Curse

X Cytherea X · Nov 19, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

http://www.guildwars.com/support/gam...ve-2006-10.php

The day Nightfall was released, they dropped Black Lotus Strike's recharge from 20 to 12. At the time, Dark Prison, the best candidate for a primer, also had a 45-second recharge.

but nobody wouldve cared if it didnt have great synergy with the sp bar.

nerfing skills (that are otherwise fine as is) just cuz it fits well on a build is bad practice.

Quote:

That would be heaven

oh wait.. they already have..

only tiger stance is left, but the way things are, there's no need anymore since double black is dead anyway

LifesRestorer · Nov 19, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

i dont get you cytherea... last week you were suggesting SP should be 5 energy again and now you're shouting nerf it? eih?

i do agree that BLS is too far beyond use now though. imo, 5 energy to use, hits even if target foe is not under the effects of a hex

X Cytherea X · Nov 20, 2007, 11:52 AM // 11:52

i am against any nerfs on sins. but if it absolutely must be done id prefer sp nerf over bls... i guess they ran out of ways to screw it further

bls current state is just sad

Div · Nov 20, 2007, 12:04 PM // 12:04

I don't understand the QQing over this. All it means is that you have to put in some offhand attack like fox fangs in the combo to make it work again. Granted, it is probably now slightly weaker than the black mantis combo, but it's still pretty good. Just not instagib.

BlackSephir · Nov 20, 2007, 12:34 PM // 12:34

The thing is, black lotus is now way worse than golden lotus or even regular lotus strike.
The thing is, AN has tendency to overnerf or overbuff skills and bls is great example of overnerfing.
Shocking, I know.

X Cytherea X · Nov 20, 2007, 01:10 PM // 13:10

dont forget bar compression, and the fact that straight to dual is simply more powerful

~ Dan ~ · Nov 20, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

only tiger stance is left, but the way things are, there's no need anymore since double black is dead anyway

This is what i don't get. Isn't the idea of an assassin to pick a target and kill it FAST?

Yes, there is a fine line between killing fast, and being overpowered. But if you want to nerf every ias out there.. give the sins an ias for pvp!!!

Sun Fired Blank · Nov 20, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

I think most people agree that sins should be a utility class, not a "you die" class, but you basically have this situation.

- Most sin skills are crap outside of chains, so you have to use chains.
- Most possible chains suck because leads and faux-chain skills (e.g. Mantis Touch) suck.
- Most chains don't stop sucking until they hit the duals in the chain.
- Most chains that don't suck are therefore chains that effectively skip leads, don't bother with faux-chain skills and pack multiple duals. Post update, the only two chains that do this are using Golden Phoenix Strike or Black Mantis Thrust.
- The only exception chains that don't blatantly suck are Shattering Assault spam and the assacaster build.
- The assacaster build is a stupid gimmick powered by Deadly Paradox, which prevents the realistic improvement of the Deadly Arts and Shadow Arts lines.

So the sin basically has four uses now, all of which are not constructive in my mind. You pack a scythe and you abuse huge criticals, you pack a GPS or BMT chain and gank, you saw through prot with Shattering Assault or you triple KD someone with Deadly Paradox-enabled crap until Augury kicks in and they die. And while I don't really have a good way to fix this situation, I think the status quo is really pathetic.

Riotgear · Nov 20, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

but nobody wouldve cared if it didnt have great synergy with the sp bar.

nerfing skills (that are otherwise fine as is) just cuz it fits well on a build is bad practice.

SP is indeed quite retarded and I would love to never see its skill icon pop up ever again, but BLS was basically a broken skill waiting for a use. Its lack of use was dependent on a really bad recharge and the lack of a decent primer, both of which got fixed at once. In order for BLS to be balanced, all of the potential triggers for it basically have to suck, because the only alternative at the time, Golden Phoenix Strike, had the same cost without the 14 energy return.

Seeing as Izzy dropped the recharge of several other shadow steps from their abysmal 45r (including Dark Prison), this probably would have become an issue eventually even if it wasn't from SP. Just look at all of the repeated claiming that if SP gets nerfed, the instagib combo would just pop up again with only minor changes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

I think most people agree that sins should be a utility class, not a "you die" class, but you basically have this situation.

Pretty much, yes. Then again, if they want to actually salvage the class, they need to clean up the trash first. SP spike was overpowered, so the only real way to make anything else on an Assassin viable was to make it also overpowered, and it's impossible to tell if any reasonablebuffs are working well if SP spike is still better. This obviously doesn't work, so guess what the first step is?

Bankai · Nov 20, 2007, 03:02 PM // 15:02

The problem with Black lotus strike is that it not only gives the opportunity to quickly use a dual attack mid-chain, it also gives you the energy you need for that dual attack. Without black lotus/falling lotus it's hard to complete a 7-skill combo.

Sun Fired Blank · Nov 20, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Then again, if they want to actually salvage the class, they need to clean up the trash first. SP spike was overpowered, so the only real way to make anything else on an Assassin viable was to make it also overpowered, and it's impossible to tell if any reasonablebuffs are working well if SP spike is still better. This obviously doesn't work, so guess what the first step is?

If you wanted my opinion, at this point you should just throw out every lead skip in the book, which, if memory serves, there are four (not including palm strike): Golden Phoenix Strike, Falling Spider, Falling Lotus Strike, Black Spider Strike. And while you're at it, throw out Deadly Paradox. Then maybe you could actually see in what respects the sin is lacking.

Bankai · Nov 20, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Actually, I think that falling spider should stay, as it doesn't give the awesome rewards of the other lead skips. It's quite conditional (you either need one of the horns, which will be very hard to get by without lead skipping, and are also both conditional, or you need to use shock, which has quite a steep cost) and you don't get any energy to pump out another dual attack.

Riotgear · Nov 20, 2007, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Then maybe you could actually see in what respects the sin is lacking.

I said I agree with you. The class design is full of fail.

My point is that SP spike had to be brought down to even begin to tell if other repairs to the class were being productive or not. How do you balance a class when it's completely gimp except for one or two overpowered attack chains?

The answer is you can't. Give them 20 balanced options and they'll run one of those overpowered ones instead. It needed to happen.

The entire design of the class is screwed, really, but what it needs to move towards is more-repeatable combos, effective lead-offhand-dual combinations instead of double-dual, and better utility (especially from Deadly Arts). The last part in particular is kind of key, there was a lot of potential to make the class bring a variety of interesting effects to the battlefield, most of which has been ruined by terrible design and some that can't even begin to be viable because of Deadly Paradox abuse.

Sun Fired Blank · Nov 20, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

The point is that you're creating an argument where one doesn't exist. I don't disagree with you on anything, but at this point (and in stark contrast to my prior argument about SP), I think we should eradicate every lead-skip. Whether you intend it or not, you are basically regurgitating everything that I say in a fashion to paint me as disagreeable, and I really don't appreciate it.

On Falling Spider / Falling Lotus Strike; the problem is that either is just another lead skip with Trampling Ox. BMT to Jungle Strike or Golden Phoenix Strike under Grenth's Grasp instantly gives you the condition that fulfills Trampling Ox, making the knockdown condition superfluous.

Riotgear · Nov 21, 2007, 06:26 AM // 06:26

I realize we're quite in agreement here. I just saw that comment about being able to "actually see in what respects the sin is lacking" as a point where you appeared to disagree.

I called for lead-skip eradication a long time ago, which inevitably brought up the counterpoint of lead-offhand-dual sucking all kinds of ass, and forcing it basically means making the class blow because lead-skips were the only way to get anything realistic done.

I've seen that as one of the biggest design failures of the class, though in retrospect, I'm not sure exactly how to approach it now. With 1/2-sec offhands and the increased power of Wild Strike, along with the decreasing power of lead skips (except Golden Phoenix Strike, no idea what they were thinking there), lead-skips appear to finally be getting a reasonable price tag attached relative to non-skips.

The bigger problem is that I'm not sure that's the best approach anyway: The way the class manages attack chains really need to be thought over from the ground up with a real objective, and get rid of all the crap that interferes with that objective. Unfortunately, it's a bit late for an overhaul, because the devs have mostly stopped giving a shit.

Oh yeah, and Trampling Ox is stupid. Yet another Assassin skill introduced that pretends its conditionality is difficult to meet.

Sniffy · Nov 21, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Were Tiger Stance sins overpowered? Maybe. Though I don't think they were nearly as overpowered as the assacassters are. If they really need to nerf the Tiger Stance build, why couldn't they nerf something else instead of such a basic, useful, neccessary, sin skill. All of the nerfs annoy me to some extent, but I mainly want Lotus back....

TheOneMephisto · Nov 21, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Dual lead skip chains are bad.

Black lotus is one of the biggest things allowing dua lead skips (lead skip + emanagement for the rest of the chain).

Therefore, black lotus should die.

I'm fine with lead skips as long as they're used in short combos that aren't designed to instagib things, but rather designed to do off-spikes and spike support on otherwise utility characters (like GPS/BSS->blossom->impale on an otherwise utility sin). But dual lead skips are retarded and deserved to die, and the black lotus nerf did a lot to help that.

Tamuril elansar · Nov 24, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

this was good, but imo they should nerf the way to get around lead attacks.

R A N D O M · Nov 24, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

i quite liked this nerf, it helped with something iv been playing around with a while now
BLS
temple strike
critical strike
black spider strike
twisting fangs
fragility
deaths charge
dash
loving it in AB, something good came out of that nerf

Risus · Nov 25, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Please people stop complaining that it screwed up your Shadow Prison build. There is a new one, but don't get addicted on that please. Shadow Prison isn't the only Assassin elite skill, jesus...