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How removing LoD could be good for the game.

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Old

Nov 09, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

#41

Rohan

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2006

Guild: Wasted Days [wD]

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Take selfheals on almost anyone.

Shorter cast on heal sig imo

Rohan is offline

Old

Nov 09, 2007, 11:18 PM // 23:18

#42

TheOneMephisto

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phe Belladona

hello im the Heal line im filled with stuff you dont really want ^^

hey im the prot line i can stop spikes, remove conditions well, reduce damage significantly and generally quick in doing so - oh btw i can heal like crazy too thanks to ZB

^while WoH may be better at healing than ZB you need to consider the fact its in a line which you really dont like to use.. Prot is a far superior line and while it might not heal as much as WoH that makes ZB better.

Almost every useful non-elite skill in the prot line functions perfectly well at 10ish prot.

The fact that WoH has a short recharge, monster heal, only takes 5e invested, and can be used extremely efficiently without even hitting the bonus makes it way better.

TheOneMephisto is offline

Old

Nov 09, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

#43

Wasteland Squidget

I'm back?

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Here.

Guild: Delta Formation [DF]

Profession: W/E

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Oni Firestarter

When you look at mild nerfs to eviscerate etc and with no one running sups, I just dont see this NF power creep evidenced anywhere but LoD.

Many of the most powerful Nightfall skills have seen nerfs, and the biggest remaining differences are in the realms of degen and AoE. Prior to Nightfall, the strongest AoE skill that saw regular play was Energy Surge, which was on a long recharge and couldn't break your team too quickly outside of VoD. Now, you have Splinter + Ancestors blowing your team up, or Mind Blast + Rodgort's guys in your face while a thumper beats up your monks. Hexes also saw significant buffs, which allowed hex teams to stay alive longer and put more pressure on your team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oni Firestarter

LoD is the skill that put less emphasis on kiting damage, it put less emphasis on careful frenzy useage. The reason warriors do so much DPs than ever before is because every warrior swaps between frenzy and rush and really, its near impossible to force good warriors out of frenzy until you start spiking them with deep wounds. Throwing orbs or spears into wars aren't going to force them out of frenzy, because you just LoD. Overextending on wars is trivial now, because you are picking up LoDs. Killing an overextended war is near impossible because he is just picking up LoD support the entire time. The real skill that allowed players to sit in hyper offensive mode is LoD. For all its healing power, it also drastically cranked up teams ability to sit inside hyper offensive mode.

It works out like this.

Party healing has always been the most important defensive concept in Guild Wars. It's the only way to deal with AoE teams, or degen, or even just mass physicals punching your face in. Without that method of topping up the bars, teams break, and teams since the GWWC have put a huge focus on shutting down the other guy's party healing so his team will wipe.

Prior to Nightfall, teams lived and died by Heal Party spam. Post-Nightfall, you saw more powerful skirmish templates and removal, along with a general increase in player health totals, which allowed characters to push harder. Guarding that 2 second Heal Party against interrupts stopped being a viable option. Teams switched to LoD, which was easier to guard and wasn't so easily forced off the stand for flag-running or base defense.

Heal Party didn't top the bars up any less than LoD did. A Heal Party guy in full spam mode actually got more healing over time than you got from LoD guy (though admittedly, he was in full spam mode a lot less often.) There has never been a team when teams survived without party healing.

If you expect LoD to save you when pushing as a warrior, you don't understand warrior play at all. That extra 75 health can be useful in that it allows you to stay in a bit longer, but it's not going to save you from the enemy team. Good warriors overextend because they have the battlefield awareness to do so - they watch the enemy team and know when they're getting into a dangerous situation. Bad warriors run after an enemy flagger, get snared, and die, wondering why LoD spam or Healing Signet didn't save them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oni Firestarter

So where is this supposed damage come from that can ONLY be dealt with by LoD??

The same place damage that could only be dealt with by Heal Party came from. Degen and AoE, combined with autoattack pressure and knockdowns. The difference is, it's no longer feasable to chain-cast a 2s skill and expect to get it off regularly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oni Firestarter

Getting back to what Squidget talked about: The ether prod ele was actually AFAIK completely murdered by the YAA template. Right when nightfall came out, the YAA war with sig malice or mending touch basically demolished ether prod runners across the board, everywhere and anywhere.

Well, yes and no. I'll agree that the template played a huge part in demolishing E/Mo runners, but once the Nightfall metagame stabilized, your runner had Mending Touch too and couldn't be killed reliably by a YAA + Malice guy. The threat that character created didn't come from YAA itself, it came from the warrior in your base capable of pulling his own conditions. Eventually, people realized that Mending Touch made their elite bad, and proceeded to run something useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oni Firestarter

Nerfing LoD had to happen. It was fun, but it had run its course. LoD wars is not the neccesarily the best template, and more and more, that is what the game degenerated into. The meta hasn't even had a chance to adjust yet, and people are making these really wide conclusions about what will happen.

People who understand the game are making comments about what will inevitably happen without reliable party healing. The same thing that has always happened to teams robbed of their reliable party healing, and the meta is proving them right thus far.

Wasteland Squidget is offline

Old

Nov 09, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

#44

IMMORTAlMITCH

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Guild: Straight Outta Kamadan [KMD]

Profession: Me/

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

In other words, with people using a variety of alternatives, and now having a crazy heal in the mainteam, we might actually get a metagame where people arent all at 80% hp and easy to spike down, or where it isn't just a question of diversion/humility/pleak/dshot the healer to teamwipe the opponent.

The WoH bar is still equally bad when the elite is shut down, they need to buff some non elite healing skills (e.g. Patient Spirit, Orison etc.) and change HP to 10e to stop the reliance on the elite.

Of course you could just run 2 WoH monks now and it would be effective.

IMMORTAlMITCH is offline

Nov 10, 2007, 12:17 AM // 00:17	#45
Cirian Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: European Union Guild: The Amazon Basin	I'm more of an obs mode watcher than a real player, but I hope you'll indulge me with this suggestion. The splinter/rage rit could be made tri-spec and be laden with Song of Restoration and Signet of Synergy, in addition to your two monks like so: [skill]Splinter Weapon[/skill][skill]Ancestors' Rage[/skill][skill]Mend Body and Soul[/skill][skill]Soothing Memories[/skill][skill]Protective was Kaolai[/skill][skill]Song of Restoration[/skill][skill]Signet of Synergy[/skill][skill]Flesh of My Flesh[/skill] Chan 10+1+1, Resto 11+1, Motivation 10. That grants you two 70 point party heals, both on 1s casts. The rit also gains the full +16AL of a motivation shield. Choice of Herald or Survivor insigs.

Old

Nov 10, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

#46

Kaon

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

Guild: Super Kaon Action Team [Ban]

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The WoH bar is still equally bad when the elite is shut down, they need to buff some non elite healing skills (e.g. Patient Spirit, Orison etc.) and change HP to 10e to stop the reliance on the elite.

Of course you could just run 2 WoH monks now and it would be effective.

Except for the fact that woh is 3/4s cast, and quicker recharge.

Also remember that people will now run more off-monk defense than before, which is what im saying in that post.

Kaon is offline

Nov 10, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32	#47
Yue The Cheese Stands Alone Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: A Chair Guild: Delta Formation [DF] Profession: R/	It doesn't really matter how much this is argued. Result is the update buffed every broken build in the game. Izzy listened to good advice, and shat all over it. Skill balance should be left to people who know what they're doing.

Old

Nov 10, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

#48

pah01

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

Location: Liverpool

Profession: Mo/

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

It doesn't really matter how much this is argued. Result is the update buffed every broken build in the game. Izzy listened to good advice, and shat all over it. Skill balance should be left to people who know what they're doing.

It cant be just that.

Izzy is obviously *made and paid* to balance this game in a shit way. Otherwise we would not have all the shit we have had.

I seriously thought arenenet would have learned.

After a while I thought they were retards.

Now I consider them RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs.

Joe

pah01 is offline

Old

Nov 10, 2007, 12:08 PM // 12:08

#49

zola

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

I'm more of an obs mode watcher than a real player, but I hope you'll indulge me with this suggestion. The splinter/rage rit could be made tri-spec and be laden with Song of Restoration and Signet of Synergy, in addition to your two monks like so:

[skill]Splinter Weapon[/skill][skill]Ancestors' Rage[/skill][skill]Mend Body and Soul[/skill][skill]Soothing Memories[/skill][skill]Protective was Kaolai[/skill][skill]Song of Restoration[/skill][skill]Signet of Synergy[/skill][skill]Flesh of My Flesh[/skill]

Or still run LoD?

In a way, LoD efficiency has been increased by the last patch. Removing the health < 80% clause probably more than made up for the decreased healing. The 2 seconds cast time however makes it unplayable at the stand.

So, why not a Dom Me/Mo with LoD? Even at 10 healing prayers, this is still an incredible HP engine. Up to 350 HP every 5 seconds, plus a domination mesmer in a small neat package.

Or would the 1.25 seconds cast time still be too much?

Just curious.

zola is offline

Old

Nov 10, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

#50

dies like fish

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2006

Guild: Winter Wonderland [brrr]

Profession: W/E

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by zola

Or still run LoD?

In a way, LoD efficiency has been increased by the last patch. Removing the health < 80% clause probably more than made up for the decreased healing. The 2 seconds cast time however makes it unplayable at the stand.

So, why not a Dom Me/Mo with LoD? Even at 10 healing prayers, this is still an incredible HP engine. Up to 350 HP every 5 seconds, plus a domination mesmer in a small neat package.

Or would the 1.25 seconds cast time still be too much?

Just curious.

Mesmers have more important things to be doing and not enough energy for LoD spam.

dies like fish is offline

Old

Nov 10, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

#51

pah01

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

Location: Liverpool

Profession: Mo/

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dies like fish

Mesmers have more important things to be doing and not enough energy for LoD spam.

1.25s is an easy interrupt, well to be fair so is 1s but you can get a fast cast on the 1s

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Old

Nov 10, 2007, 04:04 PM // 16:04

#52

zola

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

1.25s is an easy interrupt, well to be fair so is 1s but you can get a fast cast on the 1s

Fair enough: I never play mesmer but figured that replacing a so-so energy surge with 600 hp when needed was worth the trade, giving leeway in other slots.

Also, the attributes would be a bitch.

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Old

Nov 10, 2007, 04:18 PM // 16:18

#53

TheOneMephisto

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

1.25s is an easy interrupt, well to be fair so is 1s but you can get a fast cast on the 1s

And what's to stop a dom mesmer from using a 40/40 heal set?

TheOneMephisto is offline

Nov 10, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34	#54
Cirian Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: European Union Guild: The Amazon Basin	Even a 0 spec Mantra of Concentration if you had the slot. You'd be looking at 8+1 FC, 12+1+1 Dom, 10 Healing - or 7 Inspiration and 8 Healing if you want PDrain (which I guess you do, right?) That's a 48 point LoD without a PDrain or a 40 point LoD with a PDrain, so it looks like you have to spam it like a madman to get any healing done. I don't think it's, y'know, "meaty" enough to work when the pressure's on. Healer's Boon + Heal Party on a Mo/E is pretty strong imo.

Old

Nov 10, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

#55

zola

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

Even a 0 spec Mantra of Concentration if you had the slot. You'd be looking at 8+1 FC, 12+1+1 Dom, 10 Healing - or 7 Inspiration and 8 Healing if you want PDrain (which I guess you do, right?) That's a 48 point LoD without a PDrain or a 40 point LoD with a PDrain, so it looks like you have to spam it like a madman to get any healing done. I don't think it's, y'know, "meaty" enough to work when the pressure's on.

Healer's Boon + Heal Party on a Mo/E is pretty strong imo.

Actually, I was thinking about lowering dom a bit, but perhaps that is blasphemy.

So the usual 13-9-9-9 with a 44 LoD that casts in 1.32. Still an efficient 300 HP heal that can be obtained under fairly frequent circumstances.

But I agree that it doesn't seem all that sexy after all.

zola is offline

Old

Nov 11, 2007, 02:02 AM // 02:02

#56

twicky_kid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

Guild: Quite Vulgar [FUN]

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zola

OIn a way, LoD efficiency has been increased by the last patch. Removing the health < 80% clause probably more than made up for the decreased healing.

The <80% clause is what made it so efficient. It never over healed.

twicky_kid is offline

Old

Nov 11, 2007, 02:53 AM // 02:53

#57

Robster Lobster

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

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Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

The <80% clause is what made it so efficient. It never over healed.

But overhealing was never a problem since it didn't cost any extra energy to heal more people...

Robster Lobster is offline

Old

Nov 11, 2007, 02:57 AM // 02:57

#58

pah01

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

Location: Liverpool

Profession: Mo/

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

The <80% clause is what made it so efficient. It never over healed.

what lol? have you ttned again?

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Old

Nov 11, 2007, 03:01 AM // 03:01

#59

TLLOTS

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

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Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

The <80% clause is what made it so efficient. It never over healed.

You can not be serious.

The below 80% condition reduced its efficiency, taken away you'd consistently heal for more.

TLLOTS is offline

Old

Nov 11, 2007, 03:36 AM // 03:36

#60

-Pluto-

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: US

Guild: Diversionary Tactics [DT]

Profession: Mo/

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

The <80% clause is what made it so efficient. It never over healed.

I thought it was efficient because it was free.

Now I'm all confused.

-Pluto- is offline

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