Curse

A Lustful Thrust · Oct 27, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

You're an idiot, no one wants to nerf healing prayers.

Healing skills that people use:
--Kiss
--Rejuv
--LoD
--WoC
--GoH
--Infuse

If I can count correctly, that's 6 out of 38. I didn't say nerf healing prayers, I said they need to get buffed, because these are the only 6 worth running because all the others are incredibly bad or have no potential use in GvG. If there's only 6 worth using, why are the other 32 in there? I won't even get into shitty divine favor skills either.

Monk skills, in general, need to be buffed because most teams rely on their LoD on keeping them up under team pressure and team degen, which means either the other skills are too weak or LoD is too strong, and LoD definitely isn't too strong.

glountz · Oct 27, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Aura of Faith?
Ok I -----> [ ]

Greedy Gus · Oct 27, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

No. Both are protting actively at all times.

When you're playing an LoD monk do you do nothing but spam LoD?

Of course the 2nd monk is using their other skills, no one would just /afk. I'm saying that the 2nd copy of LoD is not doing anything while the other one is up, outside of insane degen, because of the 80% clause. The main point is that the healer template is not as strong as the gift guy, outside of LoD itself.

moriz · Oct 27, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

i think it comes down to whether we expect LoD to be shut down or not, and whether if we can survive long enough when it's shut down to break the other team.

if we go into every gvg with the assumption that LoD will be shut down at one point or another, and that we don't have enough passive defense and secondary healing to survive, dual LoD might just be the way to go. after all, everything offered by a RC monk can be more or less accomplished on a second LoD monk (draw, mending touch, protting).

if we are confident enough that LoD won't be shut down, and that we can depend on passive defense and secondary healing to stabilize the team long enough for LoD to come back, then obviously the RC+LoD backline is the strongest.

i guess it's all personal preference.

twicky_kid · Oct 27, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

I'd still chose RC + LoD because of flexibility. I don't really know why people consider RC weak vs spike. It is slower but the heal is massive. Removing cripple, condi degen, and DW while healing 66 (14 prot) for each one is huge. Removing DW that would have cut all your other healing by 20% without fail is key. Its weak vs Blood spike but anything less than infuse is weak.

RC is weak in split but so is SoD and LoD so not much difference there.

tricolorsp · Oct 28, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

RC is weak in split but so is SoD and LoD so not much difference there.

and than you pretty much failed again

moriz · Oct 28, 2007, 12:14 AM // 00:14

SoD is a pretty mediocre split template. it's better than LoD, but is still not particularly good. it's inability to push redbars up pretty much negates the strong prot.

TheOneMephisto · Oct 28, 2007, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

SoD is a pretty mediocre split template. it's better than LoD, but is still not particularly good. it's inability to push redbars up pretty much negates the strong prot.

Not as if it matters. No monks besides runners have really been good in split since the BLight era (unless you count a short experimentation stage with ZB). That's one of the things now, you don't need a monk that's good in a split because all splits run with a third monk/rit/half-monk ele that precludes the need to really split up your monks.

erk · Oct 28, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

another LoD?

/agree

If you are clutching at straws to find anything better than LoD at the stand, then just have two.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 28, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

2 LoD monks at the stand is stupid tbh, a LoD runner is sensible on some maps the only time you ever really need a 2nd LoD though is when your first is shut down.

rohara · Oct 28, 2007, 03:40 PM // 15:40

i still use sod...the nerf was annoying, but it didn't kill the skill. 10 seconds isn't a terribad recharge for such a gud spell.

a 2nd lod seems counterproductive, just as zb. too prone to wasted casts. zb is fine for a split monk or runner, but not great at the stand.

Bankai · Oct 28, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

I guess that the Monthly showed is that dual LoD isn't bad, especially on burning.

assassin of the god · Oct 29, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

If you need an extra LoD(for healing splits, vs a team you know is gunna run condis,ect.) , you run it on a flagger.

2 LoDs at the flag stand is baed because that entire character is geared toward LoD so much that running two against anything but 5 hexers messes other things up.

I only post here when I get to disagree with Squidget.

Life Sheath needs 1/4 cast.

twicky_kid · Oct 29, 2007, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by assassin of the god

Life Sheath needs 1/4 cast.

It needs a lot more than that. Right now SB prevents more dmg with 2 procs.

beorntheold · Oct 29, 2007, 07:35 AM // 07:35

dual LoDs? don't see a downside? interesting...
how about having two 3-attribute monks instead of one? how about the overhealing and/or having both monks constantly coordinating over voice chat? how about the loss of flexibility? how about one of the elite slot being totally wasted against spikier teams?

at least with RC you can take off the cond. rem. duty off the midline.

idea: Empathic Removal prot? you have 2 cond. removals and 2 hex. removals on a 2-attr. bar. the more the pressure the more useful it becomes. (10 sec rech. SoD is a liability, imho. the enemy team fakes or just pressures one target, you SoD, they're all over you for a looong time; guardian is a bit slow against a good team, but still helluva lot better than the nerfed SoD)

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 29, 2007, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by assassin of the god

I only post here when I get to disagree with Squidget.

I actually agree with you in this case, having looked at it more. While two LoDs can be useful against a lot of builds, it's more effective on a runner than a stand character.

One thing to bear in mind is that, as you play better and better opponents, it gets harder and harder to protect that single point of failure. While there are a lot of tricks you can do to hide your LoD (cancelling casts, fast-cast sets, prots, ect), you're relying on enemy mistakes, and someone like Champ or Yue is still going to get it eventually. Likewise, as frontlines and damage characters get better, they become more capable of taking advantage during the window when LoD is down. Good monks might go through entire matches against low and mid-range opponents without ever using that second LoD. But when you're playing a strong team with an agressive and disruptive gameplan, it can help to prevent a wipe.

Add that to the fact that several strong overload builds at the moment rely on destroying your LoD monk's ability to cast and a second LoD is definitely worth bringing into some matchups.

Not to say there aren't alternatives that are also worth bringing. But dual LoD does have a place in the current meta, and I'm not suprised it saw play in a lot of monthly matches.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 29, 2007, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by beorntheold

10 sec rech. SoD is a liability, imho. the enemy team fakes or just pressures one target, you SoD, they're all over you for a looong time; guardian is a bit slow against a good team, but still helluva lot better than the nerfed SoD

What would you prot with on an RC monk? SB? You have that too on a SoD monk, guardian is definately a useful spell but it's not a spikecounter, and SoD with the new duration isn't such a bad anti pressure skill if you need to defend a certain character (e.g. a flagger running the flag in)

Knowledge · Oct 29, 2007, 03:55 PM // 15:55

I think the problem people had with SoD was that fact that it was being used as "small prot" as well as "big prot."

The reason for its use as "small prot" can be attributed to Glyph of Lesser Energy. SoD was being used to counter general pressure from Warrior/Paragon auto-attacks and when it was combined with Wards/Aegis and whatever other block mechanics you had specced, it became very difficult to pressure without a bunch of disruption.

Then finally, after taking so long to build up enough Adrenaline for spike, SoD would just be used as the "big prot" to kill the spike, thus forcing the team to start over again.

I guess in a sense, SoD on a 10 second recharge can still be used as "small prot" but it would be way less frequent, and candidates for the prot would have to be chosen very carefully to maximize efficiency.

As far as Guardian goes, Guardian is an excellent skill. Combining it with Aegis and Wards, will create an 87.5% chance to block if im doing my math correctly. Take any one of those you start off with 50%. 50% of the remaining 50% would be an additional 25%, resulting in a 75% chance to block. Then another 50% of the remaining 25% gets you an additional 12.5%, finally resulting in 87.5%.

Guardian, and I doubt anyone will disagree with me, is a small prot by design. Guardian should be doing the job SoD used to do when SoD had a 5 second recharge, shutting down general pressure from auto-attacks from Warriors/Dervishes/Paragons. Guardian isn't a spike counter but does a great job vs. Assassin Combos, and should only be considered a spike counter concerning Assassins.

eloc_jcg · Oct 29, 2007, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Well, if all the Elites are considered "bad", then that means none of them are considered bad because all of them are. Get what I mean? And what happened to SoD anyways?

Knowledge · Oct 29, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by eloc_jcg

Well, if all the Elites are considered "bad", then that means none of them are considered bad because all of them are. Get what I mean? And what happened to SoD anyways?

That is exactly the thing I hope to get away from in future skill changes. I want there to be a vast majority of skills to be considered viable and balanced, promoting a diverse metagame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Lustful Thrust

--Kiss
--Rejuv
--LoD
--WoC
--GoH
--Infuse

Personally, the only useful Healing Prayers are LoD, Dwaynas, Infuse, and Gift of Health.

I really think Signet of Rejuvination is inferior to small prot such as Guardian or Shield of Absorption. Words of Comfort is in nearly everyway inferior to Reversal of Fortune. I'm also starting to doubt the usefulness of Infuse, cause I feel "big prots" will always take precedent to Infuse.