Curse

wuzzman · Sep 06, 2007, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

The fact that [Ryuk] is in champ point land doesn't speak as much about how much heroes are overpowered as much as how much the top 100 guilds rely on double D anthem, triple aegis, wards, SoD rather than work on handling half-assed splits effectively and just plain not sucking when not in 75% block rate God mode.

Facing a split effectively means you have to not suck. [Ryuk] winning so many champ points means there are just that many teams out there that can't play without every goddamn defense skill in the game.

Hate to say it, but I agree with mirage on this issue.

Guess what there is this new build out! Its called wait-for-vod-way. Everyone learn to chain aegis + DA + use blindbots with wards. Plz spam SoD and guardian to your heart content. And don't forget to learn the art of spamming Sor! 20 minute matches guaranteed!!!!!

Snow Bunny · Sep 06, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Your argument with regards to the AI Guild lord and attendants still fails colossally.

The archers and fighters and Bodyguard will not be game-breaking before VoD. They will not inflict DP and degen across teams, nor will they supplant other players. They won't split and aid in ganking the GL, nor will they play any role in shutdown, active defense, or spikes.

Heroes do though. Heroes, when used in the active role that you are placing them in, do play a part and ultimately take on the responsibilities of a human player. Which sucks.

/endpoliteness

That is complete, utter bullshit. It is so mindlessly easy to crash through the defenders of the guild hall, they are more of a deterent than anything. It's only the Natural Resistance of the GL that prevents matches from lasting 30 seconds.

EDIT: Spelling Errors

I don't want to fight your heroes. I don't really care about the AI defenders because they AREN'T taking the place of a human.
Stop using heroes.

Despozblehero · Sep 07, 2007, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

*snip*

Heros arent an essay or a peice of paper your analogy fails miserably. Maintaining Heros by ANET is going to be undeniably more work than removing them from HA and GvG, devs will have to consider HvH, PvE, GvG, and HA if they ever wanted to do anything with them as far as AI or skill balance goes, and saying skill balance will solve all hero problems forever is short sighted.You obviously did read my post but since it seems at the very least your reading comprehension sucks, or at worst you refuse to see any other way but your own through some thick cloud of density around your head, its a waste of time trying to explain the opposing point of view to you which you yet again completely fail at understanding (if youre going to accuse me of flaming well there it is I guess)... Go to HvH where you belong. /endnonsense

Shmanka · Sep 07, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Go to HvH where you belong.

Some guy in PvE told my guildie to do that 2 days ago... and then I got it today >.>

/random

In all honesty Battousai I have to agree, you have not addressed the simple implications I noted nor proven false of anyone you have quoted.

I think the debate should move on, simply said we're backtracking to low end arguments which will end up in flame. I am determined to keep this thread open.

Andrew you made a good observation sadly no one is following it, yet I do believe that somethings can be proven wrong even if you "feel" it. A simple historic reference could be made about events during the WWII era. Hitler did "wrong things" even though it was his personal opinion sadly it reflected on a whole nation.

Also just because a few people have notions that if they are the minority they are not automatically wrong, although guess what. In order to succeed in a business (let's not kid ourselves here ANet wants to make money) they need to meet the expectations of the greater population.

I don't care if your the minority or the majority, make your points clear and not jibber jabber with random examples that come from the damn sky.

/end rant

Make clear posts I only see a few, and to those thank you.

With 174 Votes the complete elimination of heroes from high end pvp is at a stunning 60.47% and 15.70% this whole change if it happens has no impact on at all. Think about these statistics and when you post. I am not convinced by alot of them, mainly the supporters of heroes. I have pointed out general flaws and consequences along with the positive effects they can give. No one has truly added or attempted to challenge any of them which I am surprised.

Legendary Battousai · Sep 07, 2007, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Your argument with regards to the AI Guild lord and attendants still fails colossally.

The archers and fighters and Bodyguard will not be game-breaking before VoD. They will not inflict DP and degen across teams, nor will they supplant other players. They won't split and aid in ganking the GL, nor will they play any role in shutdown, active defense, or spikes.

Heroes do though. Heroes, when used in the active role that you are placing them in, do play a part and ultimately take on the responsibilities of a human player. Which sucks.

/endpoliteness

That is complete, utter bullshit. It is so mindlessly easy to crash through the defenders of the guild hall, they are more of a deterent than anything. It's only the Natural Resistance of the GL that prevents matches from lasting 30 seconds.

EDIT: Spelling Errors

I don't want to fight your heroes. I don't really care about the AI defenders because they AREN'T taking the place of a human.
Stop using heroes.

I want to run heroes, you dont want to fight heroes. Why should you win just based on that? Heroes are more active: they are ran by humans. Whats the difference between a hero and a human then? AI. So your complaining about hero AI but not henchmen AI? That doesn't make any sense because they both have the same AI. Thus, once again, I go in the same circle to once again say: It is build, not heroes in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despozblehero

peice

Go away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Some guy in PvE told my guildie to do that 2 days ago... and then I got it today >.>

/random

In all honesty Battousai I have to agree, you have not addressed the simple implications I noted nor proven false of anyone you have quoted.

I think the debate should move on, simply said we're backtracking to low end arguments which will end up in flame. I am determined to keep this thread open.

Andrew you made a good observation sadly no one is following it, yet I do believe that somethings can be proven wrong even if you "feel" it. A simple historic reference could be made about events during the WWII era. Hitler did "wrong things" even though it was his personal opinion sadly it reflected on a whole nation.

Also just because a few people have notions that if they are the minority they are not automatically wrong, although guess what. In order to succeed in a business (let's not kid ourselves here ANet wants to make money) they need to meet the expectations of the greater population.

I don't care if your the minority or the majority, make your points clear and not jibber jabber with random examples that come from the damn sky.

/end rant

Make clear posts I only see a few, and to those thank you.

With 174 Votes the complete elimination of heroes from high end pvp is at a stunning 60.47% and 15.70% this whole change if it happens has no impact on at all. Think about these statistics and when you post. I am not convinced by alot of them, mainly the supporters of heroes. I have pointed out general flaws and consequences along with the positive effects they can give. No one has truly added or attempted to challenge any of them which I am surprised.

So, with a stunning 174 votes, you believe ANY of them are high end PvPers? I could count the number with one hand. You are in Guild Wars Guru. This is a forum made up of 99.9% PvErs/low level PvPers, and .1% of High End PvPers because they all quit the game anyways. I don't go into PvE polls and give my opinion of something that doesn't effect me. People go into this thread, as a low-end PvPer giving their opinion about heroes. They lose to heroes, heroes make the game unfun for them.

Not playing makes the game unfun for me.
I prefer to play this game.
I bought this game to play.
Why must I sit in the guild hall with 4 other people, and nobody to guest online and do nothing fun. Playing anything but GvG is caused by numbness- numbness of the flavor of shit.
I should be punished because someone else finds heroes distasteful, and I don't?

So you truly believe I would be better off if Heroes, which effects barely anything in the first place, if they were removed from the game? You are removing things, taking things away, deleting things from this game. How does deleting things help? Removing heroes is like removing a limb because you feel an itch- complete overreaction. You'll just end up killing PvP in the process, not like it isn't already.

Cmon people, look at the guilds playing. Look on observer mode. Do you see anyone as good as EvIL, WM, Te, iQ etc. play? Rarely. Very rarely. PvP in this game is dying; killing heroes speeds it up.

Once again; Henchmen = Heroes. Nobody has argued this point. Henchmen are the exact same thing as heroes, I can make my hero run the exact same bar as henchmen and they do the EXACT SAME THING. The only single difference is B U I L D. They are no different. If you want to complain about heroes, complain about the build they abuse, not the heroes themselves. How many times must this be said before it is read?

Until someone can intelligently prove to me why Heroes are such a problem compared to Henchmen, besides Tainted Flesh, which is fixable by its self, don't bother saying anything regarding how heroes are bad for PvP. Henchmen completely destroy anything anyone can come up with.

Mirage Isnt Emo · Sep 07, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despozblehero

dont aim for an 8 man PvP arena without 8 people, theres too many tools at your disposal to say you cant get 8 people together, and theres too many other options for you to say theres nothing else to go do, if the other things to do are too boring, hell you could just stop playing for a while your Heros wont miss you...

Because you know, in AT's, the top guilds don't play at the same time. Or the fact that a lot of players in this game aren't competent. I love how everyone says go back to hvh, when it is a completely different gametype. I dont see the need for your flaming, when I know if I say the slighest thing it will be deleted...

wuzzman · Sep 08, 2007, 01:11 AM // 01:11

hey there is a new build out. Its called wait-for-vod-way, so everyone drop the heroes and grab your DA+Blindbot+Wards+Aegis+Sod+guardian spam+occasional Sor build. Come on its fun! 20 minute matches guaranteed.

Servant of Kali · Sep 08, 2007, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Play with casters then? Blindbots Wards Aegis SoD and Guardian as well as DA don't hurt casters. If everyone is playing with 2 warriors 2 paragons (or 1P 1R) then what's wrong with bringing counters? It's how metagame should work. Nothing stops you from countering their meta. Some are actually doing it already with dual dom mesmers for instance.

Redwinter · Sep 08, 2007, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Poll is biased.

It's not that I don't care, I fully support & want heroes in my HA/GvG.

Have a heart for the 'little guys' - the guilds that aren't interested in top notch PvP, who want to participate casually when they can't get a full team together.

Snow Bunny · Sep 08, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwinter

Poll is biased.

It's not that I don't care, I fully support & want heroes in my HA/GvG.

Have a heart for the 'little guys' - the guilds that aren't interested in top notch PvP, who want to participate casually when they can't get a full team together.

The poll is biased? Explain, please.

And stop with the little guy argument, go get your bambi or whatever and be done with it.

Servant of Kali · Sep 08, 2007, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwinter

Have a heart for the 'little guys' - the guilds that aren't interested in top notch PvP, who want to participate casually when they can't get a full team together.

My guilds rank varies from 700-1300 because everyone in the guild plays (there's no core gvg set). Is that enough casual for you?

NO HEROES.

If you can't get a team together in whole alliance+guild+friends you dont play GvG. Period.

manitoba1073 · Sep 08, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

The poll is biased? Explain, please.

And stop with the little guy argument, go get your bambi or whatever and be done with it.

The poll is biased just by looking where its at. You should know better to not know that Snow Bunny.

Legendary Battousai · Sep 08, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

If you can't get a team together in whole alliance+guild+friends you dont play GvG. Period.

If I can't get a competent team together in whole alliance+guild+friends, I play GvG with heroes. Period. More fun.

Servant of Kali · Sep 08, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

There ought to be a law against stupidity.

Just you wait till I finish uni and make one.

wuzzman · Sep 08, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Play with casters then? Blindbots Wards Aegis SoD and Guardian as well as DA don't hurt casters. If everyone is playing with 2 warriors 2 paragons (or 1P 1R) then what's wrong with bringing counters? It's how metagame should work. Nothing stops you from countering their meta. Some are actually doing it already with dual dom mesmers for instance.

99.99% of caster spikes are nerfed...LOL and if they was one invented that worked in Ha or GvG besides smite ball and OG blood spike(which are by the way very ineffective), then it will be nerfed royally. Lol shows how much you know about the game little one. the counters been nerfed lol.

Shmanka · Sep 09, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

If you can't get a team together in whole alliance+guild+friends you dont play GvG. Period.

This is how it has worked pre-nightfall, and I hope they return to it. Simply said.

Quote:

If I can't get a competent team together in whole alliance+guild+friends, I play GvG with heroes. Period. More fun.

Thats horrible logic, if A, B, or C does not work for you to rally a team, then magic happens and you get one. There is NO other game where you can call Computer AI to aid you in competition. If this is how the game is actually going to stay, people might as well return to Starcraft 1, and Counter Strike.

Quote:

The poll is biased just by looking where its at. You should know better to not know that Snow Bunny.

The poll is biased because of its location? It's a PvP Matter in the PvP Forums. I guess STOP signs don't belong in 4-Way intersections.

Abedeus · Sep 09, 2007, 04:39 AM // 04:39

A team of 2 players + 6 heroes isn't a PvP. It's just plain stupidity and fact, that some builds are better ran by heroes than players isn't helping anyone. Heroways shouldn't be one of the best builds, but it is...
So my vote is - ban them. You want to pvp (heahhahheh) with heroes, go to hero battles. Stay out of HA/GvG.

Yue · Sep 09, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

I thought you could only have 4 heroes in a gvg.

And if you can't beat heroway, you're kinda bad. People lose to it sometimes from dumb shit, but shit happens.

Mirage Isnt Emo · Sep 09, 2007, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

I thought you could only have 4 heroes in a gvg.

And if you can't beat heroway, you're kinda bad. People lose to it sometimes from dumb shit, but shit happens.

Agreed, but going off onto what ppl said about heroway not being fun to play against... Atm this game really isnt that fun... People sit at the flag stand, constantly building walls with their lego's, while matches take forever. Heroway is boring to play against, but its better then walls of lego's.

Despozblehero · Sep 09, 2007, 07:54 AM // 07:54

If the argument is "The current game is dying, we need Hero's to make up for that!" Doesn't that sort of seem like treating a symptom and not treating the actual the problem?

I dislike "VODway" as much as anyone else but thats a job for skill balance... or the design of VOD itself... not Hero's IMHO.