Curse

Kyp Jade · Oct 09, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Where have all the fun matches gone. What happened to the players that were willing to take bigger risks in thier builds for better rewards. What happened to things like

Dual warrior pressure builds
Shut Down Builds
Rangers with bows (wtf, who thougth rangers could use bows)
HA in general

I'd point out the power creep in skills. Not only offensive skills, but defensive skills like DA which largely prevents phyiscal pressure builds from making a return. But even the general increase in the power of skills does nothing to blunt the argument that fewer skilled players play the format. The only thing left are the farmers, who have no interest in doing anything other than playing something tried and true.

elektra_lucia · Oct 09, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

What happened to korean style ventless too. I join a vent server and all the time they're talking about how much sex they get, drink they've drunk, or drugs they're going to have. I don't hear spikes being called xD.

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Rangers with bows (wtf, who thougth rangers could use bows)

HAHA. xD.

I keep wanting to improve all the time. I still don't feel fluent in weapon changing every cast though I'm spending a lot of thought into doing so. I think that's what makes HA fun for me, the improving but without this I might find it boring.

I admire the people who can mash 12345678 and not get bored.

FFW · Oct 09, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

If I get Flamed at by some nab and my respons get cencurised then my first post can be removed too. Guildwarsguru, propaganda machine of anet. If U cant post another oppinion on a forum, what is the point of a forum then?

Barbie goes guru · Oct 09, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFW

I didnt wanna say I myself are a great player because im not

your post highlights the accuracy of this statement.

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Then there is Legoway which is very overpowered but it requires some communication

'I'm using DA' '3,2,1 spike'

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I guess the reason there is almost no diversity is just because people lack the skill to play anything else than these ultra defensive pressure builds

the most defensive build you discussed was legoway?

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Other problem is that people call ranger spike lame for example.

why is this a problem? you gave no reasons to suggest that being called lame is why ha is poor.

Sage advice from this poster.

Nebuchadnezzer · Oct 09, 2007, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Although HA has seen better days and I think anyone with half a brain can agree on that, the average skill level of your run of the mill HA player has been usually.. rather low. Most HA players do not create their own builds, and have not for a very very long time. HA metas are created every so often and 95% of the HA population usually just played whatever the meta was.

Not to say they didnt mod the builds a little, but throwing in skill x y and z to deal with a b and c in a build template does not mean you created a build.

All in all I'd say HA has been very dead for a very long time. There are many different reasons people have come up with. I do not think there is a certain one just a culmination of the cesspool that HA has been for years.

Div · Oct 09, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

The reason why HA is so full of trash builds is because that's pretty much all you can run with a PUG. I don't care if it's unranked, r3+, or even r9+, if it's a PUG, the coordination is going to suck. Sure it's depressing to see "r10+ lf thumpers for sway" but that just shows how bad some players are despite their rank. The low ranked would have an even less chance winning with balanced.

The only groups that'll manage to succeed without running a trash build are friends list groups (with at most 1-2 pugs) or guild groups that have worked together before. This is why GvG has always been a higher form of PvP than HA, not only because it involves more strategy, but it involves better teams with more coordination and practice together.

Alex the Great · Oct 09, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

This is why GvG has always been a higher form of PvP than HA, not only because it involves more strategy, but it involves better teams with more coordination and practice together.

and gvg is more fun, but there are no easy rewards like in HA so no noobs wanna go do GvG, they all want crystilines and stygans from HA.

elektra_lucia · Oct 09, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14

There is actually tonnes of bad GVG teams, just they don't get mentioned.

swift88 · Oct 09, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

answer is simple.. people are lazy to come up with own build but just run something that they can mash 1-8 to get fame.

Div · Oct 09, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

There is actually tonnes of bad GVG teams, just they don't get mentioned.

Sure there are, but your average GvG team will be much more coordinated than your average HA team (excluding heroways and randomways from both categories). I'd venture to say almost half the GvG teams will be at least semi-coordinated and have played with each other and less than 10% of HA teams are made from a friends list.

elektra_lucia · Oct 10, 2007, 12:49 AM // 00:49

In gvg you generally play people of a similar ranking, so the 'average' when viewed by one person or team is not a true average.

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I'd venture

That's all very well and good but it's just that, A venture. You aren't certain at all, and you can't really be. Besides, I think I read in another thread that you don't even play much any more. Also, one man's meat is another man's poison. Point being, rank500 teams may not seem organised to some, but may to other people. There is tonnes and tonnes of guilds with a lack of coordination.

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This is why GvG has always been a higher form of PvP than HA, not only because it involves more strategy, but it involves better teams with more coordination and practice together.

Your main point here is the lack of coordination.

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I'd venture to say almost half the GvG teams will be at least semi-coordinated and have played with each other and less than 10% of HA teams are made from a friends list.

Here you're talking apples and oranges. Either you want to talk about coordination, or you want to talk about how the groups are formed. You can get pugs which are as coordinated as a rank two thousand guild. As for the friend-list comment, hmm. It's a moot point. Sure people may not play with a full friend list often compared to GVG but isn't that pretty damn obvious, as unless you guest - you're going to be in the same guild?

That's not to say they're coordinated just because they're in the same guild though. I really don't understand why you made that comment at all... Help?

I've seen alright HA teams (but nothing great) reach top 100 with ease. There are thousands of guilds. I've also seen top GVG guilds play lame builds in HA and fail, play decent builds in HA and fail... I don't think that the type of person who goes to GVG is much different to the type of person who goes to HA. Some of the true 'newbs' don't even have HA unlocked.

Div · Oct 10, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

I've seen alright HA teams (but nothing great) reach top 100 with ease. There are thousands of guilds. I've also seen top GVG guilds play lame builds in HA and fail, play decent builds in HA and fail... I don't think that the type of person who goes to GVG is much different to the type of person who goes to HA. Some of the true 'newbs' don't even have HA unlocked.

Examples? With very few exceptions, HA teams don't reach the top 100 with ease (it's usually done through running retarded gimmicks and farming the ladder, and they wouldn't stand a chance in a real AT match--notice how all the "top HA guilds" on the ladder never played in a monthly?). Top GvG guilds that play in HA are for the most part almost always successful, as most of those players are amongst the best that came from HA and went to GvG. I'd like to also see examples of those "top GvG guilds" that fail in HA.

My point isn't coordination through being in the same guild. What I mean is that those players have played with each other before, and have a relative idea of each person's strengths/weaknesses. By coordination I mean familiarity with each other, not necessarily being able to respond well to a given situation (that's more related to skill and experience).

elektra_lucia · Oct 10, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

WM failed at HA.
Cow didn't seem very good whenever I played them at HA.
ren0 don't seem that good at HA.
GANK got to top 100 easily I don't consider them that skilful at HA.

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it's usually done through running retarded gimmicks and farming the ladder

Hmm, even if that is so - moot point. Talking apples and oranges again...
We're talking about coordination, not builds... You can run bad or gimmicky builds, but be coordinated. Nice that you homed in on that paragraph too.

Fail.

*edit to reply to your edit*

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My point isn't coordination through being in the same guild. What I mean is that those players have played with each other before, and have a relative idea of each person's strengths/weaknesses. By coordination I mean familiarity with each other, not necessarily being able to respond well to a given situation (that's more related to skill and experience).

If they are in the same guild, it is likely that they have played with each other before. Yes. As to GVG you need to use guild members or guest. Where as with HA, you can use a complete random. Though, some guilds will recruit randoms; however, this is very very obvious as there's a button in HA to add people. There is not for GVG; therefore, it was logical for me to think you would be talking about coordination in a particular situation. If I was to use your logic with coordination being about strengths and weaknesses. Then I think I will have to play with PVE'ers to win. I find PVE newbies the best especially, the ones who frenzy and heal sig while having mending on. This is good coordination because I know they're going to do it. I know their weakness! But their strength, they will use that bow vs the zaishen without setting off the timer like no other!

If you manipulate the English language to suit your needs then yes, I admit it now - you've won any debate we will ever have, or have had here =).

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Semi-coordinated and have played with each other

If coordination is about playing with each other, then how come you mention playing with each other, after coordination?
It would be like saying that door is a red door red door.
Which is why I think

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what I mean

What you meant and what you said were different, or perhaps you were shown to be wrong and are now making a different point? ^_^.

Zahr Dalsk · Oct 10, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Why do we run gimmick builds?

Oh, I don't know... maybe we want to reach a displayable rank so that we can get into groups and run other stuff but such groups won't take unranked?

Gimmick builds will be around for as long as the Hero title track is (and probably longer since they are so effective).

People may claim that since they reached high hero title anyone can... but remember that some of us are having a hard time competing for places with all the r10 people around.

People also forget about that 'wonderful' thing called ebayed high fame accounts.

Lykan · Oct 10, 2007, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

People also forget about that 'wonderful' thing called ebayed high fame accounts.

Yea everyone over r9 ebayed dont you know that. god this gets old...
jealousy is a bad thing..

skarkees · Oct 10, 2007, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Lol also thought of:

Maybe people dont like GVG and play HA because they like short matches (mostly 5 mins). Not every player likes the whole strategy of GVG etc.

You guys (me to) like GVG and the tactic and stratgie of it but we also gotta let the other people in peace who dont like GVG but just fast matches for fame.

Its a personal choice. Its impossible to say to a HA team: Hey you guys are noobs go play GVG and yo will see who is better.

That is unfair imo because HA and GVG is way different in builds and tactics.

red orc · Oct 10, 2007, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Where have all the fun matches gone. What happened to the players that were willing to take bigger risks in thier builds for better rewards.
.

Nothing happend, they never existed. It is all in your head.
I cannot belive that ppl are burly 20 years old and remember the "good old days" like they were 80.

In the old days it was: IWAY and RSPIKE and BSPIKE and VIMWAY and then some Thumpers and SF and dual smith and then spiritway and Steady...

And this is just from the time I started palying HA. There were other FOTM going way back to the start...

Kyp Jade · Oct 10, 2007, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

Nothing happend, they never existed. It is all in your head.
I cannot belive that ppl are burly 20 years old and remember the "good old days" like they were 80.

In the old days it was: IWAY and RSPIKE and BSPIKE and VIMWAY and then some Thumpers and SF and dual smith and then spiritway and Steady...

And this is just from the time I started palying HA. There were other FOTM going way back to the start...

There was always fotm teams, but back then there were teams also willing to take risks and play somethign different. Where did they go?

Zahr Dalsk · Oct 10, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

Yea everyone over r9 ebayed dont you know that. god this gets old...
jealousy is a bad thing..

I am hardly accusing every over r9 of being ebayed.

I am saying that just as someone in Obsidian Armor _may_ have ebayed (although I think most of them have not done so and got theirs legitimately) someone with a high rank _may_ have ebayed and so it is not a good indicator of actual skill... there are people with really high ranks who are really good and there are people with really high ranks who are really bad. There are people with low ranks who are really bad and there are people with low ranks who are really good.

I just wish that there was some accurate indicator of skill or no rank title at all because everyone assumes unranked = never played game. But I have played over 1000 hours (1100 last I checked) which is often the same as some people who have been in since release. I've held the Hall of Heroes once. I've played the game a lot. I think I do pretty well so far. I did not wander into Heroes Ascent with a level 1 character fresh from pre-searing so why does everyone assume that I have just because I still am 91 fame away from r3?

Spiritway (and Randomway, but that fails most of the time) is pretty much the only place I can join, all other build types want high-ranked players, and by refusing lower-ranked players (and calling us noobs, which is incredibly ignorant since the correct term is newbie anyways, noob refers to a whole other thing) they are essentially saying to us, "Please run a gimmick build until you get a high rank, then we'll take you." So they should not complain that we have done what they have caused us to do.

Lorekeeper · Oct 10, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

first i just wanted to say i dont understand why there are posts whining about rank in this thread. Surely the locked thread involving that topic is enough indication of how pointless those discussions tend to be.

on topic.

unfortunately its was never easy to run a build of the nature you wish to see. A friend of mine once described my builds as builds of finesse. I used to run all sorts of great builds, sometimes with rangers using bows, sometimes with an odd mixture of hexes, sometimes with condition overload, sometimes even with famine.

and to be honest i have given up. Purely because the playerbase does not provide the resources for me to run these builds anymore. I would say that the number of truly original build innovators is directly proportional to the amount of truly good players in HA. And in all honesty, the number of truly good players in HA is pitiful.

There really isnt any point for anyone with the ability to come up with new and exciting and dangerous new builds to do so, the market for them is so small. Why put so much effort into providing a service for such a tiny audience? Why put the effort into providing a service to an audience who in all honesty cannot guarantee to make full use of that service as it was intended?

Basically the amount of build innovators of the builds you speak of is indirectly proportional to the amount of gimmick players in HA. And there are quite ALOT of those.

Its one of the reasons why i have given up running anything but the simplest of balanced builds, when i do HA i dont form teams anymore, all i do is monk for people who are desperate for a good monk.

you see, its not designing builds thats hard, thats easy. Anyone good at analysing the meta, who understand the skills in the game, and is experienced in making successful builds can do so.

the difficult task is finding the players who are not only WILLING to play something that requires a bit more thought and skill, but players who are ABLE to play something like that.

One big reason why builds like lego way, spiritway, iway, bloodspike, paraway etc etc became such successful gimmicks is because you could afford to have 2-3 horrible players in the team without it having a detrimental effect on your success. In legoway, its not difficult to play the 2 paragons. In spiritway, the thumpers can get away with training monks and spirit spamming was never a intellectually demanding task. In iway, the warriors trained monks. In paraway the paragons T-space the called targets and spam their shouts/echoes/chants on recharge.

in a build of finesse, every player must perform to an extremely high standard. In builds i design, every player has an extremely important task, if one aspect of the build fails to perform to its intended purpose, the whole build collapses.

these types of builds never become gimmick.

and there really arent that many players left who are good enough to play them.

thats why theyve disappeared.