Curse

Ensign · Dec 03, 2007, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

I absolutely think that kaolai and heal party monks totally screw over the degen, you could clearly see that in your game against [sup].

Kaolai is barely more than a top off heal, it's not any sort of serious party healing. Healer's Boon Monks don't do anything that LoD didn't do before. On that front all I saw from the [sup] match is that we did an *abysmal* job of disrupting the Heal Party. Hey, if you don't disrupt a serious source of party healing when you're playing degen you lose - no surprise there whatsoever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

you now rely on a mesmer totally obliterating their monks, and cooperating with your ranger to take care of their midline.

This is different in a build with an Air Elementalist than in a build with another character in that slot because...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

I could've missed it, but you say your mesmer had powerleak then?

'Assortment of interrupts'. Because Inspiration takes Humsig instead of Diversion, Signet of Distraction tends to be a better skill than Power Leak; however if you really want the Power Leak there's no reason you can't take it. It's not like its value fluctuates heavily with Domination spec.

Kaon · Dec 03, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Any type of pressure build is going to take some time to have effect, whether it be conditions or physical pressure. If you watch the game, most of the engagements didn't last more than 1-2 minutes at the max, and that wasn't enough for their backline to feel the pressure. On the surface it seems like their pots and HP were able to keep bars up, but I'd argue that it wouldn't be able to be sustained for long. If we hadn't blown up so quickly, the combination of HB strips and interrupts would be able to disable and heavily pressure and crack the opposing monks.

What you are saying right now is: "If the enemy didn't kill us first, we would've killed them." But isn't that the point of guild wars? To kill your enemy before they kill you? Of course you won't be able to pressure the opponent longer if you drop some defence.

And that's going to be the entire opponent playstyle, make the matchups as short as possible. We've faced the condition build a few times and we pushed hard killing a bit, then retreated and recovered, and pushed hard again, exactly like [sup] did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Kaolai is barely more than a top off heal, it's not any sort of serious party healing. Healer's Boon Monks don't do anything that LoD didn't do before.

I do agree that Kaolai isn't all that great, but still more than enough, coupled with WoH to keep the party up long enough to score some kills. Also the main difference between kaolai/hp and lod was that Lod only healed up people till 80%, so the entire opponent party was never higher than that and could easily be spiked and pressured down by the warriors. Next to that, HP has a far bigger healing potential than LoD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

This is different in a build with an Air Elementalist than in a build with another character in that slot because...

Because you ran a totally different mesmer, and you lack more single target focused damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

'Assortment of interrupts'. Because Inspiration takes Humsig instead of Diversion, Signet of Distraction tends to be a better skill than Power Leak; however if you really want the Power Leak there's no reason you can't take it. It's not like its value fluctuates heavily with Domination spec.

Yes, but powerleak and diversion are many times more powerful than humsig and/or signet of distraction, they allow for instant pressure. Also Eburn/Esurge allows for more e-denial and focused damage than tainted. All in all i'd consider them totally different characters.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Dec 03, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

What you are saying right now is: "If the enemy didn't kill us first, we would've killed them." But isn't that the point of guild wars? To kill your enemy before they kill you? Of course you won't be able to pressure the opponent longer if you drop some defence.

This of course true, but it says nothing about why they died. (I havent watched the match myself but I do know that sup basically exclusively kills through knocking down both monks and spiking, maybe they expected their monks to be able to catch the spikes and this wasn't the case for instance.)

Quote:

I do agree that Kaolai isn't all that great, but still more than enough, coupled with WoH to keep the party up long enough to score some kills. Also the main difference between kaolai/hp and lod was that Lod only healed up people till 80%, so the entire opponent party was never higher than that and could easily be spiked and pressured down by the warriors. Next to that, HP has a far bigger healing potential than LoD.

This is simply not true, LoD doesn't heal up to 80%, it heals up from <80%, meaning it could theoretically fully heal someone that's at 79% health, the difference still applies of course, but it's not quite like how you stated it

Quote:

Yes, but powerleak and diversion are many times more powerful than humsig and/or signet of distraction, they allow for instant pressure. Also Eburn/Esurge allows for more e-denial and focused damage than tainted. All in all i'd consider them totally different characters.

I don't neccesarily agree that they're more powerful (though definately more versatile) but they take time to kick in, time that, from what I'm hearing, they didn't have because they died too quickly.

I know you like to start drama Kaon but suggesting Ensign has no knowledge about Guild Wars just makes you look like an idiot

Kaon · Dec 03, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

This is simply not true, LoD doesn't heal up to 80%, it heals up from <80%, meaning it could theoretically fully heal someone that's at 79% health, the difference still applies of course, but it's not quite like how you stated it

But with so much degen in practise you end up with an entire opponent party at 80% or lower.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

I don't neccesarily agree that they're more powerful (though definately more versatile) but they take time to kick in, time that, from what I'm hearing, they didn't have because they died too quickly.

It really doesnt take any time, 1 interrupt with pleak already hurts you. And its recharged like 12 seconds (don't know it exactly, correct me if im wrong) later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mitch

I know you like to start drama Kaon but suggesting Ensign has no knowledge about Guild Wars just makes you look like an idiot

Of course, it was just to add a little drama to the post and make all the noobs freak out

. And his initial statement did reveal a lot lack of knowledge, as I said.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Dec 03, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

But with so much degen in practise you end up with an entire opponent party at 80% or lower.

The way you say it makes it look like no one is ever >80% health vs condi pressure, which wasn't the case, I dont think the 80% clause of LoD was the reason condi pressure was so effective pre-lod nerf, it was more the fact that it was fairly easy to shut down and people didn't really pack any other party healing (oh and the lack of a superpowered WoH would help

)

Quote:

It really doesnt take any time, 1 interrupt with pleak already hurts you. And its recharged like 12 seconds (don't know it exactly, correct me if im wrong) later.

I was talking about the tainted/signet mesmer, it's effective but the effects aren't as direct and instant as those of a normal domination mesmer.

Kaon · Dec 03, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The way you say it makes it look like no one is ever >80% health vs condi pressure, which wasn't the case, I dont think the 80% clause of LoD was the reason condi pressure was so effective pre-lod nerf, it was more the fact that it was fairly easy to shut down and people didn't really pack any other party healing (oh and the lack of a superpowered WoH would help

)

I said that, noob!

Ensign · Dec 03, 2007, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Also the main difference between kaolai/hp and lod was that Lod only healed up people till 80%

The main difference between Healer's Boon + Heal Party and Light of Deliverance is that the latter can be shut down with Signet of Humility while the former cannot. The 80% part of Light of Deliverance wasn't the critical failure of Light of Deliverance against degen, at all. Heal Party is *more* vulnerable to most other forms of disruption, from energy pressure to interrupts and even enchantment removal due to the dependence on Healer's Boon; it is simply impervious to the easiest method of shutdown, Humsig. The build still had a single point of failure, the Heal Party; we simply did a poor job of shutting it down. If you didn't disable Light of Deliverance at all when playing condition pressure a couple months ago, the exact same thing would have happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Because you ran a totally different mesmer, and you lack more single target focused damage.

What is the difference between what a Domination Mesmer and a Ranger do in a build with an Air Elementalist that is so much different from what a Domination Mesmer and a Ranger do in a build with a Paragon in that slot, or a Water Elementalist, or any other character you might put there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Yes, but powerleak and diversion are many times more powerful than humsig and/or signet of distraction, they allow for instant pressure.

Saying that Diversion allows for instant pressure but Humsig does not is downright laughable. Which one is more powerful depends almost entirely upon what it is you want to disable with the skill. If you're looking to disable RC, Blinding Surge, or the old LoD, Signet of Humility outperforms Diversion by leaps and bounds. Diversion is simply a more flexible tool, which is as valuable as you need it to be flexible.

If you feel that Power Leak is a stronger skill than Signet of Distraction on an Inspiration-heavy bar then go right ahead and run it; again, the strength of Power Leak varies only slightly with attribute spec. Our evaluation is that when you have Mantra of Inscriptions and a couple Signets already on your bar, Signet of Distraction is a better skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Also Eburn/Esurge allows for more e-denial and focused damage than tainted. All in all i'd consider them totally different characters.

As I said two posts ago, the really substantial difference between an Inspiration / Tainted Mesmer and a Domination Mesmer is the time the Tainted Mesmer spends maintaining the Tainted, which cuts into time spent using shutdown skills - a typical Domination Mesmer on the other hand has an elite that he doesn't use very often, or one that's one of the least important skills on his bar, so he has much more time to dedicate to using his other skills. That's the big difference, shutdown-wise, between the Domination and Inspiration specced Mesmers: time.

Yue · Dec 03, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

What is the difference between what a Domination Mesmer and a Ranger do in a build with an Air Elementalist that is so much different from what a Domination Mesmer and a Ranger do in a build with a Paragon in that slot, or a Water Elementalist, or any other character you might put there?

Paragon=more damage+shutdown
ele=gets owned+better spike

twicky_kid · Dec 04, 2007, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I really don't think there's an issue with vod; I think people just want vod to be exactly like the first 18 minutes, which would be absolutely terrible. Vod has always been an important part of the game that every team should take into account and when teams complain about it I'm always confused as to why.

Sorry but it has not ALWAYS been an important part of the game. VoD was added out of necessity. GW did not start with VoD as a part of the game.

Pre-VoD teams would take hyper defensive builds and turtle in their base for hours. After a few 2-3 hour matches GvG didn't seem very fun anymore. There were many teams that used builds specifically to just survive and hope you rage quit. VoD was added to stop the grievers but ended up as a winning strategy. VoD has actually taken a lot of skill out of the game.

IMO VoD should break stale mates but the game shouldn't be in a position to soley rely on VoD as a winning strategy. People complained about power creep but I really didn't mind the 10 minute matches. Now just about everything's been nerfed, hp totals are higher, and defensive webs + AoE at VoD rule GvG.

JR · Dec 04, 2007, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Sorry but it has not ALWAYS been an important part of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

VoD was added out of necessity.

So it wasn't important but it was added out of necessity?

Hmmm.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Dec 04, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

I assume he meant that people didn't plan or play for VoD in the past, and that VoD was added because games had to end some time.

Lord Sojar · Dec 04, 2007, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'm curious to know why you consider the only build you've ever accomplished anything with to be 'such a shit build'.

I don't understand how a BSurge/Ward bitch or Paragon instead of a trapper, or whatever other single character you'd want to put there, is the difference between the established metagame build and 'one dimensional brainless bullcrap'.

LOL. HAHA, I seriously loved this comment. /Ensignwins

Grats EW, well played. [Rawr] was great for coming up with this and getting it endorsed.

twicky_kid · Dec 04, 2007, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

I assume he meant that people didn't plan or play for VoD in the past, and that VoD was added because games had to end some time.

Exactly.

Before (prophecies) the strategy was split and ganks to reduce NPCs in case the battle went to VoD. This also made offensive and defensive splits the overall factor of the winner. You still had to plan for VoD but it wasn't the overall factor of who won the game matches usually ended before VoD. Most matches back then lasted 10-15 minutes and VoD at 30 minutes.

After factions was released Rit Spirit spammers could set up a defensive web half way across the map and never get touched. During VoD you'd have the advantage as all your NPCs are affected by spirits. This is where the VoD strategy we have today has evolved from. Instead of split ganks to reduce NPCs to have the advantage at VoD you just set up a defensive web and stale till VoD. Then, nuke the NPCs at VoD and its gg.

Maintained enchantments and ether renewal were the biggest problem pre-VoD with the pure defensive teams. Those problems have been fixed but we are still left with a system that takes most of the really good strategy out of GvG.

Anyways, good matches but expect more of the same. Most of the Tournaments and monthly ATs are won with VoD nukes.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 04, 2007, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

After factions was released Rit Spirit spammers could set up a defensive web half way across the map and never get touched. During VoD you'd have the advantage as all your NPCs are affected by spirits. This is where the VoD strategy we have today has evolved from. Instead of split ganks to reduce NPCs to have the advantage at VoD you just set up a defensive web and stale till VoD. Then, nuke the NPCs at VoD and its gg.

Prophecies had all the tools necessary to stall to VoD and AoE nuke the NPCs. A lot of the power in the lauded Dual Surge meta build of Prophecies was in its ability to blow up balled NPCs at VoD.

Indeed, with the longer VoD timer and sturdier boat, stalling was the norm, especially for 8v8 builds. If you got pushed back or couldn't deal with the split, you would just turtle in your nigh-untouchable lord room for 15 minutes until VoD hit and you had a shot. Every match, even against relatively weak teams, had this boring 10 minute period where you fruitlessly tried to break their turtle and actually kill the lord pre-VoD.

If any 8v8 teams weren't using stall tactics in the Prophecies days, it has more to do with them not understanding Guild Wars than any change in the skill balances. Not that I can fault them for it. No one understood Guild Wars back then.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 04, 2007, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Sorry but it has not ALWAYS been an important part of the game. VoD was added out of necessity. GW did not start with VoD as a part of the game.

Damn, I loved those 3-hour games back in beta.

Blame the Monks · Dec 04, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Damn, I loved those 3-hour games back in beta.

Ah, they were great. It was a contest to see who err7ed or had to go first. My longest was only 85 minutes tho, against FnlD. I remember they turtled for 81 minutes but we just couldn't break their NPC cluster on that damn boat.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 04, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Posts deleted. If you want to argue about successful builds and strategies that's fine, but keep the Ensign flaming/fanboyism to IRC

wuzzman · Dec 05, 2007, 01:18 AM // 01:18

in factions, there were way more tools for effective splitting that ganking became a actual threat and just a nuisance you turtle in your base till the game is over if it bothers you that match.