Curse

yule · Nov 02, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Since apparently i have to make posts regarding RA in the TA thread, im just gonna repost what i said...

Quote:

Ok, so I am a player who has spent a decent chunk of time in RA over the past 18 months. It was my first love, and however badly it treated me I knew that there would be times where it would want to cuddle and make me feel like a real man.

So as a sort of connoisseur of that most random of arenas I feel somewhat qualified to comment about the rather interesting decision to introduce objective based maps, and at the saturation that they appear to be at.

The thing with the objective based maps of HvH is that they focus too heavily on highly mobile, fast damage characters with survival mechanisms. There is no room for traditional pressure to spike in the form of warriors (I mean this in the way that wars will apply pressure and then spike in a moment of weakness). No room for traditional anti-melee, as stopping a person from attacking does not affect his effectiveness in such maps, and as such the effectiveness of necros is all but gone. The same can be said of anti-caster measures, after all what can a mesmer do against someone that is just running away? Even the old staple of the Arena diet, the monk, is surplus to requirement in a 4v4 objective based map, after all if you are mobile enough to just keep capping untill a favourable match up occurs (in terms of numbers or character/skill match up) you can still win and win well.

Basically what Im trying to say is that by introducing objective based maps into an anihilation map rotation at the levels that Anet have (Im currently getting a 1:1 ratio of traditional:HvH) it is effectively designating Random arenas as a "Assasin Only" zone, and I, for one, cannot think of anything more sad.

I should point out, that I am saying this not only because of the assasins effectiveness in HvH maps, but also in the annihilation maps. This was balanced out in annihilation by the wide range of other viable profession builds however. In HvH maps there is only one true champ.

The gimmicky nature of assasins, the lack of skill required to make impact, the general crappyness of playing with or against them makes this possibly the biggest blunder in game balance that Anet could possibly have made. Relegating all of the "top tier" professions to the "come, but expect to be beaten by an 11 yr old that cant even tie his own shoes" basket is terribad...

What im more annoyed about is the fact that Anet has a perfectly viable, random, objective based arena already set up, and instead of merely releasing it as a seperate expansion to the battle isles they instead decide to hybridise (or bastardize) it with a completely different, already succesful and balanced, arena.

In conclusion, this is what Anet should take this from their experiment... Costume Brawl is a really fun game. Random arenas as it was, was a really fun (frustrating / humourous / irritating / rewarding / addictive) game. The amalgamation of the two however only leads to a situation where one class holds all of the power cards, and this should not be endorsed or encouraged in this game.

The major objection i really have with the addition of these maps is that sins are simply too strong. They hold their own in normal annihilation while being supremely effective in the cap maps.

Ankkasika · Nov 02, 2007, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

TA only needed a ladder and an obs mode. But ANet prefered to give ladder to challenge missions and HB.

TA can NEVER have a ladder or obs mode with only head-on fighting maps, and you either know it or haven't thought about it. Give those to TA and it'll turn worse than HB in 2 weeks max. The HB maps might not be the best possible way to add skill into TA, but as long as only 1/3 of the TA maps are from HB, the HB part can only cause good things.

I'm saying this because I want a TA ladder+tournaments myself too, BTW.

Lord Natural · Nov 02, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

It seems anet's penchant for RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing up pvp didn't stop with RA. TA badly needed some love, but this isn't it. I have no desire whatsoever to run around playing HB in TA and getting ganked by prison sins. It's fitting that andrew patrick was on an A/W in RA id1 the other day when he was talking about this a little bit. Guess not enough sin in TA, so it was time for changes.

TA was fine the way it was, all it needed was additional reward(s) to entice players to want to play it. I mean GvG & HB have the ladder, ATs and monthlys. HA obviously has fame and the hoh chests. TA has... nothing. That's a shame because TA can be a lot of fun, it just needs something extra to bring players to it. It's quick and easy to organize, and matches are usually equally quick. But forcing shrines on us and the fruity build mechanics which go with them make me want to quit yet another form of pvp I was actually into a little bit.

yule · Nov 02, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ankkasika

TA can NEVER have a ladder or obs mode with only head-on fighting maps, and you either know it or haven't thought about it. Give those to TA and it'll turn worse than HB in 2 weeks max. The HB maps might not be the best possible way to add skill into TA, but as long as only 1/3 of the TA maps are from HB, the HB part can only cause good things.

I'm saying this because I want a TA ladder+tournaments myself too, BTW.

How come WoW can do it?

glountz · Nov 02, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by yule

How come WoW can do it?

Worst, how Challenge missions can have one?

Amalek · Nov 02, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

They shouldn't be in TA, because from a competitive standpoint they are terrible.

But God help me they're fun in RA

Cixpak88 · Nov 02, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

I understand the npc's in GvG, but why is anet trying to push more and more pve into pvp. Npc's DO NOT belong in pvp. Its called pvp for a reason. Now on top of fighting spirit spammers we have to fight mercenary's...ugh

Rururrur · Nov 02, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

I can understand the attempt to add strategy to arenas, and I don't think it's a horrible idea, just not what a large percentage, and judging from these forums, a large majority of the player base is looking for in four man arenas.

In addition, I think that over time, this will end up narrowing the window of viable team builds, much like in HB. In order to add self sufficiency and mobility, utility or damage has to be sacrificed, thus limiting the viable number of secondaries for each primary class and reducing synergy between builds. I also believe this will even further promote builds with support ritualists and even two monk backlines.

Of course, if the map changes are permanent, only time will tell. It's difficult for a meta to get stale in one weekend. . .

Stowbee · Nov 02, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

TA was fine the way it was, all it needed was additional reward(s) to entice players to want to play it.

God no :< Arent all these people on forums crying because they will get their glads slower enough already?

nimek · Nov 02, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Now i'm just waitg for relics run and guild lord on ra/ta ... gj a.net -_-'

notrich · Nov 02, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

People were asking for new maps in TA, but A-net in its typical fashion half assed it. Rather than design new maps from scratch, they scoop up piles of dog excriment from HB and serve it up fresh in TA.

IF anet was smart, they would release a map editor...

Let us design maps.

Allow us to submit the maps via the guildwars store.

Let us test them with a merchant in guildhalls... (a merchant would let you "tour" or scrim in a map that you submit).

Then create a weekly/monthly poll for the best submitted maps.

On topic, played a few hb maps in ra yesterday... was lucky that I didnt run into runners... I agree with people that say the time limit should be shortened.

As long as cap maps do not dominate the rotation it should be ok.

Gustin · Nov 02, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

I'm really iffy on it. As far as RA goes, it should definatly be taken out. I mean it's RANDOM arena, 4 random people thrown together on a team. These types of maps support strategy, tactics and skirmishes, something that 4 random people can't possible put together in a matter of seconds.

For TA on the other hand....eh, I dunno. Maybe if the time limit was shortened and the point count was lowered so it doesn't take so long, it might not be so bad. I think that's my biggest problem with it right now is you're pretty much there for 20 minutes in one match. And that can get old really fast. Esspecially when your team gets 2 HB maps in a row like I did earlier. Damn near 40 minutes of running around trying not to get ganked while capping. Very annoying.

So, I say to Anet, remove it from RA. Twink it up for TA a lil bit with the timer and the points and maybe a few other things, and it could be worthwhile.

Lord Natural · Nov 02, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stowbee

God no :< Arent all these people on forums crying because they will get their glads slower enough already?

What do glad points have to do with it? Anet make changes like this in order to make the arena more popular. The whole point is to increase GW's longevity to keep people interested until GW2. I'm guessing the assumption was HB maps would somehow inject new life into TA, with the map synergy drawing TA'ers to HB and vice versa. However, I believe it will take more than re-hashed maps or new glad point systems to really get activity up. PvP'ers like rewards and goals. GvG has rewards, HBs have rewards, HA obviously has rewards, and hell, even ABs have rewards. TA will need more than a gimped out title system to really make people want to play it. Considering that the new glad point system really didn't increase TA activity, I think it's clear at this point that the title track alone isn't drawing a huge crowd.

Ekelon · Nov 02, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by word

oh hush! youre happy with the changes cause rawr fails in ta

rawr doesn't TA as a guild.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Just stay in HB.

... People who say stuff like this just annoy me straight on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by subNinja

Pve'rs already have hero battles, I really hope they don't start getting to infest TA.

Oh yea, so while all the Pve'rs have hero battles and got nice 500 dollar prizes, you are playing other stuff that doesn't net any prizes. Are you suggesting HB is easy? If so, why don't you play it (if it's so easy then it's like getting a free $500 prize according to your statement). And besides, infesting TA with easy players would be good right? More glad points kk?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

People were asking for new maps in TA, but A-net in its typical fashion half assed it. Rather than design new maps from scratch, they scoop up piles of dog excriment from HB and serve it up fresh in TA.

I think that would be good, but if not... read next quote/comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wren e

Personally, I think that it is a mistake to add these maps to RA, without some sort of effective communication this is just bad. In TA though, the matches do take longer to finish on these maps and I would suggest changing the points needed to win from 20 to 10, to promote quicker matches and to keep it on par with the length of time that other maps take. Honestly though, with a few minor changes I can see that these map additions can be a positive thing for TA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

the idea wasn't bad: add other maps in TA, so you need more tactics and a more versatile build.
Only problem: it plain sucks.

Personally some changes that make it interesting:
- lower points to 15
- add DP
- longer ressurection at shrine
- team is wiped when:
* all = 60 DP
* all dead at same time (during the 15-20 sec res)

(just a brainstorm)

Those sound like pretty good suggestions. If they can't make new maps, they can at least change the mechanics of it to suit TA!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

What do glad points have to do with it? Anet make changes like this in order to make the arena more popular. The whole point is to increase GW's longevity to keep people interested until GW2. I'm guessing the assumption was HB maps would somehow inject new life into TA, with the map synergy drawing TA'ers to HB and vice versa. However, I believe it will take more than re-hashed maps or new glad point systems to really get activity up. PvP'ers like rewards and goals. GvG has rewards, HBs have rewards, HA obviously has rewards, and hell, even ABs have rewards. TA will need more than a gimped out title system to really make people want to play it. Considering that the new glad point system really didn't increase TA activity, I think it's clear at this point that the title track alone isn't drawing a huge crowd.

Actually, glad points has everything to do with this. Half the posts I look at concern people complaining about how stupid HB maps are because they take forever to end

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Sparco

i do agree they should keep HB shrines in HB...
if its jsut the maps without the shrines on TA there is no problem.

but ur saying bullshit,
- "Pve'rs play HB.."
first of all: they dont got the insight to know what to cap where to run who to attack etc.
2nd of all: they are Pve'rs zo they wont be pvping
3rd: they dont got perfect weapons,armor,skills,runes for all their heroes...
so if they would play it.. they would use pvp chars...

- "It was a chance to just go one on one as a team and see who the better fighters were."

isn't that the same in HB?
team vs team, the best wins.

- "Now we get to waste 10 minutes running around capping shrines and killing NPCs."

which NPC's do you kill then in TA with HB maps?
they only NPC that u can kill there are mercenarys (1 per map).
the priest map in TA.. that's also an NPC u dont whiine about that.

pls use real arguments why this HB map shit is shit and dont make them up.

and dont disrepect the HBers, most of em know alot more about pvp then all those RA/TAers.

the meta in HB sux atm with all those recalls and shit...
I dont know if the shrines are included in TA now but if it is A-Net is just testing what would happen to the HB meta when u let real players play instead of heroes.
they just trying to find a way to solve the gay meta of HB..

so dont whine.. its probably only just for 1 week.
though it would be shit if this stays with the shrines in TA..
cause then they just have to make a new arena..
1 arena: team arenas
the other one: team hero battles

GG you summed it up for me.

glountz · Nov 02, 2007, 06:19 PM // 18:19

I've now played extensively these maps, with guildies (TA) and alone (RA).
I maintain my point of view.

HB maps are bad for TA because:
* It's too long. People are used to Capping so it's a capping running around the maps, with ganking when an opponent try to cap alone (and then SP sins come). A match is around 5 minutes.
* It kills diversity. That's it. TA were one of the last place where you could find really weird, yet still effective, builds. Spirit camping is okay, but I forecast 2 sins + 2 support (monk+monk or monk + rit (spirit+healing or Weapon of Remedy); then a slight shift towards highly diversified HB Metagame (Joke). People will restrains their builds to what works on every map (remember glad title is with CONSECUTIVE WINS, so you can't gamble on the fact you won't fall upon those maps).
* It is not suited for it. Simply said. In the very core principle. What's next? Capping maps and kill counts in GvG?
* TA has its own balance. Some balance problems arise in TA that may have stayed unnoticed before. Like the A/mo deadly arts metagame. It was overpowered. But it was played only in RA/TA. Because it's powerful on head-on fights, with limited timing. Who would have discovered Deadly Paradox was OP then?
* That's not what TA needs. Just give us this f*cking ladder.

Why it's bad for RA:
* Well, must I explain why? High communication needing maps with random people just don't work.

Solutions :
* Add the maps, but remove the shrines for TA.
* Add a competitive battle based on capping 4v4 with only humans allowed (Copy-Paste Hero battle, but only human teams)
* Add a sealed deck costume brawl (I sense that the CB success was why they did this BS).

LifesRestorer · Nov 02, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by hartl

Would anyone mind to give reason except "omg wtf j00 cant combine TA with HB, its evil"?

Is using your brain every 4th Match really that painful?

So, over the years the game has seen multiple new professions and skills yet recieved no new slots in the skillbar. ever since the game started the idea of a 'balanced build' has been diluted so much that everything must meet certain requirements that are just unable to be fit into a skillbar with only 8 slots.

Not only does a character now have to be able to survive on its own, deal damage, have counters new more and more gimmicks, but now it must deal with the evergay builds of HB: ohaither D/P blindbot with mirage cloak. i cant kill you cause i cant hit you and i cant run away cause you got a speed buff and even if i could kill you you're probably more mobile than me cause mesmer (remove my enchants pliz) doesnt have a viable speed buff.

Welcome to Build wars: where player build > player skill.

this is just barely scraping the surface of the issue, not even looking at what it will do to the TA meta itself, how people will communicate in RA, hell, and if people continue to use these watered down no damage degenerate builds how many matches will end in the timer just reaching 0 RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing up the run for both teams.

CourtjeztA · Nov 02, 2007, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekelon

/agree

The fact still stands that you only have about 1/4 chance to draw an HB map. 4v4 human players in HB maps is WAY different from HB matches. 4v4 human players will net many more kills and faster (more offensive builds). Most of the games I played ended before 5:00 mark. In HB, most matches get to close to 0:00 unless I completely dominate them, and they resign.

Also, I can see reason for your complaining, but I think it's somewhat lame. Because of the fact that it's only 1/4 chance, and that most average TA players have crappy tactics, this is your chance rank 5+ glads to completely roll people on HB maps (in addition to annihilation maps). When you say, screw all the running, is it because your lazy? or is it because you don't want to think about tactics? As far as I can remember, Guild Wars is as much about tactics and player positioning as player skill. It's about time they innovated TA with what they have already had in GvG, HA, and HB. Now TA is slowly beginning to rise up in ranks and may finally get its much deserved recognition.

Hah, so yea, you'll dominate 1/4 of the maps, but what about the other 3/4? I don't think 4 monks are good in 4v4 annihilation maps...

------------------------------

The con of it all: Because TA will promote better players now with HB maps which require additional tactics/communication, it may discourage newer players from playing TA more than a couple matches. (This occurs more heavily in GvG, HA [rank discrim], and amazingly, it hasn't occured as much in HB, but is still there)

aiight Ekelon i see what your saying BUT....its TA !!! only 4 pplz....in gvg/HA you have 8 and yes EIGHT people to mess around with...TA you only have 4 people which is why killing is the best choice imo....then again your #1 Hero battler and anything to make TA easier for a HBer would ofcourse be the better choice right !?....haha

ok ok so say Anet says....ok guys were going to make gvg 6 on 6 now....this would screw allll of your tactics no !?....YES it would ! All I know is ANET better fix this or they will have 98% of TA not in there anymore and 2% of GW aka Ekelon and like 2 other people in TA now.

Aera · Nov 02, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by hartl

Would anyone mind to give reason except "omg wtf j00 cant combine TA with HB, its evil"?

Is using your brain every 4th Match really that painful?

I just play TA because of its simplicity. I play TA to relax. I play TA because I really like the simple concept of 4v4 deathmatch, which hardly requires any tactics.

Surely some people find it repetitive, but that hasn't stopped most TA players.
We simply haven't asked for another gametype, it's not the right kind of attention TA needs.

RoF · Nov 02, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekelon

rawr doesn't TA as a guild.

I know why.

Me and the rest of my noob guild (rating 940 not even ranked) played a team of rawr players the other night. I'm glad 2, none of my guildies are even ranked. We run cripslash, BA, curse nec, and monk so no gimmick. And we actually managed to kill lego who was running his PD mes. You do the math.

However they didn't have 2 copies of aegis, a bsurger, defensive anthem, or a ward, so i guess you really couldn't expect them to flawless us. But hey, I guess knowing how to use active prots is for noobs in TA, RA, and HB. </sarcasm>

BTW now my guildie can't go for a whole day without reminding us that he killed lego, lol.

Seamus Finn · Nov 02, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoF

curse nec...so no gimmick.

Uh................. no?