Curse

Shmanka · Aug 06, 2007, 05:03 PM // 17:03

This has been a true hot topic ever since Nightfall was first released. Now with the weekend event testing over, alot of us have come to see Oilas and Master of Whispers in over 50% of the groups you meet in the same deadly combination. Why does this cause a problem to the general pvp population? Why should we remove or keep them? Well, I will place some points from my observations then my opinion, criticism is appreciate but will be taken lightly.

To start off, I would like to definitely put in place the positive things that these heroes add to PvP in general.

- Convinience
- Effectiveness
- Customizable

These things although few should be taken into great consideration. Awkward hours for people who play pvp with more then 1-2 friends this is a great asset to the casual player. From my experience we should never exclude anyone from PvP. The effectiveness is also great, from skill priority and easy alternations of playstyle. You can ask your warrior to single handedly lineback a target then offensively switch to a monk with ease. Although they are not perfect they are good, maybe even too good. Which leads into...

- Heroes are better then human players
- Heroes (assuming) base skills off mathematics
- Heroes can read the entire field better then human players
- Heroes perfectly cast and can cancel skills, beyond what the game can let human players do

Essentially, this is my entire point of view of what is negative on the mass hero in HA community. The biggest and summarization of them all is that they are better then human players. Your primary example is Tainted Flesh or MoR Norgu Spammer. The tainted flesh is just casted mathematically with no frustration whatsoever. Try and run the current meta "Heroway" and see for yourself if you ever get diseased based off Oilas' bad play. It will never happen. The heroes can even be better then most r3 and below players which somewhat distinguishes the pvp community from co-operating.

I feel that Heroes should actually be compared to a Chess calculator. The Chess calculator does most of the exact same things, perfect response, attack, and skill usage. They are above the average player in skill. It's a piece of technology that gives you a huge advantage which is unmistakable, yet still defeatable, although, Chess tournament rules do not allow it, nor should GvG tournaments. GvG tournaments should only have actual players.

My entire proposal:

Due to the fact that GvG and HA are popular and idolized formats for PvP I have roughly thought of a system for their usage.

HA Hero Restrictions:
-You may only have 1 Hero per 1 Human Player.
-Maximum 3 Heroes per Party.

This restriction would make the general population of HA hero gimmick builds reduce, and their effectiveness shot. I honestly do not feel we should permanently ban them from the HA environment. HA is designed to be decently effective with players who do not have great experience with each other or high level of PvP. Heroes should add in a decent stepping stone until more friends are found

GvG Hero Restrictions:
-Banned

GvG is a notation for Guild Versus Guild. I will be completely stubborn about this one, I feel that everytime anyone faces against a Heroway GvG the losing team is frustrated whoever it is, and it wasn't decided based on skill.

Add your comments, opinions, ideas, suggestions!

If a poll could be added as well would be appreciated.

Div · Aug 06, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Agreed. First thinking heroway would be a problem in HA, but all you see is that they replaced some heroes with real players and/or made that same thumpway more nasty. I also find myself wanting to just take heroes sometimes and have some fun for fast group creation, so a complete banning would be out of question. 3 would be a good number for HA. And yes, I share your thoughts for GvG. No heroes should be allowed.

There's already a poll in the HA section for heroes, but I'll be the first to admit that the evolution of heroway this weekend changed my opinions drastically, as I voted for a complete ban in both types before, so maybe it's time for this thread to take over the new opinions and re-do a poll, or for mods to monitor another one now that the weekend is over.

BlackEagle · Aug 06, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

This is a very difficult subject, as it is not necessarily a build which can be nerfed, it is the heroes use of it, but I do not see how that can be nerfed without taking it too far/how can you decide how good they can be/how else can they work other than mathematically?

For that reason, the only solution really is limiting/banning them. I agree with banning them from gvg, it's just annoying. However, I really doubt that anet will do that. They want to encourage casual play as well. For that reason, I'd say that allowing 1 might be permittible, only because I think that is the more likely course of action.

In HA, I think restricting them to 1/2 per party is the best option.

smrandom · Aug 06, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

/signed, as it relates to GvG

Completely ban them from GvG. I don't play HA, so I can't comment on the suggestion for it.

Nebuchadnezzer · Aug 06, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Player VERSUS Player is the reason a lot of people play this game. GvG and HA are supposed to be Higher Level PLAYER vs PLAYER. Heroes are not players, and in 99% of the teams running them, are not controlled by the player. We come to pvp for a challenge. We liked facing people and testing our skills vs them. Testing your skills vs NPC's isnt very fun.

Ban them in all high level pvp formats.

deluxe · Aug 07, 2007, 12:01 AM // 00:01

I dont think there is much to discuss, It's pretty damn obvious that Heroes do not belong in PvP.
Ofcourse, there will always be a couple of PvE players who GvG once or twice a month who disagree, but does their opinion really count?
Got hit hard in a match tonight vs heroway on burning isle, luckily most people who play this build suck so hard they don't know what to do or cannot keep up at a VoD guildlord gank. And now some scrubs will come: "lol you have trouble with heroway, you suck lol!"

Teh [prefession]-zorz · Aug 07, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

NO HEROS AT ALL, this is Player Vs Player, not Player vs Hero vs Player

Neo-LD · Aug 07, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Heroes are not better than players. But they should still be banned from pvp.

twicky_kid · Aug 07, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

I am in favor of keeping heroes. There have been many times our group would not have been able to play because we did not have enough people and couldn't find anyone.

Its nice to know I can take a hero and go play instead of being shut down completely and wasted a lot of time getting the group together. Even with a hero its not a wasted space because they can play some builds very well. Only tainted can they play better than a real human. That is because of Anet's failure not the player's.

We've asked Anet many times to improve the interface like adding enchant icons next to the names on the party windows. Give us a way to target individual minions. Other than that heroes have no advantage over a real player.

God Apprentice · Aug 07, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Player versus Player

'Nuff said.

Div · Aug 07, 2007, 02:59 AM // 02:59

To be honest, the discrepancy lies in the fact that I view HA as closer to "casual pvp" and some others view it as "serious pvp" on par with GvG's. That's why I think some heroes can be allowed in HA to have easier party formation in HA since it's just a stepping stone to learning how to pvp better in GvG.

Nurse With Wound · Aug 07, 2007, 03:58 AM // 03:58

I'm tired of this already. Do we really need another thread discussing this? I cba to repost all that I've written in other 3 threads.

Heroes do not belong to Player vs Player . I play ET vs humans, I play CS vs real people, i play DotA against live opponents. Why in Guild Wars I have to be condemned to play against sub-par AI bots in Player vs Player? Only acceptable number of heroes in PVP is zero. . I think that people who want heroes, do not understand basic definition of PVP. Here is the article for you, read and learn already. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_Player

For the lazy ones, I'm giving a quote

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Player versus player, or PvP, is competitive interaction within a game between two live participants. This is in contrast to games where players compete against computer controlled opponent, which is similarly referred to as player versus environment (PvE) or player versus monster (PvM). PvP could be a type of combat in MMORPGs, MUDs and other computer role-playing games (CRPGs) pitting one player's 'skill' against another's.

Skye Marin · Aug 07, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

I dont think there is much to discuss, It's pretty damn obvious that Heroes do not belong in PvP.

Believe it or not, this is the only no-hero post that isn't simply saying "Heroes don't belong in PvP".

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

Ofcourse, there will always be a couple of PvE players who GvG once or twice a month who disagree, but does their opinion really count?

Yes. They are trying to get into PvP. This is the best way for them, as it avoids set up time, skill bickering, guild drama, wasted time, ragequitters, and in the case of HA, rank discrimination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

Got hit hard in a match tonight vs heroway on burning isle, luckily most people who play this build suck so hard they don't know what to do or cannot keep up at a VoD guildlord gank. And now some scrubs will come: "lol you have trouble with heroway, you suck lol!"

A few points here:
-burning isle has been notoriously hard to split on, that, jade isle, and others should have been fixed a long time ago so that this isn't a problem anymore
-if they were easy to beat, what's the issue? How is that different from any other easy to beat meta?
-if you were having problems with them, what are the odds that they were also micromanaging their heroes? Doesn't that form of player skill deserve respect?
-if they were playing "that one Heroway Build" wouldn't a call of nerfs to that one build be more appropriate?
-what about nerfing the AI? They already did it with Death Nova. That sets a precident

One last really important point:
-assholes and poor sports will always exist, and nothing will change that, except turning off your local chat

TheOneMephisto · Aug 07, 2007, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Nurse just owned this thread, and it's entirely true. There's a reason why it's called player vs player. If someone wants to get into casual PvP, then it isn't hard to get into PuGvG or play in TA.

Shmanka · Aug 07, 2007, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

it isn't hard to get into PuGvG or play in TA.

I would actually have to disagree in this here. TA may infact be correct I am not a high ranked gladiator yet Pug GvG are usually delt with specific gvg alliances or are known only among the specific gvg community. A new player straight off the street will not know of these options and will use the menu buttons in front of him.

Skye Marin · Aug 07, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

There's a reason why it's called player vs player.

Then why have the henchmen, AI players, been available for use since day one of Guild Wars?

Seamus Finn · Aug 07, 2007, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Then why have the henchmen, AI players, been available for use since day one of Guild Wars?

So that if you were dying to just grab 8 and go you can but you would clearly be worse off doing so. Since you are clearly just playing for fun it shouldn't matter. To play in an arena seriously should require having real players for each role. Henchies allow new players to play, at the cost of being competitive. Why should players be allow to bring heros that, if brought instead of a realy player, increase their odds of winning? What do heros accomplish that henchmen don't in PvP other than enabling AI abuse?

TheOneMephisto · Aug 08, 2007, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

I would actually have to disagree in this here. TA may infact be correct I am not a high ranked gladiator yet Pug GvG are usually delt with specific gvg alliances or are known only among the specific gvg community. A new player straight off the street will not know of these options and will use the menu buttons in front of him.

There are IRC channels for PuGvG. I've gotten into plenty of PuGvGs with people who have no clue who I am, and these were often good (top 100, top 50) players too.

Div · Aug 08, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

I'm tired of this already. Do we really need another thread discussing this? I cba to repost all that I've written in other 3 threads.

Heroes do not belong to Player vs Player . I play ET vs humans, I play CS vs real people, i play DotA against live opponents. Why in Guild Wars I have to be condemned to play against sub-par AI bots in Player vs Player? Only acceptable number of heroes in PVP is zero. . I think that people who want heroes, do not understand basic definition of PVP. Here is the article for you, read and learn already. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_Player

For the lazy ones, I'm giving a quote

Anet pretty much destroyed themselves when they introduced heroes to the game and even made a "PvP" arena out of it. By that wikipedia definition strictly, PvP just has to involve live participants, and does not matter if there are also AI controlled participants as well, so technically HA with heroes is still PvP. If you argue that one can't have heroes mixed with players and still call it PvP, then by that new definition Hero Battles is no longer PvP. HA is merely the big boy's Hero Battles. See the catch? Anet dug themselves into a hole they'll never be able to get out of.

And yes, I can understand your frustration, but the more input the better. Anet will really need to analyze every facet of this problem they created.

beltran13579 · Aug 08, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

i do think that they should be banned but to say because its Player vs player isnt a reason its called player vs player because there are 2 teams of actual people not FULL teams of CPUs