Curse

Captain Robo · Nov 16, 2007, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

Uhmm actually, [skill]Desperate Strike[/skill] does massive damage. If they make the recharge down to like 3~4s,it causes massive pressure not only on 1 target.

If a skill requires you to be losing, it's a bad skill.

yum · Nov 16, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

If a skill requires you to be losing, it's a bad skill.

Consider the crappy defense of the class, it is not. Beside, with LOD's nerf, the 70 => 80% hp condition is not unreasonable. It works quite well with shroud of distress.

wuzzman · Nov 16, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Playing BSurge Ele well, requires infinitely more skill than assassin.

don't you just press 1 when you see something like, I don't know, a shock, an elite, or various other obvious neon signs of a spike? I wouldn't go into the arguement of which build is more skilled to play then another, the simplest builds are easier considered 1. Already in a balance build. or 2. Overpowered

Riotgear · Nov 16, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

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Originally Posted by Aerial Assault

Respect everything you have said except the above quoted, please dont pigeon hole the class with that retardedly derogatory argument.

It's true though.

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The element of surprise and play style of the assassin is whats very appealing and should be implemented into this game. Hell, its an element of war or any conflict, so why shouldnt it? Shadow step or not, 1-2-3-4-5 combo chain etc., you still have to analyze the situation and prepare for any defensive counters that may be presented by other profession playstyles that require even less talent by like... oh I dont know... B-Surge spammers? Ward spammers? Anti melee hexers ?

"Surprise" does not make something interesting. 321spike builds are very surprising, they also require only slightly more coordination than popping bubble wrap. "Surprise" often means that there is no way to predict something, so the tactical burden shifts entirely to the target who gets an extremely small margin of error (in this case, the margin before Horns hits), while the person performing this garbage merely has to wait.

With Expose taking care of their block worries, Shadow Prison taking care of all of their positioning, kiting, and Expose getting prematurely removed worries, BLS taking care of their energy worries, and Impale making their combo do a massive amout more damage than it used to, the tactical burden on Assassins was lower than ever.

Ironically, they're not really that surprising either. A warrior in your midline is usually very surprising, because it's never entirely clear what they're going to do. Bull's Strike wouldn't even work if this wasn't the case. However, their is some actual burden on them to do this. A predictable warrior will get nowhere, the burden is on them to create surprises and act unpredictable, it's not handed to them on a silver platter with significantly larger reward (read: Instagib damage on a KDed target) by their class design.

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A change is needed in the way they are played, but this current update doesnt fix anything.

If you mean this update doesn't solve any of the class's core problems, then you're correct, but the trash needs to be taken out before that can happen anyway.

The problem of offhands being undesirable has been partially fixed: Wild Strike is a lot better, a lot of the others have 1/2-sec cast now.
The problem of utility being overly offloaded into late parts of the attack chain remains, but duals just got toned down.
The problem of Deadly Arts not providing disruption and utility outside of gimmick builds remains.

However, too much utility in the leads makes shadow stepping even more broken, and shadow stepping WITH A HARD SNARE is absolutely retarded. It basically means you get to play melee while ignoring half of the limitations of melee, you're basically a slow caster spike in one character slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

It works quite well with shroud of distress.

The lower health you are, the bigger of a risk you are. If a skill doesn't work well from FULL HEALTH, it is a waste of a skill slot.

Shroud of Distress is expensive, and by the time it kicks in against any sort of smart team, they'll shatter it anyway.

Captain Robo · Nov 16, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

don't you just press 1 when you see something like, I don't know, a shock, an elite, or various other obvious neon signs of a spike? I wouldn't go into the arguement of which build is more skilled to play then another, the simplest builds are easier considered 1. Already in a balance build. or 2. Overpowered

There's a lot more finesse to it than that. Back in the days of Eurospike, if your ele was good, they could shut down both warrior components of the spike singlehandedly. More than likely, you're also packing Draw Conditions and Gale on that Blindbot, so they serve a wide variety of purposes. They get a really bad rap for being generic and unoriginal, but blindbot is one of the most skill intensive roles there is.

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The problem of Deadly Arts not providing disruption and utility outside of gimmick builds remains.

You nailed it, that's excellently stated.

Razz L Dazzle · Nov 16, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

don't you just press 1 when you see something like, I don't know, a shock, an elite, or various other obvious neon signs of a spike? I wouldn't go into the arguement of which build is more skilled to play then another, the simplest builds are easier considered 1. Already in a balance build. or 2. Overpowered

If you're completely ignorant of how to play a class then don't bother posting on it. B-surge has many roles in a traditional balance build. This character faces the most shutdown, from both rangers and mesmers. A bad B-surge will you lose you games quickly as p-leak, diversion, enchant strips will rend you useless. B-surges have to cancel cast and fake quite a bit in any moderate level GvG. Gale is a good skill when used by the right player. If the Ele has a ward, avoiding interruption and correct position also plays an important role in his micro-management. Shell shock, and bolt can provide spike damage, minor pressure and penalize aggressive warriors.

If you think all a B-surge ele does is wait for the obvious signs of a spike and press 1, you're pretty retarded. And if you've waited for the elite to blind, your ally is probably already dead.

Its tough to argue in any intelligent manor that playing 'sin takes that degree of skill or micro-management.

shadowmage61 · Nov 16, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

With Expose taking care of their block worries, Shadow Prison taking care of all of their positioning, kiting, and Expose getting prematurely removed worries, BLS taking care of their energy worries, and Impale making their combo do a massive amout more damage than it used to, the tactical burden on Assassins was lower than ever.

The reason the 'tactical burden' is low for assassins in PvP is because most of the people who play assassin in PvP have no creativity and mindlessly copy their SoJ or BoA or BLS build from PVXWiki. If those assassins actually made some good original builds, they'd be much more surprising and difficult to counter.

With that said, please don't assume that every sin uses a SP + BLS spike in PvP. Not all of us are hopeless noobs, lol.

Jaen · Nov 16, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

don't you just press 1 when you see something like, I don't know, a shock, an elite, or various other obvious neon signs of a spike? I wouldn't go into the arguement of which build is more skilled to play then another, the simplest builds are easier considered 1. Already in a balance build. or 2. Overpowered

Wow.

Comments like this make your GvG experience, or rather lack thereof painfully obvious.

Bankai · Nov 16, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowmage61

The reason the 'tactical burden' is low for assassins in PvP is because there is no reason to run a better build, since gay builds work just as well as those that take skill to play.

Fix'd for truth.

ensoriki · Nov 16, 2007, 09:24 PM // 21:24

*equips flameshield*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

"Surprise" does not make something interesting. 321spike builds are very surprising, they also require only slightly more coordination than popping bubble wrap. "Surprise" often means that there is no way to predict something, so the tactical burden shifts entirely to the target who gets an extremely small margin of error (in this case, the margin before Horns hits), while the person performing this garbage merely has to wait.

I think he means surprise as in, they come in when the enemy's focus is else where. Thus the Surprise, they weren't paying attention. I think this is what he means anyhow.
The last part isn't very clear I'm seeing 2 different possible meanings of what your saying. Either the person who is doing this spike with horns has a margin of error... or are you saying the person being spiked has a small margin of error?

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With Expose taking care of their block worries, Shadow Prison taking care of all of their positioning, kiting, and Expose getting prematurely removed worries, BLS taking care of their energy worries, and Impale making their combo do a massive amount more damage than it used

>.> How does that make a flawed class(even if your not saying that...its just the message im seeing from others)? And instead mean that there is just an imbalance in the skill synergies. Such is the SP sin..which btw didn't exist 1 year and 2 months ago >.>. Can't impale just be reverted back to its original HEX form? It had no DW but served as a damage buff.
Tired if quoting now.
_____

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Ironically, they're not really that surprising either. A warrior in your midline is usually very surprising, because it's never entirely clear what they're going to do. Bull's Strike wouldn't even work if this wasn't the case. However, their is some actual burden on them to do this. A predictable warrior will get nowhere, the burden is on them to create surprises and act unpredictable, it's not handed to them on a silver platter with significantly larger reward (read: Instagib damage on a KDed target) by their class design.
>.> This is very interesting, as from the impression I got before, Before Nightfall AoD was pretty much the only worthy PVP (until shadow of haste buff)
shadow step. Wouldn't reverting the Assassin's clock back work?
I'm interested in your answer.

If you mean this update doesn't solve any of the class's core problems, then you're correct, but the trash needs to be taken out before that can happen anyway.
Its possible for them to do this within the system without nerfs. Fix, and then do nerfs and balances.

The problem of offhands being undesirable has been partially fixed: Wild Strike is a lot better, a lot of the others have 1/2-sec cast now.
The problem of utility being overly offloaded into late parts of the attack chain remains, but duals just got toned down.
The problem of Deadly Arts not providing disruption and utility outside of gimmick builds remains.
Off hands Undesirable? Since when...everyone just wanted to Off hand to there duals. Deadly arts can provide utility and disruption its not hard. 2 problems with it.
1.Why take this utility when you can toggle God Mode kill switch instead.
2. Why waste your Critical Strikes Energy Management? For energy intensive skills that need a rather meaty deposit into the attributes.
It can provide utility, but most assassin's don't want to take off the cheat codes >.>

However, too much utility in the leads makes shadow stepping even more broken, and shadow stepping WITH A HARD SNARE is absolutely retarded. It basically means you get to play melee while ignoring half of the limitations of melee, you're basically a slow caster spike in one character slot.
Agree'd, but to much Utility in leads? You mean if they made Lead's stronger right?

The lower health you are, the bigger of a risk you are. If a skill doesn't work well from FULL HEALTH, it is a waste of a skill slot.
Unless its pre-Prot....like the dervish watchful and faithful interventions =P

Shroud of Distress is expensive, and by the time it kicks in against any sort of smart team, they'll shatter it anyway.
Shroud isn't as bad as you say, Shroud provides a little mind game. Though not very useful in GvG, where your opponent probably knows all or most of the skills in game by heart. Shroud makes it so you can cast it, they won't see the affect of it until you have just stopped there final attack and saved yourself. Its also a nice enchant to cover. It's also easier on the monk...when your starting to die, Shroud kicks in and slows the damage coming, until your monk can help.
...all though not great in pvp =P...just wanted to say its not that bad.....

The reason the 'tactical burden' is low for assassins in PvP is because there is no reason to run a better build, since gay builds work just as well as those that take skill to play.

Fix'd for truth.

Nice fix >.> Why use skill and be good...when you can put on god-mode and be good.

Bankai · Nov 16, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

AoD wouldn't work in this metagame since back then, the killing relied on one chain: shock>falling spider>twisting fangs. Maybe a bit longer. However, in the current metagame, runners have full-fledged monk builds, instead of only blinding flash and breeze, so you won't even get them down to 50% with that chain.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 16, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

The last part isn't very clear I'm seeing 2 different possible meanings of what your saying. Either the person who is doing this spike with horns has a margin of error... or are you saying the person being spiked has a small margin of error?

The person being spiked has a small margin of error. Facing a sin with almost any other class, the person being spiked has to play almost perfectly in order to survive a retard rolling their face across the number keys.

Aerial Assault · Nov 16, 2007, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

It's true though.

No, it's what you and everyone else that dislikes the class wants to believe is true so you can belittle those who actually like the class. I'm willing to bet if their aesthetic wasnt so "ninja like" and were called "Rogue"(or something else) we wouldnt be having this "omg naruto wannabe" discussion.

It's more likely because of their increasing popularity from other games why they were implemented into the game. The same reason why you almost always find a warrior/melee class in every RPG / MMORPG these days, the Assassin class is fast becoming a staple character type. And frankly, while there are problems with their playstyle mechanic in this game, I'm happy about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

It's true though.

"Surprise" does not make something interesting. 321spike builds are very surprising, they also require only slightly more coordination than popping bubble wrap. "Surprise" often means that there is no way to predict something, so the tactical burden shifts entirely to the target who gets an extremely small margin of error (in this case, the margin before Horns hits), while the person performing this garbage merely has to wait.

With Expose taking care of their block worries, Shadow Prison taking care of all of their positioning, kiting, and Expose getting prematurely removed worries, BLS taking care of their energy worries, and Impale making their combo do a massive amout more damage than it used to, the tactical burden on Assassins was lower than ever.

Ironically, they're not really that surprising either. A warrior in your midline is usually very surprising, because it's never entirely clear what they're going to do. Bull's Strike wouldn't even work if this wasn't the case. However, their is some actual burden on them to do this. A predictable warrior will get nowhere, the burden is on them to create surprises and act unpredictable, it's not handed to them on a silver platter with significantly larger reward (read: Instagib damage on a KDed target) by their class design.

The reason why a Warrior can afford to aggro midline-backline is obvious. An Assassin is unable to do that as effectively without the advantage of movement / shadowstepping. Even the Dervish, sharing the same base armor as an Assassin is able to do it better because of the number of self-sustaining enchants that class is privy to.

The element of surprise IS interesting, but is not the only reason why a good warrior can and will switch targets. Their higher autoattack base damage and DPS is better than an Assassin's and, with that alone, can apply the necessary pressure needed for a prot/healing class to focus their attention on their harassed teammate. Even if you see the warrior coming after you, it takes some time before a monk can react to prot/heal you. It's not only a question of interest, it's a question of efficacy. The Assassin cannot apply the same kind of target switching pressure tactics the warrior has without relying on their attack skills, and is why they are afforded the advantage of shadowstep.

Now, I wont deny that the hard snare associated with SP is a problem (though not as severe as its duration was already cut sharply from before), but not all shadow step skills have snares. I dont even use SP / dark prison as my shadowstep FOR the snare, it's because they're the only shadowstep skills that apply a hex, which is prerequisite for many useful attack skills in the Assassin line.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 17, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Posts deleted. This isn't the place for a flame war, or professing your love for a particular profession.

X Cytherea X · Nov 17, 2007, 01:16 AM // 01:16

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It basically means you get to play melee while ignoring half of the limitations of melee

you say this ALL the time. what's wrong with it? in any game, hell, in real life, bending the rules to create advantageous situations is necessary to win. sometimes you HAVE to force a kill.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 17, 2007, 01:41 AM // 01:41

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Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

you say this ALL the time. what's wrong with it? in any game, hell, in real life, bending the rules to create advantageous situations is necessary to win. sometimes you HAVE to force a kill.

Because melee is mostly balanced because of the limitations of melee. That is what forces melee to require skill and allows sufficient counters. Take those out and suddenly a huge aspect of the skill-based play of melee is gone, along with a huge number of counters.

Of course, that aspect of assassins wasn't my problem. (at least for SP sins) My problem is that they never had to worry about energy, never had to worry about positioning, didn't have to worry about block (expose), didn't have to worry about snares, didn't have to worry about self-survival skills (KD), and still were the best way of instagibbing people that there was. There simply shouldn't be something that powerful at killing UNLESS it takes massive amounts of skill to play, and assassins didn't take that skill but still killed that well.

Lorekeeper · Nov 17, 2007, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

you say this ALL the time. what's wrong with it? in any game, hell, in real life, bending the rules to create advantageous situations is necessary to win. sometimes you HAVE to force a kill.

But with that sort of reasoning balance would be impossible... this is a game that exists in a extremely highly controlled environment... you cannot draw comparisons to the apparent lawlessness of life. One big reason why people play games is because of the amount of control they have over the outcome of their participation and the predictability of outcomes involved in the game... as opposed to how things are in life... where as you point out... even rules can be broken. You cant tell one set of players to play with one set of rules and limitations and then bundle them with another set of players who play with completely different set of rules and limitations... all players in a game must compete under the same rules otherwise the competition just becomes meaningless.

The underlying argument against assassins is that they just do not fit within the existing framework of game mechanics that form the foundation of balance between classes.

granted... the assassin class has been hit with the nerfbat so hard it doesnt matter where they shadowstep anymore.

but the fact that the class needed to be nerfed so hard speaks volumes about the way the class was implemented into the game in the first place.

not very well.

The same goes for ritualists... with spawning power and paragons with leadership... and dervishes with mysticism... all 4 new classes have had their primary attributes or broken builds associated with their primary attributes nerfed.

ritualist spirits got nerfed because they slowed GvG almost to a halt.

paragon motivation and other party buffing shouts got nerfed (incoming etc) cos they made paragon teams almost invincible (along with armour stacking bonuses)

dervish mysticism got nerfed because of the faction sneak peak weekend d/mo builds (along with cop)

assassin SP and aod sins have been nerfed because they allow ganking for dummies and teleporting warriors (the only nerf that isnt linked to the new classes primary attribute but instead linked to a particular special ability linked to the assassin class - the shadowstep).

if a class has to break the rules of the game to become a viable option... the class needs to be reworked in order to fit in with the rules of the game.

mesmers are the only class that can ''break'' certain rules... like being able to spec any other caster skills and use them at 16 spec with signet of illusions. Or by being able to ''steal'' other casters spells or reduce the recharge of their own spells or reduce the cast time of their spells. Fortunately the mesmer class has been able to ''break'' rules without being a broken class responsible for breaking the meta.

The challenge is... and has always been... can Anet balance other broken classes/primary attributes/skills the same way?

moriz · Nov 17, 2007, 02:30 AM // 02:30

anyways, onto a different but related topic: why was horns nerfed, instead of blades of steel?

well, the answer is that BoS is one of those poorly designed skills that can only exist in two forms: marginal, in which case no one will use it. or powerful, in which case it is broken.

currently, a nerf to the damage of BoS will reduce it's damage onto the same class of death blossom. any less that a 15 damage nerf will be meaningless. in that instance, what's the point of running BoS over death blossom? none. this proves that BoS is a poorly designed skill, because any meaningful nerfs to will destroy it completely, and any buffs to it will make it insane. there are no middle grounds for these kind of skills. as a result, izzy chose to focus on horns, which can exist quite well despite having its damage relatively neutered, since it serves a useful purpose.

the same argument can be extended to the entire assassin profession. they essentially have two things going for them: big burst damage, and teleports. if we nerf the burst damage by any meaningful amount, the profession simply becomes entirely marginal. any meaningful buffs, and they become broken. nerfing shadowstepping is not an option, since the profession is tied so intimately with it. a meaningful nerf to shadowstepping will completely destroy the entire profession. a meaningful buff to it, and... you get the idea.

for such a profession like the assassin, it is best to keep it entirely marginal, simply for the good of the game. yes their role will probably be reduced to a marginally effective base ganker with the ability to quickly collapse, but that does not break the game. having them being powerful certainly will.

X Cytherea X · Nov 17, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

yeah but they devote their whole bar to one purpose, sacrificing all utility other than those which lead to the kill. a worthy price to pay for what they want to achieve... instagib.

which WAS a non-conformist but positive aspect of the game. monk reflexes got sharper than ever. midliners and runners and archers lived in constant fear. (omg am i next?) etc.

not every class should be required to TAB-hmm what skill to use-TAB-hmm what skill to use-TAB in order to be considered acceptable.

moriz · Nov 17, 2007, 03:10 AM // 03:10

incorrect. devoting their whole bar to one purpose is bad for the game. especially if the end result, instagib someone, is powerful enough to cause people to do it.

having something that does big damage, but forces people to jump through hoops in order to achieve it... and you'll find people who really will jump through those hoops, if the end result is powerful enough. for example, the heroway discord spike that was plaguing gvg a while back. it required the target to be both hexed AND conditioned, but delivered a 120 damage per spiker, 5 energy, 1s cast, 5s recharge, armor ignoring spike. and that required an entire TEAM to deliver it.

now take a look at the SP lolsins. it gives the same end result, but only require 1 dedicated skillbar.

assassins in their powerful forms were extremely degenerate because of the above, and were a negative aspect of the game. monk reflexes did not sharpen with the introduction to assassins. other characters lived in constant fear of being blown up by a button mashing retard, who really had no business competing on the same level.