Curse

Byron · Nov 16, 2007, 06:02 PM // 18:02

If done right, its abilities are great. Maps like frozen and imperial are expecially tasty, becuase a solo sin doesn't dictate a split build.

http://gwshack.us/6d51d

*Update 1 = http://gwshack.us/1b9ac

The power is gank primarily, but it also has the ability to power play at the stand, either harassing low-armor targets or picking on overextenders. Being with a cripshot, I also think the flag control capability is just fantastic (certainly now that flaggers are more fragile in general).

And clearly, this build isn't so good at 7v7 stand slugfests. Other concerns: party heals, mesmer bar, res sigs, shadow refuge.

Any comments or flames appreciated.

Captain Robo · Nov 19, 2007, 03:48 AM // 03:48

I really like it

It Hearkens back to the old-style split builds.

You can force a dedicated split with the ranger, runner, and assassin, (or if you're ballsy, the Sin and Ranger) while your offense still maintains decent pressure, and there's enough defense in a Me/E Warder and linebacking hammer warrior to keep people alive.

However, I'd opt for a bit more damage on the mesmer; Energy Surge/Burn don't do as much edenial as power leak does by itself; and there's better options if you're using them for damage. Hell, I'd just go with Shatter Enchant and Mantra of Recovery in place of Surge/Burn. Shatter doesn't do as much damage as Surge+Burn, but you still strip an enchant which allows the warriors to continue stomping the target.

That kind of mesmer is a bit more cookie cutter, but it works well.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 19, 2007, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Basic Stuff:

On warrior 1 - You don't need Executioners and Body Blow. Pick one or the other and put an interrupt in the extra slot.

On warrior 2 - Take Bash over Heavy. Everyone runs RC.

On the mesmer: I'm not a fan of E-surge over HEV, though a lot of teams take it. I think it's better to have an elite that's game-winning occasionally than an elite that's near-useless almost all of the time.

The overall concept:

I think you're going to find that the sin is useful in a few situations (running around/collapses on frozen) and useless in a lot of them. The single sin isn't going to drop a competent monk or rit flagger, and any single character can defend the base against him. He's also not enough pressure to force a wipe just because the stand is one character down.

With clever use of AoD he could successfully gank a couple archers and get out alive, but the bulk of a base is going to remain relatively safe if it's competently defended.

Of course, you can do what Robo suggested and send him off as part of a larger split, but his elite feels like a waste at that stage. AoD is primarily useful as an escape mechanism for the assassin, but if the rest of your split is still going to get wiped it's not that useful. I'd rather take a third warrior.

Captain Robo · Nov 19, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Yeah, I'd consider some alternate assassin builds in place of AoD.

I personally think this build is just the bee's knees (and not completely retarded, like most other sin builds):

Critical Strikes 12+1
Dagger Mastery 11+1+1
Healing Prayers 6
Protection Prayers 2

Palm Strike
Horns of the Ox
Falling Spider
Twisting Fangs
Restful Breeze
Mending Touch
Shadow Walk
Dash

Whether you take Restful or Shadow Refuge is a matter of preference (I'm partial to restful, for the duration), but you won't be casting either while in shadow walk, so it makes no difference.

Give it a shot, you might like this version

Byron · Nov 20, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Thanks for the advice. The warrior bars do need some updating. And AoD does seem fragile, now that I think about it. The point of the build was to have a solo ganker, though.

...So, are there any solo ganker templates that are viable, besides ranger?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I think it's better to have an elite that's game-winning occasionally than an elite that's near-useless almost all of the time.

I heart HEV, but on a ward mes, it feels like there's already enough filler skills. If snare flaggers were still very popular, then I would definitely take HEV. Also, e-surge is supplemental damage where there is no shatter. Either way, I suppose it's not highest priroity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Give it a shot, you might like this version

I will. The idea seems nifty.

Seamus Finn · Nov 20, 2007, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Critical Strikes 12+1
Dagger Mastery 11+1+1
Healing Prayers 6
Protection Prayers 2

Palm Strike
Horns of the Ox
Falling Spider
Twisting Fangs
Restful Breeze
Mending Touch
Shadow Walk
Dash

What exactly is palm strike fufilling so well that Golden Pheonix doesn't do on an AoD bar? Enough to warrent losing shock and downgrading AoD to shadow walk and dash? I can't see how.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 20, 2007, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

What exactly is palm strike fufilling so well that Golden Pheonix doesn't do on an AoD bar? Enough to warrent losing shock and downgrading AoD to shadow walk and dash? I can't see how.

QFT. Palm strike->GPS and shadow walk/dash->AoD. Then you get another skill to play with, probably shock.

Captain Robo · Nov 20, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Enchantment removal puts your positioning at the mercy of the enemy team. You don't lose any damage on your combo (in some cases, its even more damaging) by running Palm Strike, and you make room for Mending Touch and Restful Breeze on the bar.

The original ramifications of this build, as mentioned by the OP, were to allow solo splits. A shock sin is not as durable on his own as the build I posted. If you're going to be splitting with the runner at all times, run AoD shock. If not, you need to have room for survival skills.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 21, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Enchantment removal puts your positioning at the mercy of the enemy team. You don't lose any damage on your combo (in some cases, its even more damaging) by running Palm Strike, and you make room for Mending Touch and Restful Breeze on the bar.

The original ramifications of this build, as mentioned by the OP, were to allow solo splits. A shock sin is not as durable on his own as the build I posted. If you're going to be splitting with the runner at all times, run AoD shock. If not, you need to have room for survival skills.

I'm pretty sure that

GPS
horns
falling
twisting
AoD
Restful/refuge
Mending
[free slot]

Is still more powerful than your palm strike version. In fact, you could even run a cheap cover enchant (like vigorous?) or something in that free slot if you wanted to. The fact is that AoD just opens up so many options that shadow walk/dash doesn't have due to the fact that you can maintain it as long as you want.

Seamus Finn · Nov 21, 2007, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Enchantment removal puts your positioning at the mercy of the enemy team. You don't lose any damage on your combo (in some cases, its even more damaging) by running Palm Strike, and you make room for Mending Touch and Restful Breeze on the bar.

If you run shdow refuge or restful breeze you can cover your AoD for when you expect an enchant removal(the characters being run with this capacity are pretty easy to spot). The only benfit I see is that your first hit can't be blocked. On a 4 hit chain this isn't really that appealing. Also, you are on a 10 second recharge instead of an 8 second recharge for a +damage attack. Lastly, you basically slotted out shock for mtouch and restful for shadow refuge. Where is the bar compression? All I see is substiting at a ratio of 1:1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

The original ramifications of this build, as mentioned by the OP, were to allow solo splits. A shock sin is not as durable on his own as the build I posted. If you're going to be splitting with the runner at all times, run AoD shock. If not, you need to have room for survival skills.

The only added durability you added is mtouch which is in the shock slot. So you trade kd and offensive versatility for more defense, but the choice is still viable on AoD. It should be noted, however, that AoD provides FAR more defensive utility for the sin than a mend touch ever could and a great deal more than shadow walk a well. Shadow walk gives you basically an aggro bubble to work with, but an AoD sin can manage his anchors to pull him a radar away and thus has far less need of flagger support. You certainly have posted a comparable bar to the AoD with a few defensive skills sltted in favor of a more offensive variant, but the bar is merely comparable and thoroughly inferior on a gvg map, I believe.

|Readem| · Nov 21, 2007, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Swap Bblow for more utility (dstrike/dchop). Lose GoLE on both of your monks. Would probably lose infuse on the WoH, but that is entirely up to your monk. Swap for Heal Party/SoA/Kiss, and make sure the RC has touch. Drop Life for FoMF or DPS.

Captain Robo · Nov 21, 2007, 05:56 AM // 05:56

It's more or less a matter of preference. I really like the Palm Strike build, because in my mind, that's what an assassin should be. It's not overpowered but still very effective when played correctly, and the mechanics of the teleport allow for some diversity in an ocean of AoD/Shadow Prison.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Nov 21, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

It's more or less a matter of preference. I really like the Palm Strike build, because in my mind, that's what an assassin should be. It's not overpowered but still very effective when played correctly, and the mechanics of the teleport allow for some diversity in an ocean of AoD/Shadow Prison.

Its less versitale and is less offensive.

Captain Robo · Nov 21, 2007, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

Its less versitale and is less offensive.

It may not be as versatile, but it is not less offensive.

Even if by a little bit, its still slightly more offensive. The only skill that differentiates the attack combinations is Palm Strike, which does 75 Armor-Ignoring damage. Even with a critical hit, Golden Phoenix Strike doesn't do as much damage. Your base damage goes up, at least by a little bit. Furthermore, Palm Strike will hit the target regardless of inhibitive conditions or block stances/enchantments are on the target.

Golden Phoenix Strike requires a prerequisite enchantment, and can still be blocked. Palm Strike goes through block, requires nothing but you to trigger the skill. It removes a degree of failure from the attack chain.

I agree, Aura of Displacement is a good enough teleport that Palm Strike probably doesn't merit the elite slot without a more significant damage increase; but at any rate, I enjoy playing the build, the build does have its merits, and it is viable. The bottom line is: play whatever you want, its just a suggestion.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 21, 2007, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

It may not be as versatile, but it is not less offensive.

Even if by a little bit, its still slightly more offensive. The only skill that differentiates the attack combinations is Palm Strike, which does 75 Armor-Ignoring damage. Even with a critical hit, Golden Phoenix Strike doesn't do as much damage. Your base damage goes up, at least by a little bit. Furthermore, Palm Strike will hit the target regardless of inhibitive conditions or block stances/enchantments are on the target.

Golden Phoenix Strike requires a prerequisite enchantment, and can still be blocked. Palm Strike goes through block, requires nothing but you to trigger the skill. It removes a degree of failure from the attack chain.

I agree, Aura of Displacement is a good enough teleport that Palm Strike probably doesn't merit the elite slot without a more significant damage increase; but at any rate, I enjoy playing the build, the build does have its merits, and it is viable. The bottom line is: play whatever you want, its just a suggestion.

Shadow walk has a 30 sec recharge.

Basically, all you're doing is substituting a much worse and less versatile shadow step combination in order to br able to bring palm strike. Palm strike IS NOT worth giving up the ridiculous versatility that AoD gives you. You're losing almost all ability to collapse and outmaneuver enemy splits by losing AoD.

The build has almost no merits in comparison with an AoD build. An unblockable offhand, as said before, isn't that useful in a 4 combo chain.

Basically, there's no reason anyone would ever want to run that build over an AoD build.

Captain Robo · Nov 21, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

So don't.

I just like that build

TheOneMephisto · Nov 21, 2007, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

So don't.

I just like that build

I'm just stating that using that build isn't really a matter of preference, it's a matter of intentionally gimping yourself because you want to be unique or the build is arbitrarily more fun, or something like that. If you want to win, then you'd use the AoD build over that.

Byron · Nov 21, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Updated the build.. (posted in OP)

Warrior bars are now solid.

Flagger changed to Rt/A because 'life' is unreliable at best.

AoD sin remains; shadow refuge is nice for ganking and cover enchant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by |Readem|

Lose GoLE on both of your monks.

Without a reliable party heal, it's pretty important that aegis gets casted. As for the rest of the bar, it would be up to the backliners who are playing. Those posted are just my personal preference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by |Readem|

Drop Life for FoMF or DPS

Ech, not on a flagger...

Guillaume De Sonoma · Nov 22, 2007, 12:50 AM // 00:50

When I said less offensive I meant that you lost shock, which is key to the build.

zling · Nov 25, 2007, 01:52 AM // 01:52

now that everyone and their mother runs RC due to the LoD nerf the usual hammer chain is very fragile, and Devastating without Fierce and/or Heavy just seems pointless... thus I think Hammer Warriors should convert to Backbreaker. a slightly higher adrenaline cost for a 4 sec kd and extra dmg! thus gaining even more versatility. also why do you need both Rush and Enraging Charge? 1 of them is enough Imho.
if you really dislike Backbreaker you can play with different elites, yeah those unused elites from the Tactics and Strength lines...

also, I notice neither Warrior has a self heal or some sort of defensive skill. with the Lod nerf it's pretty mandatory for the other chars to pick up the slack...

I think your Monks will be better off without Aegis and GoLE but with small cheap prots and some self survival skills, Return and/or Dark Escape, Shield Bash and/or Defensive/Disciplined Stance, Natural Stride, etc...

as for your Sin, if you want it to go solo than AoD is probably the way to go, if you want to send him on some sort of split you can work out better options. the unblockable Shattering Assault combo is devastating, and so are some other unused combos due to the over popularity of the SP Sins...

I think the Surge+Burn combo is pretty weak compared to the newer options the Mesmers received. and whichever way you choose to go with your Dom Mesmer you forgot the most important skill on a Dom Mesmer's bar: Blackout!
just think of the possibilities, the Hammer Warrior knocks 1 of the Monks down for 4 seconds while the Dom Mesmer Blackouts the other. so you have 4 Monk free seconds! imagine what your team can do with such a luxury.