Curse

moko · Sep 03, 2007, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

The problem is the "Heroway" Build.

i think this comment should win the thread; the hero hate is mainly coming from buttonmashing builds that the AI can abuse properly -- but what about other builds?

yes, in some cases players DO actually have to control their heroes.

still, i think heroes should be limited to 1-2, mainly to kill keep "THE heroway" under control a bit more.

Quote:

Wrong, heroes are a nice replacement for when there are no players (like 4 in the morning when some of us play), or only idiots who would end up wasting your time anyway.

because you ABSOLUTELY want to kill your rating at 4 in the morning because YOU are bored? why don't you just go TA? HB?

yes; heroway takes away players from the game, don't argue against it.

Despozblehero · Sep 03, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

If you really care, and want to show how awesome you are at controlling Heros go HvH... thats why its there... as for the rest of us we like playing against human players, and even though the current system has NPC's, its no excuse. My main focus is on the human team, npc's come secondary, I dont want that focus to be directed at koss or olias or dunkoro, if I did Id HvH or PvE, no I'm here for something different, and something that up until the introduction of NF was fine the way it was and needed no help from heros. If youre really uber leet then you dont care about heros at all(you actually probably laugh at them), and if youre defending them tooth and nail splitting tiny hairs and ignoring the reasoning behind others opinions just because its not what YOU want, well then as a point farmer your opinion doesnt really matter... you wouldnt know REAL fun in PvP if it bit you in the ...

Alex the Great · Sep 03, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

omg you whiney "high-end" pvpers are so stupid!!
anyone that uses a gimmic build is somehow cheating because YOUR amazing build can't keep up

and now you are losing to npc's so the other player must be some "nub pve cheater" that dosen't respect your uberness

Mirage Isnt Emo · Sep 03, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex the Great

omg you whiney "high-end" pvpers are so stupid!!
anyone that uses a gimmic build is somehow cheating because YOUR amazing build can't keep up

and now you are losing to npc's so the other player must be some "nub pve cheater" that dosen't respect your uberness

Where you are wrong is, almost none of the people complaining about heroes are high end pvpers... They whine because they as players cant keep up, not even their build...

Servant of Kali · Sep 03, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

the hero hate is mainly coming from buttonmashing builds that the AI can abuse properly

Actually, that's the drop that spilled the cut. Thing is, people dont (generally speaking) buy online games to PvP with AI, since offline games with AI are much better in most cases I can think of.

Now, meeting 1 heroway rarely is OK, personally I wouldn't mind, if such heroway is weak (maybe not as much as henchies but weak nevertheless). Now, the problem at hand is twofold:
1) overpowered hero builds
2) which cause an abnormal increase in the number of Guilds using heroes.

In either case, heroes should be a no no in GvG.

Quote:

yes, in some cases players DO actually have to control their heroes.

So do they in Hero Battles. Make a poll on how many people in this forum consider Hero Battles serious PvP. Exactly.

Quote:

still, i think heroes should be limited to 1-2, mainly to kill keep "THE heroway" under control a bit more.

Allowing even one hero means you can run Tained on a hero along with other skills like Death Nova and Bone Minions. Which means that a Hero makes enemy team overpowered which is NOT how it should be.

It literary stimulates LESS players playing and more heroes in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirage isnt Emo

They whine because they as players cant keep up, not even their build...

Can I ask you a straightforward question? Is it lack of IQ that prevents you from understanding that main reason against Heroes is that we like playing against humans more than AI? It has been said 30x already in the thread (go count it) and after these 30x you're still not getting it, and keep accusing others how they suck in PvP and if they didn't suck Heroes would be OK. Then you go on saying how you only care about champion points so if you fight AI it doesnt matter. Pls go play Hero Battles, farm Commander rank. We will all be better off, you as well.

God Apprentice · Sep 03, 2007, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

You fight NPCs in a guild hall without complaining

Keep in mind that these NPC's that are in GvG:

Cannot be controlled by a player.
Cannot have custom skillbars.
Do not keep up Death Nova (which got nerfed for Heroes) and Tainted Flesh/Minion Factory in the span of 2 seconds.

Can't compare NPCs to Heroes. Sorry.

There's a place for Heroes. It's called HERO Battles.

Mirage Isnt Emo · Sep 03, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Like I dont know, the way I see it is, I'd rather PLAY with all 8 human players, but what I play against really doesnt matter. Play a gvg and ask yourself, which would you rather face, 2-3 AI characters (Not necros) or a team with 2-3 aegis, ward against melee, defensive anthem, shields up, watch yourself, and shield of deflection. Now you will probably ask why this matter if the case is heroes... If you want to talk about a boring game, play against that and try hitting something. Those together are far more broken then heroes are, and those should be fixed way before heroes should even be touched.

Quote:

Then you go on saying how you only care about champion points so if you fight AI it doesnt matter. Pls go play Hero Battles, farm Commander rank. We will all be better off, you as well.

here is where you are an idiot. No teams but Ryuk run heroes that are in champ points, and if they do they suck so bad I dont see them. Tell me, how am I getting champ points off of AI? I dont know if you understand the state of pvp, but it is dying... All those top teams that you think are there, they arent. The thing is, rating doesnt go up very fast, so even a team like [Cow] who has been afk for around like 4-5 months, is still rank 33 on the ladder? A lot of teams dont play, and a lot of players would rather play WoW then worry about this game. Now let me guess, you will try to blame heroes for this? That would be laughable.

BlackEagle · Sep 03, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirage Isnt Emo

Like I dont know, the way I see it is, I'd rather PLAY with all 8 human players, but what I play against really doesnt matter. Play a gvg and ask yourself, which would you rather face, 2-3 AI characters (Not necros) or a team with 2-3 aegis, ward against melee, defensive anthem, shields up, watch yourself, and shield of deflection. Now you will probably ask why this matter if the case is heroes... If you want to talk about a boring game, play against that and try hitting something. Those together are far more broken then heroes are, and those should be fixed way before heroes should even be touched.

So because there are other things in the game that need to be improved, nothing else should be changed in the mean time? That's the most ridiculous thing yet. I'm sorry, but do you really think that anet should only work on one thing at a time?

Mirage Isnt Emo · Sep 03, 2007, 10:47 PM // 22:47

With how slow anet reacts, which do you think has top priority? A game mechanic that is obviously broken, or the opinions of people who think heroes breaks pvp more then anything else. Honestly I could care less about playing with heroes, because to be honest they arent that great, but there are people who can only play with them. Hell, sometimes I wish people would run heroes more... I hate signing up for an AT and at most there are 10 teams remaining after the first round... Guess how many are around after the 3rd?

Legendary Battousai · Sep 04, 2007, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Apprentice

Keep in mind that these NPC's that are in GvG:

Cannot be controlled by a player.
Cannot have custom skillbars.
Do not keep up Death Nova (which got nerfed for Heroes) and Tainted Flesh/Minion Factory in the span of 2 seconds.

Can't compare NPCs to Heroes. Sorry.

There's a place for Heroes. It's called HERO Battles.

Don't feel like hero battling ^^

Did I say Heroes < Archers?
No, we all know Heroes have better bars and are controlled by humans , which take the AI element away from them. As I said, Tainted is overpowered on a hero, and thus, the heroes' AI should be nerfed. Because ONE skill is overpowered, removing all heroes from GvG seems like an over-reaction. Its like destroying an entire villiage because someone from that village insulted you. Theres tons of skills, if one of them is overpowered on a hero, I don't see what the huge problem is. Sure, less people may play in that GvG, but the GvG would have never happened if heroes did not exist. Sitting in my guild hall with 4 members online, when an AT comes along, I can either 1, do nothing or 2, run 3 heroes and get 1 guest. 4 Guests take the point of GvGing away, and I refuse to GvG with half people that arent even in my guild opposed to heroes. Not only that, it is nearly impossible to get that many people who don't suck on their given roles. Thus, Heroes are a solution, not a problem.

Shmanka · Sep 04, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Players..........

You win the thread.

Yue · Sep 04, 2007, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Hero's are annoying to play against.

wuzzman · Sep 04, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

anyone who cares about HA this much hasn't spent enough time checking party search and local chat.

lol this discussion gets even stupider, Taint overpowered on a hero LOL. Diversion + Enchant removal = bye bye taint flesh. LOL, any decent spike can bring down a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing hero who can't kite. Dead/diverted taint necro = Dead heroway. End of thread.

Ec]-[oMaN · Sep 04, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

any decent spike can bring down a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing hero who can't kite.

Actually the heroes kite better than 85% of GW ^^

wuzzman · Sep 04, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Actually the heroes kite better than 85% of GW ^^

you mean standing perfectly still as SH, Searing heat, and various other aoe pile ontop of you, and then waiting till your just at half health to get out the way...yep that describes 85% of guilds wars

Andrew Patrick · Sep 04, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

I think some of you are misunderstanding each other. Some people do not want heroes in PvP because they feel they give an advantage. Feel free to debate that issue. But others are against heroes in PvP simply because they feel PvP should be people vs people. That means whether the hero teams are unbeatable, or completely easy to roll, they still do not want to face them in PvP. You can argue the first point on either side, but the second is really personal preference, and it's hard to say someones opinion is "right" or "wrong."

Also, keep in mind that you can try to disprove other peoples statements all day long, but thats not nearly as valuable and influential as proving your own to be true.

Servant of Kali · Sep 04, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

and it's hard to say someones opinion is "right" or "wrong."

Hard, but not impossible.

ie,
- should the highest form of Player versus Player in a quasi-MMO game be infested with AI vs AI fights? No.
- is it OK that low-end and/or specialized forms of PvP include AI vs AI fights? Yes.

Quote:

Also, keep in mind that you can try to disprove other peoples statements all day long, but thats not nearly as valuable and influential as proving your own to be true.

It's just another side of the coin. If you prove that *all* points someone else typed are wrong and flawed (such as those of Battousai) then it's safe to disregard all following statements of that person. By disproving that, one is also proving the opposite to be true, in an indirect way.

Allow Heroes only in unrated matches and scrimmage.

Andrew Patrick · Sep 04, 2007, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

It's just another side of the coin. If you prove that *all* points someone else typed are wrong and flawed (such as those of Battousai) then it's safe to disregard all following statements of that person. By disproving that, one is also proving the opposite to be true, in an indirect way.

That is assuming that by disproving your opposition you are immediately right. That neglects the very real and likely occurrence when both you and the person you are arguing with on a forum are wrong, or perhaps, both partially right.

Sorry for going off-topic, I just want everyone to be free to share their opinion.

Ms Utena Tenjou · Sep 05, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

every time something new comes along.. there is someone else who thinks it should not happen.. sometimes hero's are good for Unranked people (like me) who want to learn about Pvp but no one will take you.. hence the hero's. There good as people and they don't bitch or moan about things... OMHO

TheOneMephisto · Sep 05, 2007, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ms Utena Tenjou

every time something new comes along.. there is someone else who thinks it should not happen.. sometimes hero's are good for Unranked people (like me) who want to learn about Pvp but no one will take you.. hence the hero's. There good as people and they don't bitch or moan about things... OMHO

But your not learning about PvP, that's the problem. Your learning a much lower-level, degenerate form of PvP. Sometimes people forget that learning to PvP isn't just starting to win, it's actually acquiring the skills and a huge part of acquiring the connections and getting into the community. Playing with heroes eliminates a huge amount of skills that you really will need to get into high-level PvP (all the coordination, a ton of the tactics, knowing how and when to push and back off, maneuvering, body-blocking, it goes on and on), and also manages to cut down on your potential connections pool ensuring that you won't be able to play with real people even if you wanted to. And then it also has the side effect that if you actually succeed with heroes, your chance of playing with real players decreases even more, as any decent player will look down on you.

Don't think that learning PvP with heroes is PvP, because all it is is a crutch that will make your entrance into the PvP scene much longer and more painful.