Curse

Tab · Nov 05, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

You have no clue what you are talking about, try reading the thread. Monks are being hated this much because it makes offensive splitting so hard.

wuzzman · Nov 05, 2007, 07:44 PM // 19:44

for who? Zb monk ain't going to protect your base against a Warrior + Ranger gank.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 05, 2007, 08:00 PM // 20:00

that's only true if your runner is terrible.

DIH49 · Nov 05, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Frozen Burst is the only 'problem snare' in water magic though, everything else either lasts quite short or has an insane recharge or in the case of deep freeze an insane energy cost and cast time.

Freezing Gust is just as problematic. Remember the Gust/Trident meta? That was fun to have on your flagger 24/7. Blurred Vision spam on recharge is quite brutal as well, a nice AoE 50% miss hex with a very short recharge and a moderate cast time makes for a nasty anti-warrior template. There are plenty of annoying and silly skills in the water line, and I just don't buy these arguments that it's a better situation to have permasnares on your physicals than it is to have a tool capable of heavily punishing such things. HEV certainly is powerful, but it stops all sorts of things that I wouldn't like to see happening from happening.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

frozen burst is probably the easiest spell in the game to punish, because the ele runs right up to you and gets to stand there for a long time after using it thanks to aftercast.

I don't buy this argument at all. First off, the enemy warriors are debilitated for having water snares all over them coupled with Blurred Vision. Probably KD spam too since you'd run Trident on a Burst bar. Second, enemy warriors training up your one water ele is hardly that big a threat. You give him some prot, and in return for the energy expenditure on that you have heavily snared warriors. Snared warriors do no real damage, and so your monks get to save and regen energy. I seriously wonder if people remember the meta right after Frozen Burst got buffed. It was not so simple to deal with as people think, and it is precisely the reason people started bringing HEV as the only skill that was an effective counter.

Lorekeeper · Nov 05, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

It was not so simple to deal with as people think, and it is precisely the reason people started bringing HEV as the only skill that was an effective counter.

But the problem is... HEV as the only counter is also too good as a counter to water hexes... so good that flag stand water eles dont see much play at all.

I understand the need for an adequate counter to water snares, although im not too sure that preveils and interrupts are not enough already, but if i accept your point that they are not, the need for an adequate counter does not justify a counter that puts water snares out of the game... is that at least a reasonable statement?

and i think its been established that the problem most people have with HEV is not its ability to remove hexes anyway... its the aoe shatter enchant that you give the enemy if you have a flag stand water ele... tone that down and running flag stand water eles will not be such a dangerously double edged sword anymore. They will still be able to remove water snares...

DIH49 · Nov 05, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

But the problem is... HEV as the only counter is also too good as a counter to water hexes... so good that flag stand water eles dont see much play at all.

Yeah, I get that. My question is, so what? Plenty of stuff doesn't get run because the meta isn't suited for it, what's so special about water eles?

Lorekeeper · Nov 05, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

Yeah, I get that. My question is, so what? Plenty of stuff doesn't get run because the meta isn't suited for it, what's so special about water eles?

Well, of all the viable pvp templates, the flag stand water ele used to be one of them, its not like the list of viable pvp templates is that huge to start with so missing the flag stand water ele from the list is quite significant in terms of build diversity and choice. And what makes it even sadder is that its pretty obvious what is taking the water ele off the viable pvp template list... HEV. Its SO effective against water eles its not funny. Tone down HEV and perhaps give people the choice to run flag stand water ele... whether everyone rushes to run them is another thing but at least the bsurge ele will not be THE only viable flag stand ele template potentially use.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 05, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

A part of me is glad to see strong snare templates removed from the meta, because it makes warrior play so much more interesting. Strong snare templates lock you in your current battlefield position - if you're at the flagstand, you can't leave the flagstand. The rise of Water Eles and Cripshot rangers is entirely responsible for the fact that warriors can't run off and solo any longer. There's also the fact that Dom mesmers have been reduced to a single good elite choice, and knocking that last option out is going to seriously hurt the template.

It really comes down to whether you want an incredibly strong snare template in the meta or not. Strong snare templates weaken splitting and make comebacks much harder, but they also reward skill as a flagstand character. If the kind of meta you can enjoy is one where that template dominates, I can see why you'd want HEV nerfed.

erk · Nov 06, 2007, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Monks don't carry snares. I way prefer a ZB monk trying to stop me from killing the next archer then a SoR ele who spams freezing gust and SoR till his warrior friend comes.

A SoR Ele is one of the few still viable defenses against the overused/over powerful Sin-split gank.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 06, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

It really comes down to whether you want an incredibly strong snare template in the meta or not. Strong snare templates weaken splitting and make comebacks much harder, but they also reward skill as a flagstand character. If the kind of meta you can enjoy is one where that template dominates, I can see why you'd want HEV nerfed.

Several water snares could be hit as well as HEV to make water eles a viable but not overpowered template again.

Burst is the most obvious one, trident and blurred could be toned down a little too, I don't really see gust as that much of a problem though as you can really only snare one person with it and it has to be reapplied quite often as well as being incompatible with other water snares (as well as blurred).

I disagree about HEV being the only good mesmer elite though, I think it's crap, it only warrants the elite slot because if you do run into a water ele you basically nullify it just by having HEV on your bar and it's a really good spike tool if you happen to run into a hex build. The reason people still take it is because none of the alternatives really stand out, surge is really nothing more than a spike tool, MoR is pointless now and PBlock costs too much energy.

As for the 'why dont people run offensive flaggers anymore' the main reason it fell out of favor was the weapon of warding nerf, I think by buffing weapon of warding (slightly) and mending grip, this could somewhat bring them back.

However in the current meta they would still be unfavorable to run because sin splits are so prevalent.

Riotgear · Nov 06, 2007, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

There's also the fact that Dom mesmers have been reduced to a single good elite choice, and knocking that last option out is going to seriously hurt the template.

Dom mesmers have only had a few good elite choices ever to begin with, E-surge, P-block, HEV, MoR, and.... uh.... Taint. Hasn't really stopped them from becoming mainstays, p-leak and Diversion are the real core of any Dom bar anyway.

Vaga · Nov 06, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

The ideal flagstand ele was what used to be run in Te balanced that had like 3 snares a ward, bflash, heal party, draw... To me thats the only time I really liked water snares. The pure snare bar's are pretty ridiculous. Shatter hex is a pretty balanced counter for water eles though so even if hev isn't strong against them they could probably be balanced properly. I wouldn't mind even just having a few viable water snares so they could be more easily dealt with using something like veil.

Mesmers have never been about their elite, tbh they don't need them. Who cares if e-surge and hev are the only viable elites?

I'd love to see hev reworked so it is really strong against hex STACKING teams, even though some matches it would be extremely bad it's another tool that a balanced build needs.

Sin's need a nerf and maps for AT's need to be random to bring back offensive runners imo.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 06, 2007, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Burst is the most obvious one, trident and blurred could be toned down a little too, I don't really see gust as that much of a problem though as you can really only snare one person with it and it has to be reapplied quite often as well as being incompatible with other water snares (as well as blurred).

I think Gust gets underestimated a bit, and it's the skill that really pushed water eles into a new level of power post-Nightfall. Before Gust, water eles had to work very hard to get that maintainable single-target snare, and no skill quite fit the job. You ended up either spamming AoE snares like Deep Freeze and Ice Spikes, or commiting yourself with Ice Prison and hoping you don't get into a situation where the other team can pull your hex. All of these hexes also came with long cast times, making them vulnerable to disruption. The end result was a snare template that was powerful, but ultimately vulnerable to disruption and removal.

Gust is a big deal, because pre-Nightfall, maintaining a snare irrevocably on someone was a big deal. The short recharge and relatively low cost tends to ensure that Gust wins fights against removal, and allows you to keep one target under 66% snare no matter what.

I would agree that Blurred and Burst are both strong skills, and Burst is absolutely a problem, but don't underestimate Gust. It's at least a solid skill, and at most, it's one of the major reasons snares were so much stronger post-Nightfall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I disagree about HEV being the only good mesmer elite though, I think it's crap, it only warrants the elite slot because if you do run into a water ele you basically nullify it just by having HEV on your bar and it's a really good spike tool if you happen to run into a hex build. The reason people still take it is because none of the alternatives really stand out, surge is really nothing more than a spike tool, MoR is pointless now and PBlock costs too much energy.

HEV doesn't feel like a power elite when you're playing with it, because you'll often go entire matches without using it. The real power of the skill is in the threat it presents. Water eles are an incredibly strong offensive/defensive template. I want to run them all the time. I can't though, because there's a chance the opposition will have HEV and I'll be fighting 7v8. When a single skill can push one of the most powerful midline templates completely out of the metagame, it's hard to argue that the skill itself isn't strong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Dom mesmers have only had a few good elite choices ever to begin with, E-surge, P-block, HEV, MoR, and.... uh.... Taint. Hasn't really stopped them from becoming mainstays, p-leak and Diversion are the real core of any Dom bar anyway.

Currently, I can agree on HEV and Taint being viable elites. The rest simply aren't worth running, and even Taint isn't much good outside of certain kinds of builds.

The difference between only having a few viable elites and only having one is pretty big in Guild Wars terms. I can't think of a single template that has ever had more than a few viable elites. Even old school sword warriors were picking from a pretty thin list.

Ensign · Nov 06, 2007, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I think Gust gets underestimated a bit, and it's the skill that really pushed water eles into a new level of power post-Nightfall.

Disagree wholeheartedly; a serious Water bar doesn't touch Freezing Gust. Freezing Gust is a tool for a diverse bar with only a couple of water skills, with it being the only or one of a very limited number of snares. Bars packing Deep Freeze and Frozen Burst won't even look at Freezing Gust. Essentially, once you're far enough into Water to justify Water Attunement, Freezing Gust becomes weak. Gust has value as a skill because you can pump a lot of energy through that skill slot for a decent enough effect, but it's not a power skill by any stretch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I want to run them all the time. I can't though, because there's a chance the opposition will have HEV and I'll be fighting 7v8.

That's pretty much how it goes; if you bring a water Ele that character is 100% useless in any fight that involves HEV. Any hex that goes on Warriors suffers the same fate, in fact. We joke that HEV wins the game on load against any team that brings any sort of stand hexer. That's a pretty powerful elite, especially when you consider that virtually every offensive caster in the game relies on hexes to be effective.

Riotgear · Nov 06, 2007, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The difference between only having a few viable elites and only having one is pretty big in Guild Wars terms. I can't think of a single template that has ever had more than a few viable elites. Even old school sword warriors were picking from a pretty thin list.

For most classes it is. Change the elite on a ranger leaving the rest of the bar the same, the difference is huge. Dom mesmers have never been that elite-reliant in the first place, the fact that Taint winds up on them should be testament to that. They'd fill the slot with Expel if it came down to it, you could make Diversion an elite and it wouldn't even make much of a difference.

HEV isn't what I'd call a dependable elite or even a build staple, but when it has fuel, it's downright scary.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 06, 2007, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Disagree wholeheartedly; a serious Water bar doesn't touch Freezing Gust. Freezing Gust is a tool for a diverse bar with only a couple of water skills, with it being the only or one of a very limited number of snares. Bars packing Deep Freeze and Frozen Burst won't even look at Freezing Gust. Essentially, once you're far enough into Water to justify Water Attunement, Freezing Gust becomes weak. Gust has value as a skill because you can pump a lot of energy through that skill slot for a decent enough effect, but it's not a power skill by any stretch.

I agree completely, Gust is more something for a hybrid ele than a pure water ele.

Quote:

That's pretty much how it goes; if you bring a water Ele that character is 100% useless in any fight that involves HEV. Any hex that goes on Warriors suffers the same fate, in fact. We joke that HEV wins the game on load against any team that brings any sort of stand hexer. That's a pretty powerful elite, especially when you consider that virtually every offensive caster in the game relies on hexes to be effective.

This is definately true, but would you still run HEV if you actually had any real alternatives? Right now surge is the only other elite thats even remotely worth running, and it's basically just as effective as burn as it's used on spikes 90% of the time.

jaeharys targaryen · Nov 06, 2007, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

for who? Zb monk ain't going to protect your base against a Warrior + Ranger gank.

your posts are just as godawful here as they are on gwo. you have no idea what your talking about.

jaeharys targaryen · Nov 06, 2007, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I think Gust gets underestimated a bit, and it's the skill that really pushed water eles into a new level of power post-Nightfall.

Have to agree with ensign. gust is a versatile skill, but, as he put it, a dedicated water ele wont give it teh time of day. i was in presearing and shing jea when nightfall was defining the meta(i.e. idk the bars), so perhaps it wasnt dedicated water bars that had freezing gust?

Lodurr · Nov 06, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Water eles are an incredibly strong offensive/defensive template. I want to run them all the time. I can't though, because there's a chance the opposition will have HEV and I'll be fighting 7v8. When a single skill can push one of the most powerful midline templates completely out of the metagame, it's hard to argue that the skill itself isn't strong.

Why not put Armor of Mist on his bar and have him swap with the flag runner if the other team has HEV?

I agree HEV is too valuable in its niche role, but I like the skill's concept--it doesn't nuke hexes like Expel, instead it punishes the other team for hexing your warriors, and it takes timing and coordination to get the best use out of it. I think one of Izzy's mininerfs might actually be called for in HEV's case.

moriz · Nov 06, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

we've moved pretty far off topic.

so um... what to do about bloodspike:

vamp gaze/whatever bloodspike skills:

change functionality to: hex spell: after 1 second, you steal x heal from target foe. reduce casting time for all of them down by 1 second to compensate. the onces already at 1 sec cast should be 1/4 sec cast.

ups, i kaeled bloodzpiek.