Curse

BlackEagle · Sep 02, 2007, 12:42 PM // 12:42

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Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

Good enough for me

What I meant by that was you haven't justified those reasons much beyond a clearly selfish reasoning that you play with them. The bad thing about heroes is how they can be abused, with skill bars etc. The good things about heroes is that it allows people to get into gvg without necessarily needing 8 people online (which can be hard to achieve for less serious guilds) But, that one good thing about them is exactly the same as henchman, yet you haven't refuted that point or made any comment on it. Basically, there is no good argument for keeping heroes, as what heroes allow you to do is the same as henchmen, except for abusing them.

And as I've already said, it shouldn't be whether my guild, your guild or anybody else can beat them, it should be whether they should be playing it in the first place, and really they shouldn't. Saying that you should learn to be like top guilds that can beat it, does that mean that orignal rit spike wasn't overpowered because top guilds could beat it?

Servant of Kali · Sep 02, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

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Originally Posted by BlackEagle

The good things about heroes is that it allows people to get into gvg without necessarily needing 8 people online (which can be hard to achieve for less serious guilds)

Actually that's an urban myth. The problem with people is they have no motivation to play. Even a guild with tons of people online will still need 8 people who will choose GvG over farming not because they love farming but because there's some sense to it, there's something they gain and accomplish.

Getting 8 players from a Guild, Alliance, and Friends list isn't that difficult. The problem is, no stimulans.

Check that link i pasted on a page before this one. The point is, Heroes don't solve anything. Heroes are an INDICATION of a problem and actually a salt on a wound. The illusion that heroes do help is just that - an illusion. In practice, when you play GvGs out of top10, all you're gonna see is people running heroway template on purpose and having fun beating stronger teams with overpowered setup. My guild uses Nomad guild map because they like it, and you have no idea how hard it is to play against heroway. Really, they just teleport there, mow through the base and it's gameover. You don't even have time for a split, and you can't TAB through their players to kill key ones because you gotta tab through 20 people back and forth.

Mirage Isnt Emo · Sep 02, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Nomads is probably the worst split map in the game... If you have an SoR runner, you start in 3 archers, which can be enough to pressure most people out. You probably shouldnt get a map just on looks and expect to play. Nomads isle takes a lot of tactics that a lot of low rank guilds can not call. Map placement is key and it is gamebreaking. I dont see how you can even compare heroes to henchman, and just because heroes are better doesnt mean they are broken... I don't know if you know what henchman use for skills, but they only carry 7 skills, i dont see how that is abusable. The monk only has 5 skills, one being a hardrez... Wtf do you expect people to run? Their bars are not even on par with what can be run in gvg, and not being able to click their skills makes it that much gayer.
Heroes are not game breaking, I dont see how you people would be having problems when all you have to do IS SPIKE THEM. Their AI isnt that great to make them superior to the average player.

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Getting 8 players from a Guild, Alliance, and Friends list isn't that difficult. The problem is, no stimulans.

Getting GOOD players in a guild is a bit harder at the moment then you think it is...

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you can't TAB through their players to kill key ones because you gotta tab through 20 people back and forth.

This is slightly your problem then, if you dont have the game awareness to click on people to call targets, what do you do at vod with all the archers, stand there and tab?

Servant of Kali · Sep 02, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

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Originally Posted by Mirage isnt Emo

Their AI isnt that great to make them superior to the average player.

You might want to reconsider this. If Hero AI isn't better than that of an average player, how come PvE groups with Heroes plow through PvE while those with average players do much much much worse

Don't get me wrong, in PvP Hero AI isn't that great but some hero builds (those overpowered ones) are. And in general, no one wants to fight against AI, otherwise we'd be playing Zaishen challenge. So this isn't a matter of whether you can beat heroes or not but whether there's a point in fighting them (there isn't).

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Getting GOOD players in a guild is a bit harder at the moment then you think it is...

But you just said Heroes are not better than avg player so all you need are average and not good players

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This is slightly your problem then, if you dont have the game awareness to click on people to call targets, what do you do at vod with all the archers, stand there and tab?

Considering I played Mesmer and Ranger interrupter quite a lot, and in 4v4 I can interrupt rez sigs on ALL 4 players with a ranger, I'd say I'm not that bad at TABing.

VoD is different, Archers are static, and predictable, and not controlled by humans.

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ou probably shouldnt get a map just on looks and expect to play. Nomads isle takes a lot of tactics that a lot of low rank guilds can not call.

I agree with all you said about Nomad.. personally, I like the map, but IMO my guild isn't good enough to exploit all the strenghts, I have a feeling many of em don't know how to utilize quicksand for instance in their favor. However, they seem to be getting better with time so it's good. Steeper learning curve is good. Nomad is quite good for many tactics, for instance you can totally ignore NPCs at VoD and head straight for GLord

BlackEagle · Sep 02, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

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Originally Posted by Mirage Isnt Emo

I dont see how you can even compare heroes to henchman, and just because heroes are better doesnt mean they are broken... I don't know if you know what henchman use for skills, but they only carry 7 skills, i dont see how that is abusable. The monk only has 5 skills, one being a hardrez...

As I said a few times earlier in the thread, giving them a better bar wouldn't hurt. But, you're saying that it means you can play when previously you wouldn't have been able to. That's the same with henchmen. Whereas, there is no taint henchman who you can abuse in heroway.

Despozblehero · Sep 02, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

There is still no good reason to use Heros over real people.

If you rely on Heros for anything but filler spots youre terribad and fail at the game, you have no social skills and cannot effectively use your Guild, Alliance or Friends List, and if you do only use them for fillers you shouldnt care if theyre removed. Youve already seen they can be exploited for junk and dont want to see that crap in competitive play. Itd make more sense to be asking for a better rounded henchie bars rather than defending some BS Hero junk. But even then if everyone else but 7 people in your leet guild suck maybe you should help em out a bit or something more productive than running with fillers....

Legendary Battousai · Sep 02, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

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Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

You might want to reconsider this. If Hero AI isn't better than that of an average player, how come PvE groups with Heroes plow through PvE while those with average players do much much much worse

PvErs ball up in AoE, Bad GvGers ball up in AoE. Thus one can conclude bad GvGers are PvErs who ball up and die to heroes, thus call them overpowered.

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Don't get me wrong, in PvP Hero AI isn't that great but some hero builds (those overpowered ones) are. And in general, no one wants to fight against AI, otherwise we'd be playing Zaishen challenge. So this isn't a matter of whether you can beat heroes or not but whether there's a point in fighting them (there isn't).

Theres humans in GvG hero builds. And hell, theres archers, knights, bodyguards and a Guild Lord on a full human team.

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Considering I played Mesmer and Ranger interrupter quite a lot, and in 4v4 I can interrupt rez sigs on ALL 4 players with a ranger, I'd say I'm not that bad at TABing.

thats BS on so many levels; 1, if they are using a sig, theres only 3 or less people to interupt; 2, if your on a mesmer interupter, your not interupting res sigs (unless your bad and run PD in TA), 3, If people use their sigs at the same time, your not going to interupt 3 of them, 4, The only situation this is possible is if the players are beyond horrible - even worse than PvE AI. Thus, using them as an example is pointless.

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VoD is different, Archers are static, and predictable, and not controlled by humans.

And heroes arent static and predictable? Im sorry but if you can't predict when that N/Rts going to hit the taint button, or overextend, or do something stupid, you have no room to talk about high level PvP. And as a low level PvPer, you have no room to call something overpowered because your bad at PvP and don't know how to counter a simple build. If top level gvgers came to this thread, calling Heroes overpowered, I'd concider what they have said. You are an example of someone who just doesn't know how to play competitively, so anything competitive should not concern you. Its like a PvEr commenting on why Reward Points ruin the game - chances are - they will never EVER see someone with armor unlocked by Reward Points.

Mirage Isnt Emo · Sep 02, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

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Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

You might want to reconsider this. If Hero AI isn't better than that of an average player, how come PvE groups with Heroes plow through PvE while those with average players do much much much worse

That is because I do not consider people who are playing pve to be average players, unless they understand all aspects of the game. Not putting down pvers, but I was referring to average gvg players... generally around the top 50-100 range, maybe higher. The necros are ungodly with their skills, i will give you that, but other then that heroes do not break the game. I care just as much beating a heroway team as a normal team, because quite frankly I care about rating and champ points...

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And in general, no one wants to fight against AI, otherwise we'd be playing Zaishen challenge.

So your first example is about pve, and then you say "no one wants to fight against AI" because you know, pve isnt AI... It seems the majority of GW wants to play against AI by what you are saying...

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But you just said Heroes are not better than avg player so all you need are average and not good players

My standards for average players might be higher then yours... I consider average most people who play their position to a top 50 level... These players are hard to come by because even ladder play is god awful easy...

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Considering I played Mesmer and Ranger interrupter quite a lot, and in 4v4 I can interrupt rez sigs on ALL 4 players with a ranger, I'd say I'm not that bad at TABing.

Because you know, a 4v4 situation is the same thing as a gvg situation... Because you know every 4v4 team has shields up, Def anthem, Aegis, SoD, etc. And why would you even mention playing mesmer if your example is interupting rez sigs?

BlackEagle · Sep 03, 2007, 12:23 AM // 00:23

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Originally Posted by Mirage Isnt Emo

I care just as much beating a heroway team as a normal team, because quite frankly I care about rating and champ points...

If that is the way the game is for you, then great, but for most people, the actual experience of playing the game is what is fun, not seeing a couple of numbers appear on their screen. To me, there is zero fun beating on AI, which is fine as long as it's a quick and easy match and then you can get on to playing proprly again. But when it's a long, difficult, hard fought match which you might end up losing against AI which are ridiculously good at certain things, it is kinda boring.

A lot of this thread has just been people bashing people who disagree with their views, and what it basically boils down to is does allowing people to play when they might not have been able to anyway (which they could have done with henchmen anyway, especially if they improved their bars a little) worth wasting people's time and meaning they don't enjoy the game.

Mirage Isnt Emo · Sep 03, 2007, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Either way you are playing gvg, how is there any less way to enjoy the game? The spirit pooping build is dumb even if it is run by human players.. I mean the only excitement I get out of beating teams is top 10 teams... So the other teams honestly dont matter if they are human or heroes... Either way you are playing against 8 opponents. Like I hate to say it but I guess the average player is bad, because I dont see how people have problems with heroes... They use their skills by math, which means a lot of their skills can go to waste, while a smart player can use all their skills to certain circumstances.

BlackEagle · Sep 03, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

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Originally Posted by Mirage Isnt Emo

Like I hate to say it but I guess the average player is bad, because I dont see how people have problems with heroes... They use their skills by math, which means a lot of their skills can go to waste, while a smart player can use all their skills to certain circumstances.

But that's the problem with them, they play some things badly, but things such as taints etc. they run better than humans, because they run it mathematically. That's the problem, and as I've said, whether your guild, or my guild or any guild can beat it shouldn't matter, what should matter is it meaning a lot of people in the game lose and become disillusioned with pvp. Because, not everyone is good atm, but if they give up playing because they're fed up getting beaten by heroway because they aren't yet good enough to beat it, how are they going to improve and make the game more competitive again?

Legendary Battousai · Sep 03, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

fighting heroes isnt just fighting AI, its fighting a human's strategy as to what to do with them. Thus I don't understand your arguement as to "fighting AI is no fun". You fight NPCs in a guild hall without complaining - purhapse its fun because there are humans also on the map - but the same goes for Heroes. I think GvG would be fun with 8 people or even 10 people.

BlackEagle · Sep 03, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

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Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

fighting heroes isnt just fighting AI, its fighting a human's strategy as to what to do with them. Thus I don't understand your arguement as to "fighting AI is no fun". You fight NPCs in a guild hall without complaining - purhapse its fun because there are humans also on the map - but the same goes for Heroes. I think GvG would be fun with 8 people or even 10 people.

The difference is that every match you face the npcs, but they're an extended part of the match, extended part of the strategy. They are always going to be there, you always face the team + npcs, whether you have to fight a bunch of npcs to get to killing npcs is a different matter. Also, npcs don't run tainted and minion master.

Has your argument really come down to heroes should be allowed because there are already npcs in the battle?

Snow Bunny · Sep 03, 2007, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Battousai.

I am sure you are a very good player.

Nevertheless

There is no good reason to use heroes.

It's bullshit

/end

Servant of Kali · Sep 03, 2007, 07:16 AM // 07:16

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Originally Posted by Battousai

Theres humans in GvG hero builds. And hell, theres archers, knights, bodyguards and a Guild Lord on a full human team.

So? They are static and totally predictable, and really a no issue to me. It's the players I fight against most of the time. Besides, just because there are some NPCs in GvG doesn't mean everything needs to be AI. That's the whole point, there's a healthy amount of NPCs and unhealthy amount. Heroes bring unhealthy amounts.

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You fight NPCs in a guild hall without complaining - purhapse its fun because there are humans also on the map

OK so if i hit you in the head real hard it would be unfair. But according to you, shooting you in the head would be the same, because it's unfair as well. Now, why would we bother ourselves with gradation and some details... If someone steals 1$ from you, why didn't he steal a whole car. I mean, to you, it's the same.

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if your on a mesmer interupter, your not interupting res sigs (unless your bad and run PD in TA), 3, If people use their sigs at the same time, your not going to interupt 3 of them, 4, The only situation this is possible is if the players are beyond horrible - even worse than PvE AI. Thus, using them as an example is pointless.

Read more carefully; i said ranger. Yes im going to prevent all of them from rezing. No, those players are not horrible, but there's something called Battle Environment of which you know nothing of, because you opinions are all theory.

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You are an example of someone who just doesn't know how to play competitively, so anything competitive should not concern you.

*yawn*, so aside of argumentum ad hominem do you have any valid argument in this whole discussion?

The rest of your post is crap just like those previous ones.

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Originally Posted by Mirage isnt Emo

Not putting down pvers, but I was referring to average gvg players... generally around the top 50-100 range, maybe higher.

That's contradiction in terms. top50 range isn't average GvG player, not even top100 range. To determine average GvG player you have to take into account 10000 guilds who GvG, exlude those who GvG once upon a blue moon, and take into account those who GvG more frequently. As such you will still find that top100 is nowhere near average GvG player.

What you wanted to say is that Heroes are not stronger than the best GvG players. Yeah, I agree.

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So your first example is about pve, and then you say "no one wants to fight against AI" because you know, pve isnt AI...

Non sequitur.

I don't see your point here really, I used two different examples and they have no causality. It's like saying "The glass is full of gasoline" and "People like drinking from glasses " and then you go and conclude how my example is incorrect people people don't like drinking gasoline.

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My standards for average players might be higher then yours...

That's because to me average is average, as in the middle between good and bad. To you average is "not quite an elite player but close to there".

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And why would you even mention playing mesmer if your example is interupting rez sigs?

Non sequitur.

It's like me saying "why do you mention average players if they don't win GvG tournaments". It seems to make sense at the first glance but has nothing to do with the discussion itself.

Because mesmer interrupts too. Doesn't interrupt rez sigs nor did I say anywhere it does.

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because I dont see how people have problems with heroes...

You know, taking a bit less of an egocentric point of view wouldn't hurt. Just because heroes are not a problem for your top10 guild and for your smurf guilds doesnt mean there's no problem. I for one don't have a problem with PvE being 2x as strong as it is now, but I wouldn't want it because I take into consideration other players too.

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So the other teams honestly dont matter if they are human or heroes...

Then our discussion is pretty much over. You're OK with beating Heroes because you only want champion points. To me such thing is utterly useless, if i cared about it i'd play PvE and farm. I want fun, and have fun playing and winning. To me some fictional numbers on the screen popping up after I win on Titles tab mean absolutely nothing. It's nice to have em as a result of good gameplay, but as a result of a bad or non existent gameplay what's the point. I always used to say - people - if you care about numbers, open excel sheet and just exponentially keep increasing numbers until you get tired of it.

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Originally Posted by BlackEagle

Has your argument really come down to heroes should be allowed because there are already npcs in the battle?

Well he tried every other argument and it didn't work. Right now he's using this argument:
"Lying = Stealing = Killing". To him, there's no difference. To him a sunflower and a Sun are the same, because they both have some yellowish.

Legendary Battousai · Sep 03, 2007, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Hero:Archer::Flower:Sun is what your assuming.

It doesn't make sense to me or to you, nor is it what I'm implying.

People complain that they are fighting AI, not humans, but then fight Archers, Knights, Bodyguards contently?
People complain that they are fighting something predictable, and yet fail to realize humans, NPCs and Heroes are equally predictable?
People complain that heroes ruin competitive pvp, but then ask us to consider low end PvP?

Sounds retarded.

You say "If Heroes don't win tourneys. . ." does not apply to this discussion, yet others only want heroes removed from "high end PvP"?
You say theres is a "healthy balance", when everything in this game is relative?
-So Heroes were acceptable before NPC numbers were increased with VoD changes?

Also sounds pretty retarded.

Basically what you did in your post was make a series categorical analogies which compares my examples, and yours, trying to demonstrate that my claim that all AI are the same as unreasonable, without even clearly stating any proof of this. It is an overexaggerated attemt, taking away from any seriousness your post could have had.

As I said before, people are only complaining about Heroes, not Henchmen; NPCs, Heroes and Henchmen all share the same AI, the only difference being build, and level of HUMAN control. Now to say Heroes are worse for PvP than Archers? They require a Human to control.

The only things heroes take away from the game are... is... well I don't know.
People claim it is overpowered when they lose to it.
People claim its boring when they steam roll it.
People claim it takes away from the spirit of PvP when they get bored of it.

Sounds exactly like what happens when a meta-build exists.

So put the two comparisons together [a process called deduction]. This problem has nothing to do with heroes, except with the two skills they can play better than humans: taint and death nova, which is a large trade for positioning, inteligence, flexibility, and reliability.

The problem is the "Heroway" Build.

Seamus Finn · Sep 03, 2007, 08:43 AM // 08:43

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Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

The only things heroes take away from the game are... is... well I don't know.

Players..........

Sin Revenga · Sep 03, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

i really don't see how ppl lose to kenshin's guild send back a decent split kill his monk then kill him then proceed to killing his ele, then fall back on the rest of his team wipe them kill lord. yay for you you beat a scrubby hb guild.

Legendary Battousai · Sep 03, 2007, 09:21 AM // 09:21

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Originally Posted by Sin Revenga

i really don't see how ppl lose to kenshin's guild send back a decent split kill his monk then kill him then proceed to killing his ele, then fall back on the rest of his team wipe them kill lord. yay for you you beat a scrubby hb guild.

I beat bad teams, they never thought of that, which is why they are bad.

You must be good at High Level PvP!

Whirlwind · Sep 03, 2007, 09:54 AM // 09:54

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Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Players..........

Wrong, heroes are a nice replacement for when there are no players (like 4 in the morning when some of us play), or only idiots who would end up wasting your time anyway.