Curse

moriz · Nov 07, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

a properly equipped ranger CAN survive a SP sin spike, but only if they swap to their shield set (mine has +10AL vs piercing just for this purpose) and gain that +30hp. of course, interrupting the combo will do it too.

however, a ranger will have to commit to one of the options very quickly. a botched interrupt will result in a dead ranger. if he chooses the shield option, he'll have a 12 second window to kill the sin, or else he's forced to commit to the interrupt option on the next spike (troll unguent can't heal up to full in 12 seconds).

no matter what, the margin of error for the ranger is much smaller than the margin of error for the assassin. generally, if the ranger can survive the initial spike, he'll be fine since the assassin can't touch him for the next 12 seconds. it's the surviving part that can be tricky, and can depend on a lot on the circumstances.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 07, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Again, this proves your ranger is bad, and your guild needs better strategies too. A ranger should NEVER be up against 2 sins on his own. And against 1 sin, he'll never loose, and the sin has a high probability of dying unless he can escape or get saved.

And he'll never be up against 1 sin, because sins have the advantages of monks at their backs pretty much all the time, and if not then they've got recall.

Kaon · Nov 07, 2007, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Hi, my name is [skill]Expose Defenses[/skill]. People like to bring me.

Hi, my name is [skill]Savage Shot[/skill] and i've got a friend called [skill]Distracting Shot[/skill] everybody takes me with only trappers and thumpers as excemption

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The BoS+Impale variant? Uh, no.

Uh, yes. Unless you're a Polly wannabe and take a superior or major rune.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

There will be 2 in any actual match, and there will generally be a healer tailgating them as well. This is just hypothetical stuff meant to disprove the rather ridiculous statement that most bars can stand up to a SP spiker 1v1, which is even more ridiculous when most bars that do live through the spike don't even have a way to push their red bar back up in time for the next one.

Yes there will be 2, but someone stated that they can beat a ranger in 1v1 which is a load of liquid smelly donkeycrap. And your statement about them owning rangers too also proves your failure at guild wars. This is fine with me, but then don't try to impose bad statements on good people.

Oh, and for the record, it has happened me quite a lot that due to a chain of events that i was eye to eye with an assassin, they died usually, and escaped now and then. Stupid retards thinking they can beat a ranger 1on1 and teleporting into their own demise, HA!

sidenote: In last playoffs there was a retarded MSI sin that wanted to kill me (i was on bsurge) and i actually managed to solo him with orb and bsurge while i had no snare and he could've just ran away

moriz · Nov 07, 2007, 10:13 PM // 22:13

six months ago, i killed a SP sin.... using a monk runner when i was guesting. gale-interrupting feinted+wanding was pretty hax. i almost killed a BA ranger using the same tactic, but i galed myself out of energy. little bugger was a lot more resistant to wanding than i thought.

but that's hardly the point. SP sins still do a ridiculous amount of damage for how little effort it takes to play it. the margin of error for dealing with them is quite narrow, even for those who are skilled enough to do so.

nerfing them certainly won't hurt the game. i'm quite sure even you would agree with that statement, kaon.

(ps: stop e-peen stroking yourself. it is SO not cool)

Kaon · Nov 07, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

but that's hardly the point. SP sins still do a ridiculous amount of damage for how little effort it takes to play it. the margin of error for dealing with them is quite narrow, even for those who are skilled enough to do so.

nerfing them certainly won't hurt the game. i'm quite sure even you would agree with that statement, kaon.

(ps: stop e-peen stroking yourself. it is SO not cool)

I've agreed with that from the very start, and stated why, i have just reacted on a wrong and retarded statement because i liked to. This in term lured in more bad players which happily taught the basics of sins and rangers. In an aggressive and e-peen striking way because i like it, and because otherwise it would be boring and pointless.

Captain Robo · Nov 07, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

All I'm saying is that Rangers do not have a 100% advantage over SP Sins, and as we've established, a build can still be degenerate even if it can be beaten.

Rangers certainly have the advantage in this matchup, but it is nowhere near 100%. Interrupts help a lot, but the SP sin still has tricks to swing the match in his or her favor.

Riotgear · Nov 07, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Hi, my name is [skill]Savage Shot[/skill] and i've got a friend called [skill]Distracting Shot[/skill] everybody takes me with only trappers and thumpers as excemption

Hi, my name is terrain, I'm all over the place and I usually do a better job of blocking arrows than Expose Defenses. I'm all over the place. All of this considered, it should be pretty apparent that the timing and attention needed to stop the spike is certainly a hell of a lot greater than the amount needed to execute it. B-surge can get away with it more easily because B-surge casts pretty fast and instantly neutralizes them.

LifesRestorer · Nov 07, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

dont d-shot the expose d-shot the combo. nub.

kosh · Nov 07, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Hi, my name is [skill]Savage Shot[/skill] and i've got a friend called [skill]Distracting Shot[/skill] everybody takes me with only trappers and thumpers as excemption

.

LOL, this win by default.

Riot, leaving the e drama aside... there are ways to deal with sp/aod. some class is harder on then other but still viable. from the time u get hex til the time your being kd u have just about 2 sec of window... for a ranger thats just stride crip shot and the rest is just abusing the sin

im sure that we can find that most class can deal with it,as ppl stated. even with monks,ele, ranger.tanks.mes... maybe necros will die.. but there necros so there prob running heroway so who cares?

and yes sp/aod should get hit... range on shadow stepping for starts. impale prob also. soj sins should get a big hit( Signet of Toxic Shock and d daggers are retarded skills. less 123456 bar is hard to find.) . but will have to wait and see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Hi, my name is terrain, I block arrows but I don't block Expose Defenses.

ZzZz.

so hes blocking your arrows when hes on you??? did u ever play ranger?? or the game? dude for real. i have no clue what are you talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

dont d-shot the expose d-shot the combo. nub.

wait.. dammit im sure my ranger had 2 intrup and a crip shot

i can d shot the expose then i have 50% of blocking but il wait for the combo....gtfo. plz wow ppl. why do ppl with "Lack Of Talent " respond? or talk? and they add "nub" after making a statement with not even backing it up. go go go pve.

Riotgear · Nov 07, 2007, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by kosh

Riot, leaving the e drama aside...

Honestly I hope these posts all get deleted because 1v1 versus an SP spiker doesn't really happen unless your name is "Archer." I'm just addressing this hypothetical situation where a ranger has to solo an SP spiker.

Quote:

from the time u get hex til the time your being kd u have just about 2 sec of window...for a ranger thats just stride crip shot and the rest is just abusing the sin

Daggers with 33% IAS hit every 0.9 sec, so they're already on their third attack after 2 seconds.

Quote:

impale prob also. soj sins should get a big hit( Signet of Toxic Shock and d daggers are retarded skills. less 123456 bar is hard to find.) . but will have to wait and see.

Deadly Paradox is the problem with signet spikers, not two crappy skills that are getting overpowered by free non-elite 9 Fast Casting and Mantra of Recovery.

Quote:

so hes blocking your arrows when hes on you??? did u ever play ranger?? or the game? dude for real. i have no clue what are you talking about.

Because people shadow step in and then cast expose? OK.

Quote:

i can d shot the expose then i have 50% of blocking but il wait for the combo....gtfo.

If you d-shot the combo then they're completely useless for 30 seconds. You use Savage on expose and d-shot on the combo.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 07, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Daggers with 33% IAS hit every 0.9 sec, so they're already on their third attack after 2 seconds.

You're ignoring the .75 second aftercast that comes from casting Shadow Prison.

If you guys want to keep talking about 1v1s as if that was remotely relevant to Guild Wars, go ahead and start a new thread. I hear Riverside is a good place.

The balance of SP sins, and good ways to fix them, are still fair game. Sinsplit is one of the major outstanding balance issues right now.

ensoriki · Nov 07, 2007, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Durr SP is retarded >.>

Solution, add a Negative aspect to SP

I recommend
Cast shadow prison on target for 5--10 seconds that foe moves 66% slower and takes 30---5 less damage (people with 1 attribute in DA get screwed)

And with Sin casters, Just change deadly paradox's entire function >.> The current paradox bugs me >.> >.> >.>

and I expect to see this skill in pvp for years

[card]Black Lotus Strike[/card]
Easy energy management >.> sin's dont need that high an energy boost with critical strikes >.>

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 08, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Nerfing Shadow Prison into oblivion isn't going to disable that sin bar. It might weaken it a bit, but I can still just run Siphon Speed or Expose to meet the hex condition, and whatever other teleports I feel like bringing along.

If you want to stop sins from teleporting in and insta-gibbing people, you need to hit the combo itself. Nothing else will work.

moriz · Nov 08, 2007, 12:57 AM // 00:57

one of the things holding the SP bar together is the massive energy gain from black lotus strike. without it, the bar collapses from lack of energy.

so, a possible way to fix it is to lower the energy gain from BLS to 1...8.

however, it's still possible to get around this by using falling lotus strike as the followup to horns of the ox. the combined energy gain will balance the bar again, so we'll probably have to nerf falling lotus strike as well.

EDIT: .... or maybe not, since the attack chain would be very fragile, since you can disable half of it by simply standing next to npcs. another place i'd look at is impale. the damage can be lowered a bit.

Ego · Nov 08, 2007, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Shadowstep skills don't have an aftercast Squidget.

Go and try it out yourself.

ensoriki · Nov 08, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

I doubt 1-8 would be nice

12 is good tho (pays for itself and half of another attack)

And about using another hex

Damn right you could (back when SP sin was knew I replaced SP with AoD and changed the hex to wtf was it Shadowy Burden? OR Judges Insight...) Anyways my warrior guild made asked how he died >.>.

Squidget Not true man ...not true.

Pros about Shadow form
Hex -driggers Black line
- Strong Snare, and last long enough to get the main skills in
-shadow Step
-energy

Want to see suggestions

15 energy, 1 cast activation
Why?
Look at Siphon Strength >.> Look at how it would be for 5 energy or 10 energy, probably more common than SP sin >.>Temple Strike
Temple strike can be used, but its not the most common and 1 of the reasons (other than SP sin and Signet spike) is the energy >.>

Sin's have energy management, but not at the level that they'll spend 15 energy nilly willy.

basic sin with 25 energy
And sp sin with 15 energy 1 second cast

energy is dropped to 10, black lotus strike restores it to about 20 (+ 1.5 pipe of energy gain has passed, were using an IAS)
Twisting Fangs (down to 12.3 energy (gained 1 pip of energy from e-regen)
Black Spider Strike, now at about 8 energy, Blades of steel/Death Blossom/Horns

4 energy (gained another pip), they cant execute Feigned right away...that 4 energy cost!.

The math is raw (not totally accurate) doesnt factor in criticals or Zealous.

Really I rather Shadow prison just have 2 second activation. Its not nerfed severely in pve, and in PVP you can see it being activated and just throw up Block (on sins without expose) or preprot,Interrupt, You see it coming.

20 energy would balance shadow prison combo out nicely, but would nerf the skill into the point that using it in a way not of that combo is not likely...and demoralizing variety is bad (Typically they'd run out of energy for a bit at Black Spider Strike, tap there 2nd dual as soon as they can, and still would be able to activate feigned right after the combo)

So 2/3 activation time and 25 recharge?

Riotgear · Nov 08, 2007, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

You're ignoring the .75 second aftercast that comes from casting Shadow Prison.

That's because Shadow Prison, like all shadow steps, does not have an aftercast.

Trivia: Augury of Death doesn't either, and I think I know why.

Quote:

Nerfing Shadow Prison into oblivion isn't going to disable that sin bar. It might weaken it a bit, but I can still just run Siphon Speed or Expose to meet the hex condition, and whatever other teleports I feel like bringing along.

At least with Siphon Speed they have to worry about positioning and with Expose they have to worry about getting kited. SP is ridiculous mainly because it serves four very powerful roles: Providing a low-recharge shadow step, preventing the target from kiting, providing a primer for Black Lotus Strike, and providing a fast cover for Expose.

It's important to note also the changes that were made on Nightfall's release, which have all played parts in this: SP was introduced, BoS was buffed from +50, BLS was buffed from 20 recharge, and Black Spider Strike was introduced. Expose was 10/1/10 at that point, Siphon Speed has been the same since launch. Impale had not been buffed at that point.

Since this sort of crap wasn't around pre-Nightfall, it begs the question: Why weren't people doing it before? Why weren't people running Expose/Siphon+BLS+Horns+Falling+Twisting before if SP is so non-essential to the bar and Siphon/Expose works fine? SoD wasn't good then either. It's simple, because you will get kited, you are announcing your targets far in advance every time, you DO have to deal with the aftercast on both Expose and Siphon, and having a low-recharge shadow step was more important. SP solved all of that, it provides everything that bar needs to work that it didn't used to have.

The other reason is that it didn't used to be so worth it to funnel everything into one attack chain, but Black Spider Strike (and now Impale) have provided ways to put Blades of Steel on the bar, which has had a major effect on its lethality.

BLS getting dropped to 12 recharge certainly helps it in its current context, increasing it to 20 would have a major impact on its effectiveness at the stand in GvG, but I don't think that's really solving the major problems that are introduced by SP itself.

ensoriki · Nov 08, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

BoS>.> 10 energy Riotgear I dont agree

Well the pvpers here may say I have alot of [card]Ignorace[/card]
Im gonna preach.

according to Guildwiki this is the amount of skills you need for the maximum damage
Dagger Mastery 0-3 4 5-6 7-9 10-12 13-19 20+
Other skills needed N/A 7 6 5 4 3 2
As you can see with 13 dagger mastery its simply 3 Additional Skills!?
That owuld be Lead offhand offhand(and you still get that 120 damage)
However with 10-12 its 4 skills, Dual Lead attack dual off hand Blades of steel
7-9 is 5 attack skills so Dual Lead off hand dual offhand Blades of steel.

You need to use a minimum of 3 Attack skills at 13! (and in order to save attribute points a Major Rune would be used, resulting in Maximum Hp Loss! Although Minor can be used >.>)
Lets say you use the Major rune, now you have lost -35 hp (yes you can negate that, but you had to use runes too....either way your hp would of been higher)

You need 3 skills more 4 skills on your bar IN TOTAL
for Off hand-dual-offhand this is no problem, but with less than 13, where are you putting that 5th skill on your slot (4 skills+ Bos = 5)

BoS, is made so that you have to use up alot of space On your skillbar to power it, however because of Off-hand Dual offhand it becomes to the point where it's condition of maximum damage is easier to meet.

10 energy isn't the best way IMO to fix it.

Either boost the req to 14 dagger mastery, or make it so that Some Dual attacks Disable all your off hand attacks (except moebius) for lets say 5 seconds, and then BoS cannot be exploided by the SP sin, the same way it is now.

And for 10 energy, just use Death Blossom. you still get +80 armor ignoring damage.

Riotgear · Nov 08, 2007, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Rewrote my previous post.

BoS should be 10 energy because the amount of straight damage it delivers approaches the amount that Twisting Fangs delivers with the DW included, and Impale has made the lack of actual DW a moot point. Of course, the damage should probably be dropped as well. It got buffed because no one was running it, but that was at a time when BSS didn't exist, so Horns was mandatory for a second lead skip, and Twisting was mandatory for DW, so there wasn't really any room for it.

Quote:

And for 10 energy, just use Death Blossom. you still get +80 armor ignoring damage.

I'd rather see that happen. Death Blossom is fine, BoS is not.

ensoriki · Nov 08, 2007, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Impale is for DM DA builds, not CS DM builds.

However people are using CS DM builds and just adding impale for deepwound.

Solution
Impale: 5 Deadly Arts or Less 50% chance of failure

Blades of steel.

For each NON Attack Skill you take 5.....40 damage >.>

Still not bad in pve, (although who uses it in pve) in pvp though for that mean's a sin using bos may take 160, 120 damage just for using it.

I don't like the 10 energy, because the scenario your comparing it to is that in the off-hand-dual-offhand environment its Really strong, however in a basic chain of

Lead off Hand Blades of steel its not as strong , but with Lead,Lead,Offhand Bos >.> You get the same damage from BOS but not 2 dual's (and duals do the most damage)

Case in point, out of your reason that

OfH (offhand) Dual Ofh BoS Impale, its not bad

Lead, Lead Offhand Bos Impale is not as strong, because it lacks that second dual.

personally I dont think bos was INTENDED to be used with another off hand IN the combo.

If you can fix it so that only 1 dual attack can be on the bar >.> You show me BoS's imbalance >.>

There are ways to Balance skills, while still allowing them to be viable.

Making Shadow Prison 50% fail with less than 6 Deadly Arts is nice too.