Curse

Takida · Oct 11, 2007, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

Nothing happend, they never existed. It is all in your head.
I cannot belive that ppl are burly 20 years old and remember the "good old days" like they were 80.

In the old days it was: IWAY and RSPIKE and BSPIKE and VIMWAY and then some Thumpers and SF and dual smith and then spiritway and Steady...

And this is just from the time I started palying HA. There were other FOTM going way back to the start...

Yeah cause Balanced was never played right? ...................

Trylo · Oct 11, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52

i dunno what happened ... i came back from not playing GW for like a month or two and then i go to HA... LF SWAY! R3+. that was it. on the ENTIRE party search. there were 7/8 teams just listing that. it almost made me cry.

To OP: warriors are, actually, a hard class to play right. all classes are hard to play right. when you find people who just want to get fame... you get thumpers. theyre the easiest melee class to play up to date (mel dervs at least have to pick targets... <_<). DA, Aegis, wards, they all kill melee pressure really. thats what happened to rspikes also, DA will ruin the spike because, unlike aegis, is unstripable. i really dont know why people dont start bringing rits with guided weapon but w/e.

im not sure what you mean by shut down builds... theres still a mes spot on all my HA teams, and theres also steady stance/fear me sins that pretty much are shut down at its ... finest. i really want that funny 3 sins/fear me, well of weariness, NR+Famine build to come back... that was one of my favs

only players who have good friends that HA often play balanced. i would never even think about playing balance with a pug.

im seriously thinking about starting a team with 2 mo/5 para/1 nec with defile defenses and spiking with an initial attack and a 1/2 speed attack... thats how low HA has become to me. there needs to be an overhaul in many skills and quite a few class mechanics.

masta_yoda · Oct 13, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

There was always fotm teams, but back then there were teams also willing to take risks and play somethign different. Where did they go?

thats back then, good players quit, and if u want to try a new build you will fail vs shit way and lego way
kthnx

elektra_lucia · Oct 13, 2007, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Your post is not correct at all and not all good players quit. Sure some did, but so did some bad ones too. That's what happens when a game gets old, regardless of if the developers screw it up.

Sorry to bring another game into this, but it is kind of relevant. I have found on other games, people have said 'people aren't as good now as they used to be' or 'I'm not like I used to be'. Then you study old demo's, their hardware, connection and what do you find?

Better performance. Why?

People got used to the old skill level so average skill level increases over time.
Better connections help for better performance. I would say that in England, connections every year have got much better (sadly mine breaks the rule and ping has got worse this last year or two, but whatever). Guild wars has been out two.
Faster computers. Smoother play.
Better mice. Easier to control, and more precise.
Better keyboards.

A top player may play in a certain way, and people will learn off him. Then there'll be a new top player and people will learn off that. So eventually people learn from better people.

Now, the reason I bring this up is it possible the over all skill level in guild wars increased? Think of all those absolutely TERRIBLE and there's no doubt about it, they were terrible, IWAY players. Then just the wammo's with mending.

You don't see so much of that about, that's for sure. Sure there's more skills for people to choose from.

Now this theory could be totally wrong, so don't flame me for it, if so. I don't know if it's wrong or right, just an idea but do you think it could be so for this game too with over all skill level?

masta_yoda · Oct 14, 2007, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Your post is not correct at all and not all good players quit. Sure some did, but so did some bad ones too. That's what happens when a game gets old, regardless of if the developers screw it up.

Sorry to bring another game into this, but it is kind of relevant. I have found on other games, people have said 'people aren't as good now as they used to be' or 'I'm not like I used to be'. Then you study old demo's, their hardware, connection and what do you find?

Better performance. Why?

People got used to the old skill level so average skill level increases over time.
Better connections help for better performance. I would say that in England, connections every year have got much better (sadly mine breaks the rule and ping has got worse this last year or two, but whatever). Guild wars has been out two.
Faster computers. Smoother play.
Better mice. Easier to control, and more precise.
Better keyboards.

A top player may play in a certain way, and people will learn off him. Then there'll be a new top player and people will learn off that. So eventually people learn from better people.

Now, the reason I bring this up is it possible the over all skill level in guild wars increased? Think of all those absolutely TERRIBLE and there's no doubt about it, they were terrible, IWAY players. Then just the wammo's with mending.

You don't see so much of that about, that's for sure. Sure there's more skills for people to choose from.

Now this theory could be totally wrong, so don't flame me for it, if so. I don't know if it's wrong or right, just an idea but do you think it could be so for this game too with over all skill level?

cbf reading all u wrote, but let me re-phrase what i said.

yes some of the good players quit, and obviously skill level does increase over time, what i mean, well in my opinion is that the players who wanted to take risk arent here or dont want to anymore.

Apok Omen · Oct 14, 2007, 06:45 AM // 06:45

I miss WoH/HP and WoH/Infuse...

elektra_lucia · Oct 14, 2007, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by masta_yoda

cbf reading all u wrote, but let me re-phrase what i said.

yes some of the good players quit, and obviously skill level does increase over time, what i mean, well in my opinion is that the players who wanted to take risk arent here or dont want to anymore.

Can't be arsed reading what you wrote.

Quote:

I miss WoH/HP and WoH/Infuse...

?

SB/Infuse don't you mean?

Whirlwind · Oct 14, 2007, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

I admire the people who can mash 12345678 and not get bored

Oh you must mean the assassin Hero battle teams =P

xhappy feetx · Oct 14, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Where have all the fun matches gone. What happened to the players that were willing to take bigger risks in thier builds for better rewards. What happened to things like

Dual warrior pressure builds
Shut Down Builds
Rangers with bows (wtf, who thougth rangers could use bows)
HA in general

I'd point out the power creep in skills. Not only offensive skills, but defensive skills like DA which largely prevents phyiscal pressure builds from making a return. But even the general increase in the power of skills does nothing to blunt the argument that fewer skilled players play the format. The only thing left are the farmers, who have no interest in doing anything other than playing something tried and true.

If someone can crack the defensive system that exists now then they will feast on meta, ward against melee was recently semi-nerfed but they can't nerf DA again, incoming was nerfed heavily, i liked that skill alot..

Avatar Exico · Oct 14, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

Nothing happend, they never existed. It is all in your head.
I cannot belive that ppl are burly 20 years old and remember the "good old days" like they were 80.

In the old days it was: IWAY and RSPIKE and BSPIKE and VIMWAY and then some Thumpers and SF and dual smith and then spiritway and Steady...

And this is just from the time I started palying HA. There were other FOTM going way back to the start...

Hehe those were good old days. during B-spike got the FoC Spike. EoE bomb was invented before EOE got nerfed and the good Unlimited MF build. Ppl ran it for fun I think it went all down to. Now it all the Fame to get r9 as fast as can so that they can show it off in PvE or Get in Top Rank Guilds to do GVG with no skill in GVG they just do they dont know to use Balanced builds right.

Takida · Oct 15, 2007, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avatar Exico

Hehe those were good old days. during B-spike got the FoC Spike. EoE bomb was invented before EOE got nerfed and the good Unlimited MF build. Ppl ran it for fun I think it went all down to. Now it all the Fame to get r9 as fast as can so that they can show it off in PvE or Get in Top Rank Guilds to do GVG with no skill in GVG they just do they dont know to use Balanced builds right.

Yeah agreed, b4 ppl made fun builds and could still get fame while laughing.. now .. if u laugh by calling da or pressing hammerbash i guess u can be happy.....

wuzzman · Oct 24, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

first i just wanted to say i dont understand why there are posts whining about rank in this thread. Surely the locked thread involving that topic is enough indication of how pointless those discussions tend to be.

on topic.

unfortunately its was never easy to run a build of the nature you wish to see. A friend of mine once described my builds as builds of finesse. I used to run all sorts of great builds, sometimes with rangers using bows, sometimes with an odd mixture of hexes, sometimes with condition overload, sometimes even with famine.

and to be honest i have given up. Purely because the playerbase does not provide the resources for me to run these builds anymore. I would say that the number of truly original build innovators is directly proportional to the amount of truly good players in HA. And in all honesty, the number of truly good players in HA is pitiful.

There really isnt any point for anyone with the ability to come up with new and exciting and dangerous new builds to do so, the market for them is so small. Why put so much effort into providing a service for such a tiny audience? Why put the effort into providing a service to an audience who in all honesty cannot guarantee to make full use of that service as it was intended?

Basically the amount of build innovators of the builds you speak of is indirectly proportional to the amount of gimmick players in HA. And there are quite ALOT of those.

Its one of the reasons why i have given up running anything but the simplest of balanced builds, when i do HA i dont form teams anymore, all i do is monk for people who are desperate for a good monk.

you see, its not designing builds thats hard, thats easy. Anyone good at analysing the meta, who understand the skills in the game, and is experienced in making successful builds can do so.

the difficult task is finding the players who are not only WILLING to play something that requires a bit more thought and skill, but players who are ABLE to play something like that.

One big reason why builds like lego way, spiritway, iway, bloodspike, paraway etc etc became such successful gimmicks is because you could afford to have 2-3 horrible players in the team without it having a detrimental effect on your success. In legoway, its not difficult to play the 2 paragons. In spiritway, the thumpers can get away with training monks and spirit spamming was never a intellectually demanding task. In iway, the warriors trained monks. In paraway the paragons T-space the called targets and spam their shouts/echoes/chants on recharge.

in a build of finesse, every player must perform to an extremely high standard. In builds i design, every player has an extremely important task, if one aspect of the build fails to perform to its intended purpose, the whole build collapses.

these types of builds never become gimmick.

and there really arent that many players left who are good enough to play them.

thats why theyve disappeared.

QFT. I used to come up with builds too but the game is no longer able to support players like me. Now when I HA I just do it because I lack other online games to play (god the online market is shallow on competitive games outside of first-person shooters). Its just run this gimmick, run this balance gimmick, maybe guildies for a HoH run but...it ain't fun anymore. Players alot stupider...I link it to the decline in TA. When AB was created alot of players migrated to the new noob arena and left TA behind...now players who HA are AB/RA'ers instead of TA/GVG'ers.

anyway even without that the HA I remember still didn't foster a growing player community let alone intelligence. Players would spend months still in the same horrible pugs still they randomly meet a none jackass. In the end, HA decline was just going to happen regardless of Anet being...anet. Ultimately 90% of players who stop HA'ing will list player community not "ZOMG NOOOOB UPDATE!! WAY TO GO ANET!!!" for their reason they stopped.

Lord Mendes · Oct 26, 2007, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

What happened to the players that were willing to take bigger risks in thier builds for better rewards?

They found out that HA doesn't accomodate their playstyles.

Killed u man · Oct 26, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

in a build of finesse, every player must perform to an extremely high standard. In builds i design, every player has an extremely important task, if one aspect of the build fails to perform to its intended purpose, the whole build collapses.

Yes, Running a taint necro requires so much skill... Or dual Migraine, each camping a monk, also require so much skill...

I have to give it to ya, you often run "new" builds, but still you pretty much always have that fire ele for the massive aoe U NEED IN CAPTURE POINTS.

The reason why HA is so bad is 2 things: Capture Points and Relic Run. Just look at the facts: Ever since these new conditions were added: No more Smiting monks, No more CG rangers (In balanced anyways), No more Hex pressure (Sure that Eoe bomb (hex) was meta for 1 week, but it was so easy beatable in Halls), etc etc.

People complained about how only old-school holding promoted hyper defensive builds. Now look at HA: More lame, even lesser skill involved, meta is worse than ever... (In the old days, about 40-60% would run the meta, now it's about 90-95%)

There is TOO many conditions in Halls, look at the facts:

U want to make a new balanced:
1) Start with a axe warrior
=> Whoops gotta have some aoe for cap points
2) Add a Fire Ele for capture points
=> Whoops gotta shut down monks for holding
3) Add a Mesmer
=> Whoops, got to have running power
4) Add a paragon with make haste, fallback etc
=> Whoops, need more aoe, otherwise we won't be competitive
5) Add another Fire Ele
=> whoops, forgot about relic run
6) Add a Water ele
=> Whoops, we need splitting capability on cap points
7) Add another paragon
Etc
n-1) RC-monk
n) LoD-monk

Yup, nice balanced, I rule.... WTF, HOW THE HELL DID I END IN THIS "LEGO"-FORM GIMMICK, OMFGZORSROFL

=> There is NO room at all for versatility with all these conditions, thus,
-thumperway with it's massive aoe (splinter anyone), traps to snare, etc
-Flaming thumperway: "" "" ""
-Legoway: runner power, hammer snare, mayby dervish with Foes, etc...

Smurf Minions · Oct 29, 2007, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Went with guild last night into HA, if we would go balanced we would fail very bad, guildies aren't that good and have no experience with HA at all, but with ranger spike they did pretty well, and it was quite fun but still we faced not a snigle time spiritway 0.o, quite some balanced against us. Also we saw a guild group that was coördinating well with balanced, impossible to beat and few seen. The problem is indeed those capture point things, beat them up and bring back scorred earth

elektra_lucia · Oct 29, 2007, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Went with guild last night into HA, if we would go balanced we would fail very bad, guildies aren't that good and have no experience with HA at all, but with ranger spike they did pretty well, and it was quite fun but still we faced not a snigle time spiritway 0.o, quite some balanced against us. Also we saw a guild group that was coördinating well with balanced, impossible to beat and few seen. The problem is indeed those capture point things, beat them up and bring back scorred earth

So rather than risk losing and later improving, play something else and change the game? So logical!

NOooooooooooooooooooooooooot.

shoogi · Nov 13, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Why do we run gimmick builds?

Oh, I don't know... maybe we want to reach a displayable rank so that we can get into groups and run other stuff but such groups won't take unranked?

Gimmick builds will be around for as long as the Hero title track is (and probably longer since they are so effective).

People may claim that since they reached high hero title anyone can... but remember that some of us are having a hard time competing for places with all the r10 people around.

People also forget about that 'wonderful' thing called ebayed high fame accounts.

That's exactly what the iway noobs said back then. "It's iway or nothing, I know that iway is lame c+spacebar but it beats hours of id1 spamming". Ok, they iwayed and got r3. "There are no good r3+ teams so i have to iway". iway up to r6. "All the good players that run good builds are r10+, iway is the only choice". Iway to r9, and so on.

I assure you, my friend, that when you "reach a displayable rank so that you can get into groups and run other stuff that such groups don't take unranked", that other stuff will happen to be the same lame crap that got you there. Don't get me wrong, I ain't blaming you. I'm blaming Anet for bringing tombs to that situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

They found out that HA doesn't accomodate their playstyles.

Exactly. I quit HA a long time ago, and I'm proud of the fact that none of my lame r6 is iwayed or herowayed. I wanted to prove to myself that getting a high rank is possible without pimping myself into disgusting fame farming builds. As I mentioned, I gave up at 1,3k fame when I understood that HA is a complete waste of my time, since it doesn't reward me with any fun. I moved to GvG which I found... better. Shame that my guild isn't active anymore so lately I quit GW entirely, hoping that someday Anet will make a prophecies-only server which I will gladly join

audioaxes · Nov 13, 2007, 11:43 PM // 23:43

some seem pretty anxious to dismiss HA skill. Sure theres a bunch of noobs playing cookie cutter builds but it takes skill to create and execute your own non gimmick build that can do well against all types of matches against all sorts of teams: deathmatch, relic running, altar maps(caping and holding)
I have seen many times a team of HA focused players defeat a top gvg guild in a balanced vs balanced, no gimmick brawl.

Lorekeeper · Nov 14, 2007, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

There is TOO many conditions in Halls, look at the facts:

U want to make a new balanced:
1) Start with a axe warrior
=> Whoops gotta have some aoe for cap points
2) Add a Fire Ele for capture points
=> Whoops gotta shut down monks for holding
3) Add a Mesmer
=> Whoops, got to have running power
4) Add a paragon with make haste, fallback etc
=> Whoops, need more aoe, otherwise we won't be competitive
5) Add another Fire Ele
=> whoops, forgot about relic run
6) Add a Water ele
=> Whoops, we need splitting capability on cap points
7) Add another paragon
Etc
n-1) RC-monk
n) LoD-monk

=> There is NO room at all for versatility with all these conditions, thus,
-thumperway with it's massive aoe (splinter anyone), traps to snare, etc
-Legoway: runner power, hammer snare, mayby dervish with Foes, etc...

Just when i was browsing the forums to find a good thread to read i stumbled upon this thread that someone felt like reviving from the dead. And i found out that i missed this particular gem of a post from none other than Killed u man... who is characterised by such wonderfully well reasoned posts... like the one above (i deleted most of it, to protect everyone from its sheer genius... the world is not yet ready for it /QQ)

i didnt want to pick u up on your complaints about HA, thats been done before... i wanted to point out some things you have said about the limitations on balanced builds in HA atm.

I have quite a few issues with your ''How to make a balanced build guide''.

Its crap, its kinda like the type of balanced build guide id expect an iway warrior to make,

''iway worrior foreva's guide to making a balanced build''

step 1, make axe warrior cos dey kill shit wit a big axe... chop chop!
step 2, make fire ele cos dey got AoE...boom!
step 3, make mesmer because dey shut things down i tink.
step 4, make paragon cos they shout and make you go fasta...weeee!!!
step 5, more fire ele aoe cos aoe makes people blow up.. boom!
step 6, make water ele cos people dat dont run - die
step 7, make another paragon cos they can split...
step 8, make monks cos we die with no monks right?

let me give you my version of the guide to making a balanced build.

1. What is the concept of the build? Conditions (go to A)? Hexes (go to B)? AoE (go to C)? Anti-meta (go to D)? High-defensive adrenal spike (go to E)?

A1. You gonna run tainted flesh? Make a nec or mes/nec
A2. How are you going to shutdown condition removal on the enemy team? Make a mes/nec with humility or a dom mes to shutdown the RC monk.
A3. How are you going to kill stuff thats degening? Make a warrior or dervish or assassin... axe works... sword works... hammer is so so but possible with a good warrior... dervish... owns but it boring to play... assassin? Well it works but its quite a softie so you better have some good monks and some good defence.
A4. How you are going to stay alive? Make air ele... make trapper... make wards on tainted necro...
A5. You got any snares? Make crip slash warrior, crip shot ranger, trapper, ward against foes on ele or nec.
A6. You got any interrupts? Make PD mes, crip shot ranger with dshot and savage shot, gale on air ele, shock on sword warrior, dblow or dchop or dstrike on warrior or dervish/w, ddagger on dervish/ass or ass or w/ass.
A7. You got any aoe at all? Make trapper, put putrid on tainted nec, make profane on tainted nec.
A8. You got good degen? Build can have disease, poison, bleeding, burning, cripple, blind, deep wound... and good shutdown on rc and lod. Plenty of conditions and degen.
A9. You gonna kill? How about bringing a fire ele to add burning and aoe pressure? How about having a warrior who knows how to kill?
A10. You got speed boosts? You can bring speed boosts on air ele, tainted nec, warrior, ranger, mesmer. Storm djinns haste, flame djinns haste, make haste, dash pious haste.
A11. You sure you got enough defense? Give me 2 great monks and ill show you what being a good team is all about.

B1. What hex defense you gonna have? Make curse necro, water ele or inept mesmer.
B2. What hex shutdown you gonna have? Make migraine mes, panic mes with diversion spam.
B3. You got much degen? Take suffering/faintheartedness/parabond on necro, conjure phantasm/images of remorse/conjure nightmare on mesmer.
B4. How you gonna kill? Make axe warrior or hammer warrior, ideally dont want sword cos it allows healing from rc with its conditions, make dervish... make assassin.
B5. You got speed boosts? Storm djinns haste.. flame djinns haste... windborne speed... make haste... pious haste, can go on almost any caster.
B6. You got snares? Water ele... ward foes... grasping earth...
B7. You got interrupts? Mesmer and gale.
B8. You got AoE? Bring fire ele... or dont... you can still win if you are good =)
B9. You got enough degen? Make tainted flesh necro with rising bile and putrid explosion.
B10. You got enough killing power? Make 2 frontliners instead of 1.
B11. You gonna stay alive with a hex build? Yep... just give me those 2 good monks.

C1. You want AoE? Make fire ele... make channeling rit with splinter weapon... make death blossom sin... make dervish...
C2. You got things to keep enemy in AoE? Make water ele, make hammer warrior, make eles with gale.

D1. What is meta? Thumperway? Take aura of stability... take ward of stability... take unnatural signet to kill spirits... gg

E1. You got high defense? Make air ele and/or earth ele and/or water ele and/or 3 monk backline and/or dual DA paragons.
E2. You got high damage? Make lightning orb/bolt or shatterstone or 2 eviscerate or eburn+shatter enchantment or 2 spear of lightning or wearying strike or ancestors rage.

Things to note.

* Most builds can be anti-meta... you only really need aura of stability and a couple of good monks - notice the importance on having 2 good monks. Snares help... some form of defense helps... but most builds have those in many shapes and sizes.
* Most builds can have snares... not just a water ele... crip shot... ward against foes... siphon speed... gale... bulls strike... shock... grasping earth... body blocking?
* Most builds have easy access to speed boosts... windborne speed... storm djinns haste... flame djinns haste... pious haste...
* AoE is NOT required to win capture points, being good at splitting is, being able to react quickly is... being good at the game is.
* There are several other builds you can make... fear me pressure etc etc but they border on the gimmicky side... like dual dervish dual para pressure spike which could qualify for build E.

These are the sorts of criteria i would consider when making a build for HA...

Why is legoway so popular? It is in many ways the easiest balanced build to run but is generally a type E build... high defense adrenal spike... its the best balanced build for beginners to start on, and is highly effective in the hands of experienced players.

Why is spirit way so popular? Most HA players prefer brainless buttonsmashing builds.

The only limit to versatility is a players own perception of what works, and a players own ability to make something work.

You obviously dont have either.

Ozlae · Dec 01, 2007, 02:31 AM // 02:31

w00t, lots of flaming posts. IMO balanced is gimmick build like everything else but relying more on personal skill of the players instead of (over)powered skills. I see most hardcore PvP'ers moving to GvG because its suiting them more: i.e. rewarding personal skill instead of the skill itself.

I have run almost everything there is to run. Either because I love the build or because I want to know the weakness of the build. Anyone saying they are proud on not ruining some build fail. Read Sirlin before you flame me.

So, IMO, HA'ers either quit because the game became boring or moved to GvG.