmine of potential. Ladies and gentlemen, I need your support to make this idea a reality. Feel free to respond with your signature to press this as a gametype, questions, or constructive comments. Thanks.

Iko · Oct 27, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

This is exactly what I was thinking about the gametype as well.

/signed

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 27, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Half of what you like about the costume brawl has been touched upon before. Years ago. That's sealed deck play. Skills picked before hand.

Draikin · Oct 27, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drasu

Don't you see how amazing this gametype would be if they made it competitive?

No, I honestly don't. It's based on the most imbalanced PvP format in the game (HvH) to begin with, even a simple "Costume Brawl" version of RA/TA would already be better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drasu

This aspect of skill specifying by anet also brings me to my next point: the MASSIVE depth of Costume Brawl.

I don't see how taking away the ability to select your own skills adds depth to the gameplay.

Iko · Oct 27, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Winning in sealed play is determined by luck. Whoever got the better draw and got some basic knowledge about pvp wins. Moreover sealed play requires you to create a build which consumes time. Of course buildchoice is usually an important factor in guildwars and it should be, but I think costume brawl offers enough variations while keeping the format simple.

Quote:

I don't see how taking away the ability to select your own skills adds depth to the gameplay.

Ever heard of Build Wars? It sucks, doesn't it?

Greedy Gus · Oct 27, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Yeah it's good that anet now has the code set up for it. They likely will let it go to waste like only letting us play dragon arena two or three times a year, but it would be nice if they applied this to a GvG format (just need better bars & attributes). Providing (and restricting play to) strong, robust character templates that reward player skill = great competition.

Drasu · Oct 27, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

No, I honestly don't. It's based on the most imbalanced PvP format in the game (HvH) to begin with, even a simple "Costume Brawl" version of RA/TA would already be better.

The problem with having that is that RA/TA is just elimination. Two teams, go kill each other. The objective is too linear to have it as a costume brawl gametype, imo- it would get boring fast. With the shrine control + skirmish layout, you have a completely new strategical arena you have to deal with, and it makes the players have to think up strategies on top of having to deal with other players. Elimination gametypes like TA are played because of the fact that you have access to so many skills- when you are dealing with pregiven skillbars, you have to give a little more depth to the gametype than just elimination to keep it interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

I don't see how taking away the ability to select your own skills adds depth to the gameplay.

Iko hit it on the nail. The biggest problem in less than 8v8 gametypes is balance, and having to remove that shortfall results in player strategy and skill being the key to victory.

Captain Robo · Oct 27, 2007, 06:19 PM // 18:19

I've been wanting a format that was 6v6 for a long time. I can't stand TA/RA most of the time, and 8v8 just takes too long to set up. There's always needed to be a median between the two.

DutchSmurf · Oct 27, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

When done right, it could be great. However, when it isn't done right, it will be horrible. It does solve many of the problems GW PvP had until now tho.

xodius · Oct 27, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

i agree with drasu 100% this does make an enormous change for pvp, refreshed and real skill competitive game. A game type like costume brawl should be implemented not only to benefit the experienced player, but to help the newcomers understand the real basic and dynamics of the game at first hand and with no hassle, in these type of game you dont have to worry about your teamates build-equipment anymore, just how good he/she plays, so that my friends, is pure competition at hand, now by this you can leave the other arenas alone, but in costume brawl type of game, the frustration might be lesser and the actual game can be more enjoyable and fun, wich in my opinion, is the essence of why we buy a game.

ps: just think opened mindly for a sec, it wont hurt no one to implement something like this in pvp, and good times are just arround the corner.

Captain Robo · Oct 27, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

For the love of God though, change the smite monk skillbar to a healing monk

Riotgear · Oct 27, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Needs more condition removal.
Surge/Burn mesmers with weapon mods disabled is lame.
Whoever made the ranger bar 10/11/12 instead of 14/10/10 is a tard.

etc.

Iko · Oct 27, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

weapon swapping is not disabled. They just dont give you additional energy

switching to 20/20sets, Longbows etc is all possible

Riotgear · Oct 27, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Yeah, I know, I mean weapon swapping to deal with the e-denial. It's impossible to make a low/hi set so the purple -8 spam always sticks.

Kyp Jade · Oct 27, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

WHy is GFTE on the paragon bar again? it serves no purpose and that bar niether needs energy manage, nor do you net much from gfte anyway in that environment. Fail skill selection imo

Iko · Oct 27, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

I think Paragons will always be terrible in such an invironment because their utility is just terrible and the party wide buffing and ranged dps hardly matters.

All the other bars serve a certain purpose and are worth running imo.

Anata · Oct 27, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Sounds like a great idea, if only some of the monk's skill gets changed... Damage + self heal is a great idea, but the heals on the monk is a bit weak. Divine Intervention is a bit weird in a battle like this lol.

Anyways,
/Signed

Drasu · Oct 27, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Yeah, I know, I mean weapon swapping to deal with the e-denial. It's impossible to make a low/hi set so the purple -8 spam always sticks.

Indeed. I agree with you, weapon sets should be modifiable.

Quote:

EDIT -- Okay, most of the bars are pretty terrible, really.

They are subpar, but the fact that they are ALL subpar makes them balanced, in my opinion. In fact, I like the direction they've gone with the templates- they're all semi-self sufficient, in that they all have damage and utility, and self heals. Granted, the self heals aren't outstanding, but with outside heals from monks and rit on top of them, you can actually keep yourself alive against direct pressure. That, and the wide variety of skill-intensive skills that are offered in the gametype (using shield bash to block a ranger's Pin Down for example, or using AoD to distrupt and warp from shrine to shrine, or even using bane signet to stop an assassin's golden phoenix strike to stop his combo dead in it's tracks; the list goes on) make the current presets balanced and reliant on player skill.

Anyway, as I said in the OP, the skills are relatively a small deal, since they can be modified by Arenanet balancers (read: izzy). We need to push this idea through the door first before worrying about the finer details :P

twicky_kid · Oct 27, 2007, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

I don't see how taking away the ability to select your own skills adds depth to the gameplay.

Its called restrictions. Every competitive sport in the world has restrictions and rules. MTG has restrictions and rules. Imagine how fun Counter Strike would be if everyone was given a rocket launcher. Its those restrictions that make a competitive sport or game good.

Its been a fundamental flaw with GW PvP since day 1.

Drasu · Oct 27, 2007, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Its been a fundamental flaw with GW PvP since day 1.

I wouldn't exactly call it a flaw. In GvG, I welcome the diversity, as the amount of different resources you can bring in a balanced build lets you deal with arising problems dynamically, and if there are imbalances in the gametype, since it's the highlight of balance, you just adress the problems via balance updates. However, I think that in lesser-man gametypes than 8v8, not only do you deal with skills that become unbalanced due to the loss of players/skills, but the lack of utility you're able to bring is a big downfall, so you need Arenanet to bring in restrictions to keep things balanced without having to make seperate skill lists for 4v4/5v5 and 8v8 (Which is realistically never going to happen).

Thanks for posting, though, Twicky Kid, I appreciate your support and interest!