Curse

rud5ie · Mar 08, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

"There's a couple different variants on this build you might want to try out:

Mo/W is the most common. Instead of Dark Escape and Return, take Balanced Stance and Shield Bash. This combo is really nice against Assassin spikes because you shield bash their lead attack and they're pretty much screwed. Also, you can spec out 9 in tactics and actually meet the req of your shield, giving you more armor. Balanced stance helps against all the knockdowns out there. Especially useful when everything is coming for you.

Mo/D switches Dark Escape and Return with Conviction and Mystic Healing. Conviction is a nice armor boost and Mystic gives you a ton of regen.

Mo/Me brings in Hex Breaker. I usually spec points in healing and take Gift of Health when running with Hex Breaker. Hex Breaker is nice because it's really the only way to avoid getting hit with Diversion."

That was some advice given to me by a guildie recently in regards to the Mo/A build you describe. I've been running that for a while and it allowed me to get my first gladiator point, which was pretty exhilarating. Thanks to everyone who posted advice here, it has allowed me to learn what I need to improve on to transition more easily from PvE to PvP

Another note from an alliance mate: "Just a quick note on my personal variation of the Mo/W build is to use Deadly Riposte and Disciplined Stance (or frenzied defense) for melee protection. I find that if a melee char gets seriously hurt by a monk, they usually run away pretty fast, that or with proper kiting you can actually kill them from bleeding. Also, I've been able to kill frenzy spikers with deadly riposte on occasion (I usually have 9 tactics = 120 dmg when frenzied)."

zola · Mar 09, 2007, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by rud5ie

Mo/Me brings in Hex Breaker. Hex Breaker is nice because it's really the only way to avoid getting hit with Diversion."

That and the glee that comes from seeing a A/W wasting his dark combo because the prison hex failed.

Zui · Mar 09, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Hex Breaker is not the only way to avoid getting hit with Diversion. The other ways are 1) Have your team pressure the Mesmer, making him cast less because he's kiting. 2) Having your team interrupt Diversion. 3) Killing the Mesmer.

All of which make Diversion stop hitting you, or greatly reduce how often it hits you.

Divineshadows · Mar 09, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by rud5ie

Mo/W is the most common. Instead of Dark Escape and Return, take Balanced Stance and Shield Bash. This combo is really nice against Assassin spikes because you shield bash their lead attack and they're pretty much screwed. Also, you can spec out 9 in tactics and actually meet the req of your shield, giving you more armor. Balanced stance helps against all the knockdowns out there. Especially useful when everything is coming for you.

Being able to meet the shield req is hot. You hit the nail on the head as far as good warrior skills for monks to use in TA (shield bash and balanced stance). You left out disciplined stance and soldier's defense (assuming your build has shouts) though as both are good skills for monks to use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rud5ie

Mo/D switches Dark Escape and Return with Conviction and Mystic Healing. Conviction is a nice armor boost and Mystic gives you a ton of regen.

Did you mean mystic regen instead of mystic healing? Mystic regen is too expensive for a monk to run. Vital boon combos better with conviction on monks. Also, conviction can be dropped in favor of contemplation of purity (CoP + holy veil + vital boon has nice synergy).

Quote:

Originally Posted by rud5ie

Another note from an alliance mate: "Just a quick note on my personal variation of the Mo/W build is to use Deadly Riposte and Disciplined Stance (or frenzied defense) for melee protection. I find that if a melee char gets seriously hurt by a monk, they usually run away pretty fast, that or with proper kiting you can actually kill them from bleeding. Also, I've been able to kill frenzy spikers with deadly riposte on occasion (I usually have 9 tactics = 120 dmg when frenzied)."

Deadly riposte is quite fun to run on a monk, but I'm not sure if it's as efficient as other options from the warrior lines for monks to run. That said, I've run deadly riposte before on my monk at times. Frenzied defense is garbage. Anyone who cares about becoming a better monk will not run frenzied defense. Prot spirit (the skill that frenzied defense dorks typically bring as well) is also garbage for PvP in TA and RA even though it is a good skill in PvE.

The secondaries you did not mention for monks in TA are /E and /R. I actually play those secondaries more than /W and /D. Ele secondary is for glyph of lesser energy and ranger secondary for natural stride (anywhere from 4 to 6 second duration depending on how you want to spec it).

rud5ie · Mar 09, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

thanks very much for the responses - I feel silly now having had prot spirit on my skill bar for so long in RA, as I hardly ever use it and didn't really think to change it

In all honesty I plucked a build from guildwiki and was just seeing how well I could do with it and get my feet wet in RA at the same time.

Also, the suggestions I posted were advice given to me on how to be more successful in RA, which I neglected to mention. Thus the trouble with mesmers - a lot of the time, the team has trouble erm, following calls, though if I see a mesmer using diversion I call it whenever they're using it, and call them as a target... that's about all I can do, no? Oddly enough, I've only come across one mesmer in RA that bothered to use diversion (on me, at least), and this strategy actually worked pretty well for getting my team to hone in and take them down.

TA is definitely a different beast, and I would surely consider other options for defensive secondary skills when I had a real team who actually cared whether or not I die, lol... ah, but RA is fun too. Deadly riposte definitely makes melee characters think twice before coming after you for another round of monk stomping

I am working out a plan with some guildies/alliance mates on getting into TA more regularly. We are a heavily/almost exclusively PvE oriented alliance, but a few of us have an interest in PvP as well, and TA seems like a great place to start developing our strategies and skills. It helps that one of our new alliance mates is reasonably experienced in PvP, and can sort of guide us in the right direction.

I am going to continue playing around with having different secondaries, it lends a bit more variety and flexibility, and somewhat playing down predictability... thanks for mentioning /E and /R as other options - is /N pretty useless for a monk secondary?

btw, Divineshadows, your previous post with a detailed list of "universal key concepts that apply to monking" here was instrumental in my development as a PvP monk, and I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom and experience so eloquently

I have since applied the concepts to my PvE monking as well, and definitely see improvement.

Divineshadows · Mar 09, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by rud5ie

Deadly riposte definitely makes melee characters think twice before coming after you for another round of monk stomping

There are certain skills that illicit an amusing response from melee characters when used. Shield bash and deadly riposte are two of those. Weapon of shadow and ineptitude are also quite amusing, when used effectively, for watching the opposing melee players squirm. Unfortunately, ineptitude is a lot weaker now than it used to be. Even though it didn't get nerfed, the inherent power creep that was introduced with Nightfall made it weaker relative to other options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rud5ie

I am going to continue playing around with having different secondaries, it lends a bit more variety and flexibility, and somewhat playing down predictability... thanks for mentioning /E and /R as other options - is /N pretty useless for a monk secondary?

It has been a long time since /N was a useful secondary for a monk. Those were the days of the offering of blood {E} (used to be 10% health sacrafice) boon prots. A lot has changed since then. In general, a monk in today's meta wants their secondary to fill the role of energy management or some form of self defense without the use of an elite skill from the secondary. Typically though, you only get self defense or energy management from your secondary (mesmer could be one exception for hex breaker and power drain but it's been a long time since I've used or seen anyone else use p-drain effectively on a monk). Necro, paragon, and ritualist don't effectively fill either role more efficiently than other secondaries can. Look through the skill lists for those classes...you'll be hard pressed to find anything you'd want to run on a monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rud5ie

btw, Divineshadows, your previous post with a detailed list of "universal key concepts that apply to monking" was instrumental in my development as a PvP monk, and I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom and experience so eloquently

I have since applied the concepts to my PvE monking as well, and definitely see improvement.

Awesome, I'm glad I could be of help. I do feel that it was one of my best posts ever on GWG. It's important to note, however, that the information is a compilation of advice posted by many others on this forum in the past along with my own play experience. I could try to credit everyone who was a part of the contribution toward that post, but the list would be too long and I'd inevitably leave out some people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

I have a term for this style of play and I call it "monk stomp". Bad players and bad teams do it straight out of the gate and never change up. It's the typical childish immature play that sums up 99% of the strategy observed in random arenas. What the hell is your team doing while you are being allowed to be monk stomped when the gate opens? They're probably trying to play "monk stomp" as well and just so happen to be slightly worse at it. Either that or your teammates are doing nothing at all, because it certainly sounds like they aren't doing anything to hinder the opposing team's plans to "monk stomp" you.

Good players and good teams know better than to play "monk stomp" 100% of the time. In fact, they play it fairly infrequently in most team builds. They also know though those certain points in a match where the pressure on the opposing team is just right and how to push down on the accelerator and execute a few seconds of monk stomping.

Heh. I like quoting myself, but I bring up this post again because I have more to say on this topic now. Well designed builds have layers of defense built into them. With respect to TA builds, some builds are more aggressive in nature and others are more defensive in nature. I personally prefer the more aggressive builds. In all cases, however, the monk is the last line of defense.

Teams that attempt to "monk stomp" are simply playing poorly. To beat a well constructed build, you basically need to de-construct it layer by layer. Going straight after the monk just ignores everything else about your opponent's defense and, in doing so, only makes the supporting defense and monk prots more effective. Monk prots like spirit bond or shield of absorption become extremely good (to the point where they alone win matches because they prevent so much damage) when teams spend too much time focused on trying to kill one target. When I stated in the above quoted post that good teams know those certain points in a match to execute a few key seconds of tactical monk stomping, what I am really stating here is that the rest of the opponent's defense has been sufficiently de-constructed and all the team is doing is simply punching through the last line of defense.

It's like having a strategy in basketball of always looking to get a slam dunk only to get most of your passes stolen in the lane before you even get the opportunity for a dunk. Good basketball teams make plays and win by outmaneuvering their opponents to create mis-matches and creases within their defense. Guild Wars is no different to basketball in that respect. Nor do you win points with your partner (avoiding any gender specific terms here because I do not want to make any assumptions about the gender of the readers) by going straight for the gusto and skipping the foreplay. Similarly, going into all out "monk stomp" straight out of the gate is no different as you are skipping the key steps in the progression toward success.

Monk stomp mentality is not something unique to RA players, guildless players, or players in poorly ranked guilds. I have played with several melee players from top 100 guilds in TA (and sometimes in HA) who think that their job is to hit monks to the exclusion of all else. Meanwhile, they are being kited extensively, having their damage reduced, while other players on the opposition are in a comfort zone cause they're not getting hit by the melee on your team and get to perform their job for the most part unmolested. It's not fun to have a player like that on your team holding you back and having to have the rest of your team try really hard to compensate for their poor play so that your team can potentially grind out a win.

Legendary Shiz · Mar 10, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Hex Breaker is not the only way to avoid getting hit with Diversion. The other ways are 1) Have your team pressure the Mesmer, making him cast less because he's kiting. 2) Having your team interrupt Diversion. 3) Killing the Mesmer.

All of which make Diversion stop hitting you, or greatly reduce how often it hits you.

Pre-veiling is hax as well.

urania · Mar 11, 2007, 12:19 AM // 00:19

shatter says hi ><

(if you forget to cover veil, that is :<)

Vermilion · Mar 11, 2007, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Yeah..shatter ftl. I started seeing people preveiling the whole team, seems to work pretty nice. Although I don't see shatters a whole lot.

Effigy · Mar 13, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

I usually preveil myself and one of the melees, since those are the most obvious hex targets. Usually not time to preveil everyone though, and It could lead to energy problems too since you wouldn't regen your initial investment like you do with 1-2 veils.

Patrick Smit · Mar 13, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

I like to use Lingering curse once in a while, where is the Veil? Hex breaker can be annoying, but putting a parasitic bond first to break it is ok.

bungusmaximus · Mar 15, 2007, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion

Yeah..shatter ftl. I started seeing people preveiling the whole team, seems to work pretty nice. Although I don't see shatters a whole lot.

How do you keep energy up if you have to maintain 4 veils? Better be sure to kill the enemy hexer fast, or bring ZB or something.

Div · Mar 15, 2007, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

How do you keep energy up if you have to maintain 4 veils? Better be sure to kill the enemy hexer fast, or bring ZB or something.

You don't keep it on for the entire duration of the fight...you can always cancel it

Bastian · Mar 15, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

You don't keep it on for the entire duration of the fight...you can always cancel it

I typically pre-veil myself and any melee characters on my team. I find that either hexes are going to be used against me or to shut down melee. The first thing I look for at the other team is what characters they are running, and if I can afford to remove any veils before the fighting starts. If there is a mesmer or necro in the group, I usually wait to see what skills they are using and who they are targeting first.

Divineshadows · Mar 15, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

I typically pre-veil myself and any melee characters on my team. I find that either hexes are going to be used against me or to shut down melee. The first thing I look for at the other team is what characters they are running, and if I can afford to remove any veils before the fighting starts. If there is a mesmer or necro in the group, I usually wait to see what skills they are using and who they are targeting first.

This is also what I do. If playing a Mo/E, then typically pre-veil 3 players before the match starts (since I can stabilize my energy easier with glyph lesser). Otherwise I'll typically only pre-veil two players before the match starts. Once I can see the opposing players I do a quick scan of their primaries and secondaries.

If there are no mesmers primaries, assassin primaries, or N/Me, then I'll typically drop the pre-veil on myself. If there are no necro primaries (or Me/N or E/N), then I'll typically drop any veils on the melee (and spear or bow users) in my team. If I find, from observing skill usage, that the opposing mesmer is anti-melee, then I drop the veil on myself and get veils back up on the offense as soon as I can. The same goes for a water ele (though they are quite rare in TA).

On some maps you can see your opponents before the gates open, so you get to do the scan before you complete putting up the veils

In older TA metas when gale was still very good, veiling your blinding surge mesmer or ele was important in some matches to help protect them from diversion. But now that gale sucks why run a non-monk caster at all (aside from reaper's mark anti-melee curse necro which I feel is the only strong caster template left for TA)?

wolfwing · Mar 16, 2007, 01:25 AM // 01:25

I've had the game for a few years now, but just now getting into trying monk in RA, but wondering if there is any advise or skills that are recomended?

What I have now is.

Light of deliverence
Divine healing
Jamel's Gaze
Orison's healing
Healing breeze
Shroud of distress
Divine intervention
and ress signet

I've been experimenting a bit trying different things but nothing seems to work super good.

15 healing
9 divine favor/shadow arts.

Agyar · Mar 16, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

But now that gale sucks why run a non-monk caster at all (aside from reaper's mark anti-melee curse necro which I feel is the only strong caster template left for TA)?

Me/N's with anti-melee, expel hexes (or MoR) and sig of humility have become quite popular again.

I think part of the reason is that people are starting to jam their support skills (in the form of purge signet and mending touch) onto melee/pewpew characters, perhaps a side effect of the more open choice teams have for their melee slots (rather than just 1 or 2 thumpers; gogogogo).

Morganas · Mar 16, 2007, 04:43 AM // 04:43

The healing line is bad in general, and in RA and TA Light of deliverance is also very bad.

The only good RA monk builds include Zealous Benediction, prot spells, sometimes gift of health, and either mes secondary for hex breaker, assassin secondary for return and dark escape, or warrior secondary for shield bash and a tactics stance.

Don't take any res skill on a monk, not even sig. If you blow 3 seconds casting a res, more people will die.

(I know it sounds bad to say "only good RA monk build," but for monks and monks alone, this is entirely true, due to the random nature of 4v4 and tendency to monk stomp, ZB prot with warrior or assassin secondary is pretty much the only thing versatile, survivable, and has enough healing power to deal with RA and usually TA. There are exceptions in TA).

Edit: wow I forgot Shield of regeneration. Not as good as ZB, and requires elementalist secondary for glyph, but it can at least be argued that it's viable in RA. And bring holy veil in addition to what I mentioned before.

wolfwing · Mar 16, 2007, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Whats wrong with light of deliverence? It's to me the better of most of the healing skills. It costs 5, heals everyone the same ammount as heal party for 1/3rd the cost. Only downfall is they have to be below 80%, and any healing you do over 80% is going to be wasted more then likly anyway.

I'm mostly doing random arena to get the hang of it a bit...try to learn a bit about being a monk before I go make a fool out of myself in places like TA and beyond. Want to at least make an attempt to know what I'm doing.

Morganas · Mar 16, 2007, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfwing

Whats wrong with light of deliverence? It's to me the better of most of the healing skills. It costs 5, heals everyone the same ammount as heal party for 1/3rd the cost. Only downfall is they have to be below 80%, and any healing you do over 80% is going to be wasted more then likly anyway.

You shouldn't bring heal party into RA either. Basically, Light of Deliverance and heal party were balanced around 8 man teams. On a 4 man team, it just doesn't compare to good single target spells.

The biggest downfall isn't the 80% thing, the problem is that it forces you to go heavy into healing prayers. In guild wars, damage mitigation, through condition removal, general protective spells like guardian, damage reduction spells like prot spirit and reversal of fortune, and hex removal, are far more powerful and efficient than just casting heals at people. You can get by on healing spells in HA where you can be assured of offloading that vital utility on your party members, but you don't have that luxury in RA. Also, most healing prayers spells, including light of dev, are 1 second cast time, which is utterly useless in a place like RA, where you'll be under constant pressure and interruption, without a backline to fall back to. On the other hand, most prot spells are less than 1 second cast.

Now, obviously every "healer" needs a way to just make red bars go up, and thats why Zealous benediction is such a good spell. Not only is it a free heal when used right, but it's helped by going heavy to protection prayers, which is a very good line, whereas healing prayers are not. With gift of health being such a powerful heal, even at low healing prayers, it's much better to take it and no other healing prayers spells, since it disables them. Now you've got two great heals, and tons of points into protection for the awesome spells in that.

If you're trying to make the best monk support build you can in RA, you don't really have much of a choice in the matter of what elite to run, for the reasons I've stated above.