Curse

Anata · Oct 29, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Infuse is not really needed if both the monks could land their big prots in advance. However, infuse is still useful if you are the kind of person that makes a lot of mistakes or if you are facing b spike...

Bankai · Oct 29, 2007, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Words of comfort is better against pure degen than RoF.

That's all I can think of. And signet of rejuvenation was supposed to be an easy way to heal warriors, but LoD takes care of that. So it's just a free heal.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 29, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

dR proves that infuse isn't required, however I still think it's a useful skill, sometimes you cant pre-prot because you're not in range, were kd'd etc.

In those kind of situations having infuse is really nice as prots arent gonna heal someone up quickly.

I do find that a lot of LoD monks use infuse way too much, it should really be a last resort skill (apart from vs bloodspike that is)

Thomas.knbk · Oct 29, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

dR proves that infuse isn't required if you're Tommy

yeah,
123456

Knowledge · Oct 29, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

dR proves that infuse isn't required, however I still think it's a useful skill, sometimes you cant pre-prot because you're not in range, were kd'd etc.

In those kind of situations having infuse is really nice as prots arent gonna heal someone up quickly.

I do find that a lot of LoD monks use infuse way too much, it should really be a last resort skill (apart from vs bloodspike that is)

I'll have to agree with you again on the part where you find a lot of LoD monks use Infuse way too much.

When I play LoD, I often find myself not using it, preferring the Prot Spirit over the Infuse. If I know I get Prot Spirit on a target getting spiked, I'll like refuse to Infuse unless I see the target is sitting at like 1 HP. You get the idea.

Oh yeah, the secret to beating Blood Spike w/o Infuse is SoA. It takes a lot of identification, communication, and some quick reactions.
- First you have to identify what skills they are using on each spike. If its Oppressive Gaze, you have to identify the target being spiked by the Necros Animation.
- SoA the target. SoA will negate a ton of the Shadow Damage from Oppressive Gaze allowing monks to heal through the Life Steal.
- After SoA, RC should RoF and RC. Of if SoD, RoF then Dismiss. Possibly a Gift there after.
- The LoD should RoF, Dwaynas. Possibly follow with a Dismiss for the bonus heal.

Of course, this is assuming your Warriors/Midline aren't balled up and get spiked with the actual target.

Also, communication of the intended target is required as both monks have to know who to heal.

You might be doubting this, but it works. When I guested LS recently, I was the Monk and we faced a Blood Spike. They had me turtled by myself without any support. I was able to keep up the Knights through 2 spikes, the only difference is I had ZB. The Bodyguard also took 2 spikes to get down. I kept up the NPCs long enough for my team to kill their Lord and we won the match.

This amount of time, is definately valuable in the long run as your Warriors/Midline should have built up enough pressure on the B-Spike. When they Spike with Blood Drinker/Angorodon's Gaze:
- Same things apply as the Oppressie Gaze spike as far as communication identification
- But instead of SoA, LoD must time LoD to land when the spike lands and Dwaynas thereafter.
- RC, must Gift the target.

This one is going to be completely harder/impossible to stop b/c of the pure life steal. You may not even want to try stopping this spike unless you have a ZB runner.

68 x 8 = 544
79 x 8 = 632
Totaling: 1376 Life Steal.
Of which you can negate, 75 + 57 + 105/114 (Depending on Healing Spec for Gift of HP): 237 HP/246 HP

Yeah, it's going to be impossible to stop this spike w/o Disruption.

Snow Bunny · Oct 29, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Judging from I've seen on obs mode lately, it's been this. I've been seeing a lot of 3 monk bars

ZB, LoD, SoD
LoD, LoD, SoD
LoD, SoD, RC

There you go.

PnH is a terrible elite.

Bankai · Oct 29, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

On the infuse remark- this remembers me of some guy I was forced to monk with some time ago. He used infuse all the freaking time. When somebody took about 200 health, he already infused. Aweful pressure for me, the prot monk, as I was constantly fighting to keep him alive.

pah01 · Oct 29, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

i prob played with him, was he insane on vent?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 29, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowledge

Oh yeah, the secret to beating Blood Spike w/o Infuse is SoA. It takes a lot of identification, communication, and some quick reactions.

Just interrupt 2-3 spikers on every spike.

Seamus Finn · Oct 29, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I actually agree with you in this case, having looked at it more. While two LoDs can be useful against a lot of builds, it's more effective on a runner than a stand character.

This is pretty map dependant, in my opinion. I haven't put together an LoD bar runner I wouldn't push all over the map. Unless you are playing on burning, the LoD runner can be a liability compared to other more durable runners.

beorntheold · Oct 29, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

What would you prot with on an RC monk? SB? You have that too on a SoD monk, guardian is definately a useful spell but it's not a spikecounter, and SoD with the new duration isn't such a bad anti pressure skill if you need to defend a certain character (e.g. a flagger running the flag in)

well, yeah. i'd pre-prot with guardian as much as i can, counter spikes with quick SB+RoF and hope the healer is paying attention.

don't get me wrong, i loved SoD. it needed to be toned down, but they took it a little too far, imho. 7s would've been perfect.

back on the topic - my first idea the moment i read they nerfed SoD was "SoD + ZB on the main team, move the team heal to the runner". LoD is an extremely powerful skill, far be it from me to dispute that, but i think the synergy between two prots, their combined capability to counter the building up of pressure (as opposed to countering the effects of the pressure) and the double Aegis will be a good flexible alternative.

perhaps something along the lines of

monk 1: Monk/Elementalist (14 prot, 13 div)

- Reversal of Fortune
- Dismiss Condition
- Shield of Deflection {E}
- Signet of Devotion
- Divine Spirit
- Aegis
- Glyph of Lesser Energy
- Deny Hexes

monk 2: Monk/Elementalist (14 prot, 13 div)

- Reversal of Fortune
- Dismiss Condition
- Guardian
- Spirit Bond
- Zealous Benediction {E}
- Aegis
- Glyph of Lesser Energy
- Holy Veil

+ HP on the runner?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 29, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

I dont think this is that viable, ZB is usually not gonna give very good results at the stand because of the risk involved when you let a target drop to <50% health before healing it up with a 3/4s cast skill, of course SoD can sort of act like a safety net, but outside of situations where most of the pressure comes from hex/conditions as opposed to physical damage I really don't think this is that viable.

Also having an LoD runner will likely mean that you will have to switch your runner with your ZB stand monk if you run into any dedicated splits, this will mean that you have a ZB monk whose bar is not that suited for splits seeing as it was intended to be a stand monk and an LoD monk that's not that suited to be at the stand, seeing as it was intended to be a flagger.

assassin of the god · Nov 01, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I actually agree with you in this case, having looked at it more. While two LoDs can be useful against a lot of builds, it's more effective on a runner than a stand character.

One thing to bear in mind is that, as you play better and better opponents, it gets harder and harder to protect that single point of failure. While there are a lot of tricks you can do to hide your LoD (cancelling casts, fast-cast sets, prots, ect), you're relying on enemy mistakes, and someone like Champ or Yue is still going to get it eventually. Likewise, as frontlines and damage characters get better, they become more capable of taking advantage during the window when LoD is down. Good monks might go through entire matches against low and mid-range opponents without ever using that second LoD. But when you're playing a strong team with an agressive and disruptive gameplan, it can help to prevent a wipe.

Add that to the fact that several strong overload builds at the moment rely on destroying your LoD monk's ability to cast and a second LoD is definitely worth bringing into some matchups.

Not to say there aren't alternatives that are also worth bringing. But dual LoD does have a place in the current meta, and I'm not suprised it saw play in a lot of monthly matches.

Well somewhat. While carrying 2 lods will help safeguard against getting simply overloaded by damage that cannot be outhealed if lod goes down, it leaves you much more vulnerable to quick, constant spikes/pressure with decent damage because the energy on bar(aegis, no gole) is just impossible when aegis and lod don't mop up pressure and the other monk isnt pumping out power heals through rc and soft prots.

Wow, that was a long sentence.

I Angra I · Nov 01, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Two LoD monks is really the logical choice right now imo. Sure RC is good, but most guilds only bring it because there's nothing else that's good. Just like how BLight was the only good elite back in Factions and monks ran two of those, LoD is really the only good/best elite right now, so why not run two of them. It's such an important skill and so devastating when one is shut down, having two of them would be really beneficial, as other people have stated already.

The LoD/RC combo is still nice though, and I don't think it's necessarily bad. I guess it just depends on the meta or who you're coming up against in ATs.

moriz · Nov 01, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

one alternative is to have essentially two runners: an LoD and probably a ZB (or maybe even BLight :S) monk. it's possible to build both monks to be able to run flags and function at the stand, and alternate them depending on what you come up against.

problem is, doing so will result in two character with slightly diminished performance both at the stand and running/base defending, since it's rather difficult to do both with on one character.

reason i'm suggesting this is because the LoD runner doesn't seem to be a very durable base defender. it doesn't have a high prot and powerful single-target heal of the ZB runner. it doesn't have the water snares and damage reduction/health regen of the SoR runner, and it doesn't have the passive pressure of the WoR runner. all it can do is... spam LoD, some small prots, and small single target (often target other ally) heals.

xhappy feetx · Nov 01, 2007, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Might see a return from Healers boon or maybe Glimmer...., I run a standard LoD infuse, RC, and a ZB runner, 3 guardians plus the extra condi removal justifies taking out SoD...

Snow Bunny · Nov 01, 2007, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by xhappy feetx

Might see a return from Healers boon or maybe Glimmer...., I run a standard LoD infuse, RC, and a ZB runner, 3 guardians plus the extra condi removal justifies taking out SoD...

No HB, no Glimmer.

Might as well just take a second LoD.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 01, 2007, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

Two LoD monks is really the logical choice right now imo. Sure RC is good, but most guilds only bring it because there's nothing else that's good. Just like how BLight was the only good elite back in Factions and monks ran two of those, LoD is really the only good/best elite right now, so why not run two of them. It's such an important skill and so devastating when one is shut down, having two of them would be really beneficial, as other people have stated already.

The LoD/RC combo is still nice though, and I don't think it's necessarily bad. I guess it just depends on the meta or who you're coming up against in ATs.

2x LoD is terrible, the only reason to run 2x lod is if you fear your first one will be shut down and even then it's still stupid to run LoD on both your stance monks.

Greedy Gus · Nov 01, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

I'm actually really surprised this 2 flagstand LoD monks theorycrafting got / is getting so much traction, even from intelligent players. Seems like people finally really started understanding the importance of LoD in today's defenses (and shutting it down for offenses), but didn't look at anything else before making the leap that if a skill is good, more of it would be better. Regardless of whether LoD as a skill is better than RC or SoD, there are too many factors that go against the dual LoD conclusion.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the only important match with a successful dual LoD backline been honk/NoT extremely building against iQ's hexway a few months back in a single game?

Especially with monk backlines, whatever is most successful tends to spread like wildfire, and historically the theory behind why things are particularly effective comes after they've been used to great success; in-game trends don't typically follow public forum theorycraft.

Yue · Nov 01, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35

DeeR's also been running dual lod. It works ok in practice, and that's really only because you can fit all the prots you need between the bars.