Curse

Icy DS · Sep 05, 2007, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Anyway...why are we banning heroes again? You want a pure, competitive, untarnished pvp environment? Sorry, but you are about 2 years too late for that ^^

Leave heroes in HA and GvG, let people play the game they paid for.

Infact, they need to let us have 7 heroes in our parties, I am interested to see how many one man guilds would make top 100

In all seriousness, HA and GvG are no longer sacred forms of pvp ( HA never was, but it had its better days ). A competitive Guild Wars is pretty much no longer possible unless Anet does a major overhaul, which will never happen because it is not worth the time and effort they would need to devote to a game they are abandoning for GWII ( aka: World of Charrcraft ). Too many people have quit/don't care about serious pvp anymore ( or guild wars in general ) and Anet had given up pretty much all support for a competitive environment, so much for their catch phrase "changing the world of competitive gaming" at the time of release. There will always be players in HA and GvG, but the skill required to play and win will continue to go down. The best thing for Anet to do right now is to stop trying to make half hearted attempts at bettering the game and either:

a) do a major overhaul, and offer a championship event again ( not likely )

b) resign all "honor" and let people make 7 hero parties in HA and GvG so people can farm titles for GWII ( still not likely)

To be honest, b is the best option, it would give pvers something to do and new titles to achieve. There really is no reason not to.

Ms Utena Tenjou · Sep 05, 2007, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

But your not learning about PvP, that's the problem. Your learning a much lower-level, degenerate form of PvP. Sometimes people forget that learning to PvP isn't just starting to win, it's actually acquiring the skills and a huge part of acquiring the connections and getting into the community. Playing with heroes eliminates a huge amount of skills that you really will need to get into high-level PvP (all the coordination, a ton of the tactics, knowing how and when to push and back off, maneuvering, body-blocking, it goes on and on), and also manages to cut down on your potential connections pool ensuring that you won't be able to play with real people even if you wanted to. And then it also has the side effect that if you actually succeed with heroes, your chance of playing with real players decreases even more, as any decent player will look down on you.

Don't think that learning PvP with heroes is PvP, because all it is is a crutch that will make your entrance into the PvP scene much longer and more painful.

Okay so do you expect anyone in HA to take a unranked person? Sure it was easy 2 years ago.. but times change.. i have a better chance to take hero's with me then i have with people to help me rank up and understand the concepts.. i guess i have to learn until i can get bambi

wuzzman · Sep 05, 2007, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icy DS

Anyway...why are we banning heroes again? You want a pure, competitive, untarnished pvp environment? Sorry, but you are about 2 years too late for that ^^

Leave heroes in HA and GvG, let people play the game they paid for.

Infact, they need to let us have 7 heroes in our parties, I am interested to see how many one man guilds would make top 100

In all seriousness, HA and GvG are no longer sacred forms of pvp ( HA never was, but it had its better days ). A competitive Guild Wars is pretty much no longer possible unless Anet does a major overhaul, which will never happen because it is not worth the time and effort they would need to devote to a game they are abandoning for GWII ( aka: World of Charrcraft ). Too many people have quit/don't care about serious pvp anymore ( or guild wars in general ) and Anet had given up pretty much all support for a competitive environment, so much for their catch phrase "changing the world of competitive gaming" at the time of release. There will always be players in HA and GvG, but the skill required to play and win will continue to go down. The best thing for Anet to do right now is to stop trying to make half hearted attempts at bettering the game and either:

a) do a major overhaul, and offer a championship event again ( not likely )

b) resign all "honor" and let people make 7 hero parties in HA and GvG so people can farm titles for GWII ( still not likely)

To be honest, b is the best option, it would give pvers something to do and new titles to achieve. There really is no reason not to.

the truth shall set the noobs free. Anet stop caring, look at gwen not even trying to look at pvp besides some token RA build buffs. The others that are valueable for gvg will see some play time till they are nerfed like ether prodigy, so see that Incoming. Then there is guild wars 2. Ab/RA and gvg are the only forms of pvp. Forget HA or Ta. Either play pve against stupid players or find a half decent guild.

The players stop caring. Look at Ha, there are only 3 id's at any given time, and only 1 american district. Not high end enough for you, look at the number r100 guilds that are afk for life. Tell me how competitive pvp really is when there are no players to even fight against. Try starting a new guild and start a gvg. I could get coffee before that thing finds a worthy oppenant.

Sorry but don't flog the dead horse.

Servant of Kali · Sep 05, 2007, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ms Utena Tenjou

sometimes hero's are good for Unranked people (like me) who want to learn about Pvp but no one will take you..

PvPing with Heroes will teach you as much about PvP as doing the first Nightfall mission. Good luck, just don't complain later how no one still doesn't wanna take you.

Heroes won't give you feedback. Heroes won't tell you why some skill you're using is bad and what would be better. Heroes won't tell you what to do in battle because they listen to you after all, not vice versa. Therefore you will never really learn any tactics. Moreover, you will be too busy ordering heroes around to actually see wtf is going on in the battle.

And don't give me the crap with "can't find team". If it's HA, no one SHOULD take you; you're supposed to practice elsewhere like more or less everyone else did. As for GvG, there are plenty of guilds who GvG with newbies. Your problem is you don't feel like changing guild, but you feel like GvGing. I'm sorry, no. If you can't get 4 people online in your guild (plus other 4 from alliance etc) then don't GvG, you can do PvE or RA or Fort Aspenwood or Hero Battles if you're such a Hero fan. Or TA.

"Can't find team so have to use heroes" is so overrated in PvP. How on earth do you think I learned how to PvP? I played RA alot, for start. Then I played TA a lot, for start. Then I played HA a bit but didn't like it. Then I played GvG and even though it was slightly confusing in the beginning (like wtf catapult) it takes little time to get the basics. The rest is experience.

I'm a bit tired of people who like to be in 3-man guilds just so they can be leaders and officers, and at the same time complain about lack of people in GvG. If you have ego problems and can't be a normal GvG member, then don't play PvP. Real PvP is about team coordination and teamplay, not about one man armies.

Quote:

Okay so do you expect anyone in HA to take a unranked person?

What do you think I did, came to HA said "rank0 lfg" and immediatly got several invites? No, I played with friends I met in RA and TA, and with guildies.

If you expect to PUG every time you PvP, good luck. You can check #gwp irc channel I guess, but that's about it.

Keithark · Sep 05, 2007, 12:38 PM // 12:38

funny how all the "leet" PvP players can't kill a few heros.....also how you whine that nobody plays PvP anymore and things need to be changed for more to play but then vote to remove the only way some people can play (heros) because they don't have enough guildies interested in PvP

RhanoctJocosa · Sep 05, 2007, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

I think some of you are misunderstanding each other. Some people do not want heroes in PvP because they feel they give an advantage. Feel free to debate that issue. But others are against heroes in PvP simply because they feel PvP should be people vs people. That means whether the hero teams are unbeatable, or completely easy to roll, they still do not want to face them in PvP. You can argue the first point on either side, but the second is really personal preference, and it's hard to say someones opinion is "right" or "wrong."

Also, keep in mind that you can try to disprove other peoples statements all day long, but thats not nearly as valuable and influential as proving your own to be true.

For guilds to be able to win matches with 3 heroes, and I mean completely destroy teams, and yet lose to the same/similar teams without the 3 heroes and instead real, smart players who talk on vent and such there's something wrong.

But I think you knew this.. I hope. Please look into getting them removed/hit very hard in some way, AP.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

funny how all the "leet" PvP players can't kill a few heros.....also how you whine that nobody plays PvP anymore and things need to be changed for more to play but then vote to remove the only way some people can play (heros) because they don't have enough guildies interested in PvP

All the old, talented PvPers have quit and have been replaced by idiots who think cspacing with thumpers or spiking with sp sins while their heroes provide consistent pressure is quality PvP. Remove heroes and maybe some old players will be drawn back to GW. PvP can only get better with the removal of heroes from GvG and HA.

Servant of Kali · Sep 05, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

lso how you whine that nobody plays PvP anymore and things need to be changed for more to play but then vote to remove the only way some people can play (heros) because they don't have enough guildies interested in PvP

If you read the link i pasted here you wouldn't be talking about "the only way".

axe · Sep 05, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Some people do not want heroes in PvP because they feel they give an advantage.

Fact: There are players in this game that are worse than Heroes

To keep it at the simplest level, lets assume there are 2 teams of equal skill level, on BOTH teams the human players are not as good as the Hero AI.

Team 1 has 1 hero

Team 2 has 0 heroes

Team 1 will win

Now this is a GROSS simplification of the problem but it does easily show that Heroes give an advantage in this situation. More realistically though this will be uncommon and both teams will be beaten by a majority of the teams in the field.

The more prevelant problem is abusing certain aspects of Hero AI to compliment a team build. Personally skill/build/and now AI abuse has always been a problem in this game and for me its just a cost of doing business in the arena that I like to play in. I dont mind losing to Heroes, I dont mind winning against them, I dont even mind continuously facing them because its the same with any Meta build. There will always be "problematic" builds in this game. The solution would be proper skill balancing and adjusting game mechanics to provide the greatest level of fun for the greatest number of people. If Meta builds were adjusted in a more appropriate way the variety of builds in HA would make it extremely fun and interesting. I would love to go into HA and not know which of the old/new FotM builds I would be facing. More commonly builds are adjusted so that they are under par with other options and then a new FotM emerges temporarily and its a viscious cycle.

For me this is not about Heroes in high level PvP, this is about a FotM build that is perfect for PUG teams (as all FotM builds are) in HA and perhaps needs to be looked at.

wuzzman · Sep 05, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Lol. Why would the old players come back to guild wars if anet did mega update of guru child dreams? No, old players left because guess what they got tired of the game. Not balance, not Ha change, not even heroway. There are even less players and more afk top 100 guilds now after the nerf/updates then they were before. You think that will change if Izzy stayed up to 1pm trying to plz ever torch baring idiot after knowing not one thing he did on their behalf will add not a single district in HA? Izzy could do double fame weekends every months still get paid, and get more thank you mail then hate mail. Honestly, world pvp is what in GW2 who is still taking pvp this seriously?

Despozblehero · Sep 05, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

If it made no difference if we were fighting human teams or AI in PvP why would people opt for an online game? (in which the ONLY benefit is human interaction)

I mean i could just go M-M-Monster kill in Unreal and have a blast if that was what fun was to me...

As for the new player argument:
Why would you, as a new player, choose to play with something that will never help you get better, will never suggest ANYTHING to you, never get other people to HELP you, and if your are really new youll just epic fail at controlling 1 skillbar at once much less 2 or 3 so itll have to be an auto attack build on that Hero or you lose. Hero's are beginners tools for PvE and should NEVER take the place of a real human IMHO.

Once again if you're "pro" you wont care about hero's at all anyways, you'll actually probably not want to see the crap that they've spammed up to now, and if you're a point farmer you'll hang on to them for dear life cause thats your "easy button." Which imho you shouldn't be allowed to have and the people who have gone through the process to get a team together should be rewarded for their efforts by being able to compete.

As it is if I wanted to fight with Hero's why wouldn't I go to HvH? I mean its there and should be encouraged for those that like that sort of thing. Id just PvE if I really felt like fighting AI though.

Ec]-[oMaN · Sep 05, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icy DS

But seriously...i have yet to hear a real reason why people want heroes removed...don't give me this "If i wanted to play against AI i would pve" crap, because thats not the real reason...

How do you know it's not the real reason?

I said it before, maybe it's possible to match up hero teams with other teams using heroes...

Don't even get me started on how Hero discord spike was so broken, you can't deny that, nor can you deny that they spiked better than 90% of the GW player base.

Heroes were never really a problem, it was just the builds that saw play with them which were.

At this stage however I could care less about banning heroes from the PVP forms of play. The damage has already been done and PVP in GW will continue to dwindle rapidly.

Icy DS · Sep 05, 2007, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

How do you know it's not the real reason?
At this stage however I could care less about banning heroes from the PVP forms of play. The damage has already been done and PVP in GW will continue to dwindle rapidly.

Exactly...you don't care if heroes are banned or are not banned...that is the way it should be...

Guild Wars pvp is no longer enjoyable to most players who enjoyed the game when it WAS enjoyable...

How do I know its not the real reason? Simple, i'll tell you.

The players who are still playing and who are actively complaining about heroes are players who are new to the game (anyone who started after factions was released) and they don't know what a balanced and enjoyable guild wars is like, so they think the guild wars they started with was balanced and enjoyable. Heroes come along and all the sudden their 321spike tactics don't work, now they complain because the win button skills they grew up with aren't going to beat a heroway. That is the reason they complain. Not because its not a pure fair play pvp environment, but because they aren't winning with their inferior builds and skill.

Its not about a fair play environment they are worried about, its the fact that they realize heroes > them, therefore heroes must be done away with and they can't stand other people making hero groups and getting more fame than them. Fame \/\/hores are like that ^^ (these are people that still think /rank means something)

Anyone who truly cares/cared about guild wars is no longer worried about it, we know guild wars is in the past and there is NOTHING anyone can do to get the game back to where it used to be and we have moved on, some to different games, some like myself are just casually getting titles and minipets for GWII.

So i am just throwing my two cents in and saying forget about trying to make these fame \/\/hores happy and just let people make 7 hero parties so anyone can get their hero title for their hall of monuments.

As for me? I don't care about it eitherway, I've got my tiger, and i don't have the will to play rubberbanding relic runs to get a phoenix.

The last time i play tombs was about 6 months ago when people were paying me for fame and i hated every minute of it ^^ and i only played enough to complete my minipet collection, but other than that i quit caring about tombs in november 05'

TheOneMephisto · Sep 05, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ms Utena Tenjou

Okay so do you expect anyone in HA to take a unranked person? Sure it was easy 2 years ago.. but times change.. i have a better chance to take hero's with me then i have with people to help me rank up and understand the concepts.. i guess i have to learn until i can get bambi

Don't pretend that I had it easy getting into PvP. I spent around 3-4 months straight playing RA/TA before I developed some friends and connections that I could use to HA and PuGvG on a regular basis. I never tried to start PvPing in HA, because that's a stupid idea. Unless you already have the friends and connections to get into teams, it's worthless, as trying to PuG HA is the stupidest idea ever. I gained all of my skills and connections from TAing basically, along with some older PvE friends who moved on to PvP.

I don't expect anyone in HA to take an unranked person, but I don't think that an unranked person should be trying to PuG HA in the first place. Play with friends until you get to the point where you do have your bambi.

Snow Bunny · Sep 06, 2007, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

funny how all the "leet" PvP players can't kill a few heros.....also how you whine that nobody plays PvP anymore and things need to be changed for more to play but then vote to remove the only way some people can play (heros) because they don't have enough guildies interested in PvP

I'm not "leet" in the slightest, but I think I can speak here for quite a few people.

WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY AGAINST HEROES.

It's not fun, it's not challenging, it's not satisfying to win, it's annoying to lose (because you lost to AI, not someone's skill that you can learn from), it's easy to beat after a bit of coordination, and generally, it makes HA (still my favorite pvp venue) a crappy place to play.

They're not people. I don't care that you can't get into HA otherwise. If you can't get a bambi, it's your fault. It's a learning curve, and perhaps it's not a newbie friendly environment, but all that means is that you get some experience and MAKE SOME FRIENDS.

/endrant

Mirage Isnt Emo · Sep 06, 2007, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I'm not "leet" in the slightest, but I think I can speak here for quite a few people.

WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY AGAINST HEROES.

It's not fun, it's not challenging, it's not satisfying to win, it's annoying to lose (because you lost to AI, not someone's skill that you can learn from), it's easy to beat after a bit of coordination, and generally, it makes HA (still my favorite pvp venue) a crappy place to play.

They're not people. I don't care that you can't get into HA otherwise. If you can't get a bambi, it's your fault. It's a learning curve, and perhaps it's not a newbie friendly environment, but all that means is that you get some experience and MAKE SOME FRIENDS.

/endrant

With the population of guildwars circling the drain, I do not think itd be smart to just go out an ban them. Restricting them, fine, but an all out ban would just not be smart. The second the 100k tournaments end, this game will have nothing left unless a GWNC is announced... The only thing that is leaving pvp alive in this game is people want the rewards from the monthly tourneys..

Legendary Battousai · Sep 06, 2007, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Ok, (this is aimed at Andrew Patrick, and anyone who is going with the argument that Heroes destroy the concept of Players vs. Players because it adds an Artificial Inteligence variable), do you agree archers, knights, the bodyguard and Guild Lord run on AI? Its a part of GvG, and it will never change; Andrew Patrick, out of all people, as my "PvP PR", should understand that and agree.

Now, lets do this again, do you agree Henchmen run on an AI, and have been a part of the game since the start? You're all not stupid, of course they are using an AI system like the rest.

Ok heres the hard part: do you realize that nobody has ever complained about Henchmen and Guild Hall NPCs in the entirety of Guild Wars that played this game competitively? Pretty sure nobody ever has, or will complain about this: its a part of the game, people accept its existence in PvP, and nobody questions it.

Then allow me to extend this one more time: Heroes run on AI. People have never complained about the AI before because of "moral" issues dealing with PvP really being Player Versus Player. Now people are complaining about it.

Lets list the possible causes for one's opinion of AI to change:
1, They got destroyed by it.
2, They got tired of fighting it because it is too easy to beat.
3, They have never played this game competitively, and are new to the game, not realizing AI has always been a part of PvP. [Rifts and their swarms, Priests, Zaishen, Flame Sents, Ghostly Hero, Guild Lord, Bodyguards, Archers, etc.]

Lets list the problems with heroes [differences between Heroes compaired with all other "units" using AI]:
1, They use Taint too well.
2, They are controlled by Humans.
3, They have Skills chosen by Players.

So with this data, I am pretty sure its an easy conclusion to come to that people who hate heroes hate it for a reason so miniscule that changing it for the small minority of people disliking it, none of which play this game competitively, that it would bewilder any sane person as to why A.Net would spend the time and effort removing heroes from PvP because of one little skill heroes use too powerfully (taint). Instead, the hero AI, like what has happened to their Death Nova capabilities, can be nerfed concerning that one skill.

Possibility number two, which I hope nobody here falls under, is that they have never played this game competitively, and accidentally GvG'd and were destroyed by heroes, then came to Guru to post in this thread because of their first impressions of a problem that isn't big at all.

Possibility number three, people dislike heroes because it takes away from "Player vs Player" because they do not realize its a HUMAN player controling the hero.

Possibility number four, people dislike heroes because a human controls what skills they bring. This is retarded; this one difference between heroes and everything else fixes so many problems with Guild Wars [namely, activity].

So heres my conclusion: any reason one can come up with to remove heroes are simply not even worth the effort because the reasons all stims from irrational dislike of heroes.

Despozblehero · Sep 06, 2007, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

So with this data, I am pretty sure its an easy conclusion to come to that people who hate heroes hate it for a reason so miniscule that changing it for the small minority of people disliking it, none of which play this game competitively, that it would bewilder any sane person as to why A.Net would spend the time and effort removing heroes from PvP because of one little skill heroes use too powerfully (taint). Instead, the hero AI, like what has happened to their Death Nova capabilities, can be nerfed concerning that one skill.

...

Possibility number three, people dislike heroes because it takes away from "Player vs Player" because they do not realize its a HUMAN player controling the hero.

Ok, so you say its time and effort to remove them from current PvP, but to keep them there you have to balance skills JUST FOR THEM, change AI JUST FOR THEM, and deal with any and all possible bugs that can and will happen with them eventually given enough people doing the many strange and wonderful things that they do... AAAAANNNNNDDD take care of the human element as well without the 2 conflicting... need I say more? Its been hard enough doing that for 1 set of players (the REAL people)... and I doubt its much work to remove Hero's in comparison... select the line of code that lets you add a hero to the party in GvG/HA and /delete... yeah oversimplification but keeping Hero's in PvP is NOT going to be something easy for the devs to do... and honestly considering the past I don't want them to have to worry about that kind of crap and stick with whats important... actual human player abilities/skills, one step at a time, get that right 1st, don't compound problems.

You split hairs about the GL and his henchies being AI like Hero's but its the people in that match that you face that are your groups main focus and the GL and his cronies are just a side objective in the PvP environment after completion of the main objective, I mean a heads up annihilation with no other objective would probably get stale long before the current system with the GL, so they have a little "capture the flag/GL" thing at the end and during which youd only be able to do after killing the other team to a point where they can no longer defend. Hero's are in no way similar, it actually moves the focus on AI from a secondary objective into a primary one (kinda PvEish to me...). Whats the difference if the thing looks like Koss then or a Mursaat or a Charr? Its the human element that people want from PvP and despite your claims to controlling Hero's being the same as another actual player on the team, well its not... some of the time you'll have to rely on its AI to auto a bit while you do what you have to do (and if your like most players it will be most of the time with the flag it a forget it style), it is just physically impossible to do 2 things at the exact same time. you can plan ahead and move and play tactically but Koss will never change or get better.

Your main argument for Hero's is theyre controlled by players, so its not really AI, but usually they're not, you know as well as I that the majority of people who have used Hero's put them in skill spammer slots and they pretty much keeps hands off unless they unlock their res skill or something, you cannot deny that your average player will do just that even if you yourself dont, which is more learning to cope with flaws in the AI than actual PvP skill. You seem to value a persons ability to multi-task skill bars, thats great, but theres a place for it, HvH, if every PvP player enjoyed that sort of thing they'd all go there... as it is i imagine most, like myself, do not... not my thing at all.

You can say that the people who do not like Hero's are the minority but after reading this thread you and another person are the only real die hard Hero defenders splitting tiny hairs to keep them in PvP, ignoring any other ideas, when multiple times in the past they've been a problem that was at the very least annoying. Looking at what is right in front of my face and reading this thread it seems YOU are the minority, you seem to hold the HvH play style in high esteem and yet say you don't want to play there... but then again what you're playing against doesn't matter by your own admission, human or AI is no difference, so theres no reason you shouldn't go there and have a blast and leave the other PvP formats Hero free, like they were designed to be since Prophecies (factions pvp is irrelevant to this discussion as GvG and HA are the main focus). If you love the Hero party play, the only argument to not playing in HvH I can think of is "I dont like altar capping/maps" or "theres only 4 on a team there" or "rewards not worth it," well ask them to do something to HvH then, don't mess with everything else in PvP just to make HvH what it should be to the people who like that sort of play (i.e. people like you who happen to like controlling and fighting with and against Hero's).

RhanoctJocosa · Sep 06, 2007, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Lol. Why would the old players come back to guild wars if anet did mega update of guru child dreams? No, old players left because guess what they got tired of the game. Not balance, not Ha change, not even heroway. There are even less players and more afk top 100 guilds now after the nerf/updates then they were before. You think that will change if Izzy stayed up to 1pm trying to plz ever torch baring idiot after knowing not one thing he did on their behalf will add not a single district in HA? Izzy could do double fame weekends every months still get paid, and get more thank you mail then hate mail. Honestly, world pvp is what in GW2 who is still taking pvp this seriously?

I said "maybe" and "some". Those that quit because they were tired of GW, obviously, will not return. But those that had enough, and there are many, of ANet's failed attempts to work with PvP *may* *maybe* *possibly* return. But you seem to know these players pretty well so I guess we should all take your word for it.

Just be quiet?

Mithie · Sep 06, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

The fact that [Ryuk] is in champ point land doesn't speak as much about how much heroes are overpowered as much as how much the top 100 guilds rely on double D anthem, triple aegis, wards, SoD rather than work on handling half-assed splits effectively and just plain not sucking when not in 75% block rate God mode.

Facing a split effectively means you have to not suck. [Ryuk] winning so many champ points means there are just that many teams out there that can't play without every goddamn defense skill in the game.

Hate to say it, but I agree with mirage on this issue.

Legendary Battousai · Sep 06, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despozblehero

Ok, so you say its time and effort to remove them from current PvP, but to keep them there you have to balance skills JUST FOR THEM, change AI JUST FOR THEM, and deal with any and all possible bugs that can and will happen with them eventually given enough people doing the many strange and wonderful things that they do... AAAAANNNNNDDD take care of the human element as well without the 2 conflicting... need I say more?

You split hairs about the GL and his henchies being AI like Hero's but its the people in that match that you face that are your groups main focus and the GL and his cronies are just a side objective in the PvP environment after completion of the main objective. RUN ON SENTENCE; LEARN ENGLISH. A PERIOD GOES THERE.

Your main argument for Hero's is theyre controlled by players, so its not really AI, but usually they're not, you know as well as I that the majority of people who have used Hero's put them in skill spammer slots and they pretty much keeps hands off unless they unlock their res skill or something... ANOTHER RUN ON SENTENCE

You can say that the people who do not like Hero's are the minority but after reading this thread you and another person are the only real die hard Hero defenders splitting tiny hairs to keep them in PvP, ignoring any other ideas, when multiple times in the past they've been a problem that was at the very least annoying. Looking at what is right in front of my face and reading this thread it seems YOU are the minority,

Ok I'm going to be honest: reading your post, which I havent, and won't, is a waste of time. I've read the first sentence of your arguments (flames, it seems like) and heres my response to each of them.

1. If you make a mistake on lets say, writing an essay. You misspell one word. According to what you've said in that sentence, I should throw the paper out, not erase, and fix the extremely small problem. If you find that to be efficient, then so be it: that would make you a retard.

2. I honestly don't care about the guild lord, NPCs or AI. I only bring it up to counter the arguments which claims that Heroes ruin Players versus Players "spirit" because they fail to realize they are surrounded by AI in the first place.

3. Yes, people don't control their heroes. They are bad. Who cares about bad people? They choose to play something which doesn't work. I don't post threads saying Xen Of Onslaught [just using as an example because its the first that comes to mind; no offense to XoO] needs to be banned from Guild Wars because they run incoherent, defensive builds which do not progress GvG. Likewise, it seems even more retarded to post about heroes, which when they aren't even ran efficiently, are so easy to beat its pathetic. And if you dislike heroes because they are AI and you think there should be no AI in gvg, refer to #2.

4.

Quote:

You can say that the people who do not like Hero's are the minority

Never said that. If 50 million people say a stupid thing, it is still a stupid thing. With your logic, because I am the "minority" it makes me automatically wrong? (sorry I accidentally read that part of your post). People have came up with ideas, and so have I. Just because your in opposition of my ideas does not mean that I am wrong for showing why your [they aren't even yours, so I guess I should say "everyone who I've disagreed with" ideas are redundant, illogical, inefficient or counter-productive, while criticizing that I found a counter argument for each of them.

Simply: A.Net should be fix the small little things wrong with heroes; removing them would solve nothing, make the game die at a faster rate, and be throwing a piece of paper away because of one misspelled word.