Curse

Lord Mendes · Aug 22, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Just a real quick informal poll, how many of you are against heroes because they create imbalance (or they are better or more effective than humans at certain roles) and how many of you are against them because you do not feel NPCs have a place in Player vs Player environments for philosophical reasons? Both are perfectly reasonable complaints, I was just curious.

Both.
The build is not hard to beat, though would have been easier if all your opponents were real players.
The main reason I don't like heroes is because you don't get the satisfaction when you beat them. Beating or being defeated by real players is much more fun than beating heroes. No need for any fancy explanation really, that is probably the biggest reason.
It's like playing chess against a bot as opposed to playing chess against a real person, it just isn't as fun.

Shmanka · Aug 22, 2007, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

This is frequently a topic of discussion amongst the designers. They are open to both sides of the argument so please don't think this topic is being ignored.

Just a real quick informal poll, how many of you are against heroes because they create imbalance (or they are better or more effective than humans at certain roles) and how many of you are against them because you do not feel NPCs have a place in Player vs Player environments for philosophical reasons? Both are perfectly reasonable complaints, I was just curious.

If you read my first main post it more or less summarizes fundamental problems. Oilas and Master of Whispers are Chess Calculators in HA.
Most others have posted their feelings and opinions as well.

If a poll could be built into this thread please would be highly appreciated.

Andrew Patrick · Aug 22, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

If you do want to make a poll about this, be sure to also include a "I do not have a problem with heroes" option. I know polls with no applicable answers tend to annoy a few people.

I have read all the posts in this thread and most people have expressed what their concern is in great detail. My request was more directed at the people who either just write /sign or "yeah, heroes fts" without an explanation, but I gotta say, for the most part you guys are really good at supporting your stances.

It's extremely busy here, what with PAX this weekend and the release of GW:EN next week, but I know this is a topic that we are eager for feedback on.

Nurse With Wound · Aug 24, 2007, 02:43 AM // 02:43

As per request I've added a poll to this thread.

Previous poll in this matter was conducted in Heroes Ascent forum, and did not include GVGs. This poll is for both HA/GVG.

Vote and comment, don't troll :P

Servant of Kali · Aug 24, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

OK after more testing... my guild put Olias FoTM yesterday for one game only. He had the standard N/Rt uber-reflexes and battle awareness build. Let's put it this way... we beat a guild which was (when it comes to a rank) 2x better. I'm not saying Olias did it all, but quite honestly, he sort of disabled enemy TAB, since you can't TAB properly with so many things to tab (pet, minions)... and he can cast Death Nova and Tainted perfectly ... etc etc.

In the end, I can't really say I enjoyed winning that one, and seeing the comments of the enemy team, mildly said, they didn't enjoy it either.

Elrodien · Aug 24, 2007, 09:06 AM // 09:06

I think heroes should be removed completely from GvG and HA.

I know that it may hurt some of the newer guilds as they may struggle to get players, but its the abuse of the uber-reaction times and uber tabbing of a hero that is causing most of the grief.

In my opinion heroes should not give your team any edge at all, but these N/rt healers are way too good at doing what they do. You can't even Divert them properly because the Diversion is off before a human player could call for hex removal. This clearly isn't fair on the team that manages to get 8 players online (and that can be extremely hard work at the best of times).

So, either adjust hero AI to make them suck more, or remove them from pvp altogether. I'd be happy with either. AI abuse is ftl.

Servant of Kali · Aug 24, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Dumb hero AI is not something I'd like for PvE... not that I PvE lol but still. In PvP, all I wanted was decent hero AI to replace missing humanoids, which is what we got - in most cases. If you look at most builds hero cant play em as good as humans. It's just these few hero builds which are really uber and unfair.

Shmanka · Aug 27, 2007, 05:33 AM // 05:33

I just noticed, just played a few gvg's and tested myself. Ports (Such as in Nomads and Jade Isle) completely exploit heroes. If the controller of them ports, no matter what the position of the heroes they port as well. It's almost a recall with no guided direction or skill required... needless to say I am disapointed in this.

I Angra I · Aug 27, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Heroes should be completely removed from all forms of PvP besides Hero Battles. They have no place in a player vs. player environment.

I have no problem with henchmen, as they are sub-par to human players, with a set skillbar, and can be used as a very last resort. But when you see people CHOOSING to bring heroes over humans because of their ability to play certain builds perfectly, is when it becomes a problem. And it is a problem.

wolfy3455 · Aug 27, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

I just noticed, just played a few gvg's and tested myself. Ports (Such as in Nomads and Jade Isle) completely exploit heroes. If the controller of them ports, no matter what the position of the heroes they port as well. It's almost a recall with no guided direction or skill required... needless to say I am disapointed in this.

Actually, teleporters are really bad with heroes. The heroes only teleport if they're within earshot of the person they're following. If they aren't, odds are they'll ditch the teleporter entirely and move towards the person with control without using the teleporter at all. Theres also times when heroes use the teleporters alone and run back to the person with control instead of just using the teleporter to get back.

There are situations where heroes are better than humans, but teleporters aren't one of them.

Shmanka · Aug 28, 2007, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfy3455

Actually, teleporters are really bad with heroes. The heroes only teleport if they're within earshot of the person they're following. If they aren't, odds are they'll ditch the teleporter entirely and move towards the person with control without using the teleporter at all. Theres also times when heroes use the teleporters alone and run back to the person with control instead of just using the teleporter to get back.

There are situations where heroes are better than humans, but teleporters aren't one of them.

I suggest you scrim against an opponent in your guild hall. Having a hero snared, and at 10% HP should not be able to instantly disapear because the leader of the heroes went through the port first.

Signet Of Hell · Aug 28, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Why is there so much discussion over something which can be easily solved?

THEY BELONG IN PVE. They are to help you when you have no friends in PvE and want to do missions without the hassle of saying "LFG LFG". PvP means Player versus Player, I don't care how many people say "Oh but we always end up need 1 more player after a guildie goes to sleep" or whatever, they don't belong. So stop complaining that you haven't got enough people sometimes, recruit more members into your guild or use the damn N button and you'll realise you can actually ADD REAL PEOPLE (omgomg) to a team.

BlackEagle · Aug 28, 2007, 02:14 PM // 14:14

I voted to ban them completely, it's just a joke the way they are abused.

I have a problem with the fact that they can perform better than humans in some roles, and I have a problem with them playing as well. It just doesn't make sense, and it is boring to play against.

The only legitimate argument I can see against it is that it can encourage people to get into pvp, who don't have 8 people on, but if that's the case, there are the henchman, who fulfill the purpose. If you can't field the requisite 8 people, you're lucky to be able to play at all, so you should be hindered, ie. henchman rather than helped ie. heroes with certain builds. Having said that, the henchman should get some decent, or atleast not terribad builds. In particular, the monk henchman is a joke. If that bar was changed, it would allow casual players who just want to play an option, yet it leaves no scope to be abused by other guilds.

rohara · Aug 28, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

i'm in a low ranked GvG guild that only really plays for fun. as much as we'd like to have 8 human players - that's not always the case. playing with heroes is honestly a disadvantage in most cases, so i don't see it as a problem at all. we might bring a monk or an ele hero to round off our team - put em on builds that are infinitely inferior to that of real players because they can't play most of the good bars effectively. heroes make great healers and mm's, but pretty much suck at everything else. they can't even coordinate a spike without uber micromanagement, which puts you at an even greater disadvantage. (thumpers are another matter entirely, which is a balance issue with necromancers, not with heroes themselves! please god remove energy gain from spirits already, PLEASE!)

anyways...we'd only play a couple games a week if it weren't for our trusty heroes. our rank floats between 2000-9000 on a weekly basis, so its not like these heroes are really doing us any favors. we run into lots of other teams that also use heroes to fill in their empty slots, and i don't see anything wrong with that. i'm just as happy kicking the crap out of tahlkora as i am kicking the crap out of a real monk.

let the heroes stay, i say! at least for low ranked guilds who just want to play for fun. i'm all for kicking them out of ATS entirely. serious guilds can always find someone to guest if they need somebody.

and the henchmen are awful. AWFUL. not an option.

Legendary Battousai · Aug 28, 2007, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

I just noticed, just played a few gvg's and tested myself. Ports (Such as in Nomads and Jade Isle) completely exploit heroes. If the controller of them ports, no matter what the position of the heroes they port as well. It's almost a recall with no guided direction or skill required... needless to say I am disapointed in this.

Ohithar

I'm Kenshin, leader of Ryuk and well known gvg hero user :P So automatically you know I'm going to support keeping heroes in gvg because of the increased activity they have given to my 7 member guild.

First of all: Shmanka, I understand your frustration from being demolished by my hero build, and I send my condolences, but calling them overpowered and such just because of this, seems like an over reaction. On Nomads and Jade - the teleporters will only teleport heroes IF and ONLY IF they are within a little more than cast range of the PERSON going through the teleporter. Notice I didn't say the person controlling the heroes. Which leads to why this is not overpowered. Say I have 2 sins on my team, and I'm running my heroes. If he goes out of the teleporter before me, he teleports my heroes, and my heroes run back to me. But, heroes, not knowing how to use teleports, run back to me THE LONG WAY, which means through coral, or the front door of Nomads. Thus, this really isnt an overpowered ability of heroes - you decide to play bad mannered and try to save a hero of all things for after res timer, and I save them by teleporting them away. Thus, its a double edged sword, and I don't see the problem - its not good enough, and too unstable to abuse effectivly.

Secondly, effeciency is a factor when bringing heroes. If I decided to bring a Minnion Master or a Tainter (or a combination of the two) into a build, I would definately bring a hero over a player - they are PERFECT with taint, along with a FEW other skills. Other skills they are completely worthless with, and human players can easily outplay. This can be shown when I guested Josh (Axiom), who was the QQ guy incase nobody knows him, and let him play my Fire Ele bar, instead of my hero. We did better with a human than the hero.

This brings me to my next point: How are heroes overpowered and need to be limited if humans are better? Well I just contradicted myself - heroes are perfect with some skills and not others. So, here is my suggestion: Further nerf skills, like what has happened to Death Nova, to more human abilities. Taint would be an example, but to be honest, I can't think of much more. Heroes aren't that powerful. But on skill balance level, the dubbed "HA Heroway" with Olias and Master on N/Rts have overpowered skills in them which should be handled appropriately - banning heroes from high level play only makes the game less active. I cant count how many times in late night gvg where people absolutely can't find a guest a bring a hero to fill the spot and enter. Most of these teams do badly, my guild, is the only one that comes to mind which does very well with heroes.

Also in response to banning them in AT play: They already are. The only ATs that matter are monthly, and they are already limited to two - which would probably nuke a lot of teams who were planning on playing the monthly because it is extremely hard to field enough players to actually play it- even harder if you can not fall back on heroes.

Sorry if I restated opinions or posts etc., I am too lazy to read the entire thread because I'm pretty sure its just GANK ranting about losing to heroes.

BlackEagle · Aug 29, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

@ Kenshin: The trouble with your solution is that it works in theory, but I really can't see any actual way to do that with the skills without completely destroying their use by other builds and actual players. If you take death nova or tainted flesh, I'd really like to hear any possible way to make it good for humans over heros. The only solution to make this work and keep heros is either to make the skills so they aren't so good on a hero, or make the heroes so they aren't so good with the skills. As I've said, I can't see how the former is possible. And with the latter, it would be almost impossible to balance it right, you might make them too bad at certain things, and how can you really code it so they can't select it. Heroes play the game mathimatically, there is no other way they can play, and it so happens that for that sort of build playing it like that works perfectly. So, unless you put a delay in on the heroes using skills and make them useless, that's not really a valid option.

So, assuming people agree that abusing heros for heroway with tainted etc. needs to change, unless either of the above situations can be resolved, the only way forward I see is to ban heroes.

Mirage Isnt Emo · Aug 29, 2007, 05:26 AM // 05:26

I am not really meaning this to be a flame... But it may come out that way... If you are having problems with heroway, is that their fault, or could it be your teams? I do not know if you know anything about heros, but if you dont have someone good actually controlling them in a gvg situation, they are literally worthless.

You have to constantly reflag hero's if you are running them with a melee class (as say the teams that run assassins). Hero's to an extent are players with bad positioning, who overextend at a whim for nothing, but can actually use their skills right to some extent. Only certain hero bars even do anything, that is more of the problem, that you are limited to certain gimmicky builds that most people with a common attention span have trouble with.

Running a tainted/MM is hard for a real person to do, clicking on minions constantly to deathnova, putting it on minions/pets, maintaining tainted on everyone in the team. It is too much for an average player to do.

Now how exactly is heroway so broken in gvg that it needs to be nerfed? Is it because your team lost to it? The fact that AI is actually better then the majority of the people in this game?

BlackEagle · Aug 29, 2007, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirage Isnt Emo

Now how exactly is heroway so broken in gvg that it needs to be nerfed? Is it because your team lost to it? The fact that AI is actually better then the majority of the people in this game?

The problem with it is that it means teams can do better with 4 players in their team than they would have done with 8. In a competetive format, how can that work? It just doesn't make sense. The fact that your guild or my guild or any other guild can beat it is insignificant. These guilds shouldn't be able to do better running heroes than running real players.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about the necro heros with tainted etc. That is basically all that people have a problem with, no-one really cares about facing tahlkora every once in a while, but losing or having a long drawn out and difficult win when you know if they weren't running heros and had their players in those positions you'd roll them in 4 minutes is incredibly annoying.

The problem is the combination of heroes and the death magic skills (and some tohers) basically, so either change hero ai or change the skills. If you can't do that without destroying either for everything else, then the other way around it really is banning heroes imo.

RhanoctJocosa · Aug 29, 2007, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Believe it or not, this is the only no-hero post that isn't simply saying "Heroes don't belong in PvP".

Yes. They are trying to get into PvP. This is the best way for them, as it avoids set up time, skill bickering, guild drama, wasted time, ragequitters, and in the case of HA, rank discrimination.

A few points here:
-burning isle has been notoriously hard to split on, that, jade isle, and others should have been fixed a long time ago so that this isn't a problem anymore
-if they were easy to beat, what's the issue? How is that different from any other easy to beat meta?
-if you were having problems with them, what are the odds that they were also micromanaging their heroes? Doesn't that form of player skill deserve respect?
-if they were playing "that one Heroway Build" wouldn't a call of nerfs to that one build be more appropriate?
-what about nerfing the AI? They already did it with Death Nova. That sets a precident

One last really important point:
-assholes and poor sports will always exist, and nothing will change that, except turning off your local chat

So you're saying we should just throw quality PvP out the window because new players are too lazy/bad at the game to meet new friends and form their own groups?

Defeating heroway, decent ones anyway, isn't as easy as splitting. In fact, good heroway teams split very well and easily. Ask Ryuk. (not bashing them)

Even if you completely steam roll a team with heroes, so what? You owned bots. gratz

But thumpers with degen pressure doesn't need to be nerfed, it's been out there for ages.

You don't need to nerf the AI. Just remove them from GvG/HA- If you really want to play with heroes and practice your micro/awareness/reaction then go HB, in which case a buff to the AI is needed.

Legendary Battousai · Aug 30, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

removing them is just a scapegoat for bad play - if you ask izzy: he believes he can outplay a hero in every aspect because hes human and heroes think once per second.

Accordingly, being a human, one gvging against heroes should think logically to beat them: You know they will overextend, you know they will cast in predictable patterns to interupt, you know they will cast through diversion, you know they don't cast when they are moving. Then again, maybe you don't.

Hypothetically, I start a new guild and invite 7 people with real life metal disabilities. Long story short, they lose to a team with heroes- should the heroes be at fault for being too powerful? Should anything be done because of our own inability to outhink a static mindset?

You have close to 1000 skills at your disposal, try using them, if you honestly believe heroes are too powerful for gvg, if you think heroes are that much of a problem. When you see heroes win a monthly, then concider removing heroes, until then, adapt like people need to, in order to win against any overpowered build.