Curse

ockhams · Sep 18, 2007, 02:39 AM // 02:39

"proposements" nice word...

damage nerf? maybe on a few individual dervish skills, hell i wouldn't mind if they nerfed base dmg on derv. but paragon is fine as far as damage, imo.

SoD is fine, very visable, removable enchantment that lasts 7 seconds for 10 energy and an elite skill slot. agree with other posts that some of the other more passive and non-elite skills such as aegis could use a little reworking again, but not SoD.

by "shouts and chants become 2%...24% lower" you mean energy cost? what about the adrenaline ones? instead of that, maybe you could scale the energy gain based on the energy cost. that would be more reliably balanced rather than gaining 6-7 energy for a 4 adrenaline shout (especially with aggressive refrain).

as far as dervish forms, i agree with the melandru proposal which would make melandru function like dwayna. remove 1-2 condition when you use a skill. other than that, i haven't really seen a problem with the other forms.

mirror of disenchantment... novel idea but no way. bad answer for the shout/chant issue. maybe have a limit on the number of non-removable skills of the same type just overall and in general. like weapon spells. if it can't be removed (or even interrupted) there should be some sort of cap to prevent abuse.

agree, the necro hexes specifically for countering shouts/chants could use a tweak but making them more active is not the answer, imo. they are already limited enough applying ONLY to shouts/chants. they should apply to a more broad situation to make them more attractive AND have an additional effect on shouts/chants.

and as far your divine boon "proposements"... you seem to have broken your rule. how would you make it "better fixed"?

DutchSmurf · Sep 18, 2007, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Bring Boon/Prots out of extinction, seeing as how there is more enchant removal and more edenial, seems meaningless to keep them locked up.

More enchant removal and more edenial? You mean except for the 3 spikeskills EBurn, ESurge and Shatter Enchantment? Boonprot is safely nerfed to dead, lets keep it there. Last thing we need is more defense.

Bankai · Sep 18, 2007, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Power leak and Rending touch would come to mind actually.

Vanquisher · Sep 18, 2007, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

More enchant removal and more edenial? You mean except for the 3 spikeskills EBurn, ESurge and Shatter Enchantment? Boonprot is safely nerfed to dead, lets keep it there. Last thing we need is more defense.

You clearly have very little knowledge of the game at that stage.

twicky_kid · Sep 18, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

You clearly have very little knowledge of the game at that stage.

So let me explain it to ya. Vanq this is not directed towards you. I know you know.

Boon prots are completely self reliant. It could self heal, good vs pressure, good vs spike without infuse, and very resilant. Boon Prot is what made splits and map control possible.

The meta's current monks completely rely on each other. 4/4 or 5/3 splits are no longer possible because you don't have a self reliant monk. Gank teams just hit and run instead of being able to push through the base because you have a healer behind you.

Boon Prots would bring back a huge number of strategies that have been long forgotten. Even the suggested to buff to B light would be great. Anything to get people away from SoD.

Vanquisher · Sep 18, 2007, 02:10 PM // 14:10

I wouldn't say Boon Prots were all that effective vs. pressure. They relied on the E-Prod powered HP a lot, and with LoD that just isn't the case now.

Your Monk description of LoD and SoD is pretty good though. Neither have anywhere near the self sustainability Boon Prots had, which allowed for much stronger tactics to appear.

I Am Dag · Sep 18, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

I'd like to see Glyph of Lesser Energy scale like Signet of Illusions for the number of spells it effects; i.e. only effects the next 2 spells at 8 Energy Storage.

A block cap seems like a sensible idea. Layered passive defense needs to die, or at least be less effective.

TheZens · Sep 18, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Current leadership

"You gain 1 Energy for each ally affected by one of your Shouts or Chants (maximum 1 Energy for every 2 ranks)."

New Leadership

"You gain 1 Energy for each ally affected by one of your Paragon Shouts or Chants (maximum 1 Energy for every 3 ranks)."

People see watch yourself and shields up as generally balanced on a warrior and now the effect is the same on the paragon as they gain no leadership bonus from non paragon shouts/chants. Making them need 12 leadership would be nice as well as possibly stopping chants and shouts stack as much as they currently do (say 3 max of each type) much like its impossible to stack a rits weapon spells maybe capping shouts.

Current Aggresive Refrain 25E 2C 20R

For 5...21 seconds, you attack 25% faster. This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on you.

New Aggresive Refrain 5E 1C 10R

For 1...8 seconds, you attack 25% faster and have -10 Armor. This Echo is reapplied for 1...4 seconds every time a Chant or Shout ends on you.

The idea really is to make Aggressive the paragon version of frenzy it needs to not be a put up and forget it type of skill.

twicky_kid · Sep 18, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

I wouldn't say Boon Prots were all that effective vs. pressure. They relied on the E-Prod powered HP a lot, and with LoD that just isn't the case now.

Your Monk description of LoD and SoD is pretty good though. Neither have anywhere near the self sustainability Boon Prots had, which allowed for much stronger tactics to appear.

LoD easily replaced HP. An LoD runner with 2 boon prots on a split build would be pretty good though.

I have been playing around with the old boon prot and found that dismiss condition will single handily replace GoH. Energy is still somewhat a problem because of the inspiration nerf. I think a motivation paragon could be used to mitigate pressure while providing a heavy offense.

Agressive Refrain needs to lose its "reapply" clause. Reduce the recharge and casting. There is no absolutely no reason any physical dmg dealer needs to have a permanent IAS. Especially on paragons that are ranged attacks that are not affected by most of the physical dmg counters.

Burton2000 · Sep 18, 2007, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Well there was a very short spell when people used mo/p with scribes insight to power boon. However that meant having 3 skills to power boon instead of just 1.

twicky_kid · Sep 18, 2007, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

Well there was a very short spell when people used mo/p with scribes insight to power boon. However that meant having 3 skills to power boon instead of just 1.

It does work but has much more problems than the original boon prot. Long recharge on scribes so if it gets stripped you are going to feel it. Sigs have long casting times (1+ seconds is long for a monk). Under heavy pressure you'll have to spam spells to heal and risk getting interrupted using your sigs to bring your energy back up.

wuzzman · Sep 18, 2007, 06:38 PM // 18:38

lol the meta has been nerfed into a corner. Even if you do nerf glph and para's the meta will just switch to real heavy warrior pressure, no Mo/a monk is going to heal a team for more then 6 minutes against 3 Rao thumpers unless the thumpers are retarded and train the monks the whole match. The game will just swing back in forth between spike and heavy pressure leaving no one happy. GG this is the game ya'll wanted.

Riotgear · Sep 18, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheZens

New Aggresive Refrain 5E 1C 10R

For 1...8 seconds, you attack 25% faster and have -10 Armor. This Echo is reapplied for 1...4 seconds every time a Chant or Shout ends on you.

The idea really is to make Aggressive the paragon version of frenzy it needs to not be a put up and forget it type of skill.

Not a bad idea, but the Echo mechanic has been kind of clunky from the start, the auto-reapply ones are exceptionally bad though. I don't think reapplies are a good idea regardless of how they're done, because it means you wind up having to micromanage the timing of buffs just to get their END times to match up in order to keep them going, and on ones that end conditionally, potentially being forced to cast or use up a buff at times that may be completely inopportune just to keep another buff alive.

This is kind of visible in PvE for example where Aggressive Refrain can be inconveniently dropped if Anthem of Flame was used near the end of a fight and consequently the cooldown has to be waited out to recast, and then the duration has to be waited out, which is longer than the AR buff lasts. Even when the drawback actually occurs, keeping it under control is extremely awkward.

Just lose the auto-reapply, change the stats to something along the lines of Heart of Fury.

Vanquisher · Sep 19, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

LoD easily replaced HP. An LoD runner with 2 boon prots on a split build would be pretty good though.

I have been playing around with the old boon prot and found that dismiss condition will single handily replace GoH. Energy is still somewhat a problem because of the inspiration nerf. I think a motivation paragon could be used to mitigate pressure while providing a heavy offense.

Agressive Refrain needs to lose its "reapply" clause. Reduce the recharge and casting. There is no absolutely no reason any physical dmg dealer needs to have a permanent IAS. Especially on paragons that are ranged attacks that are not affected by most of the physical dmg counters.

Dismiss requires the target to be enchanted. If you are enchanting them yourselves that is a minimum 14 for the Dismiss heal.

twicky_kid · Sep 19, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Dismiss requires the target to be enchanted. If you are enchanting them yourselves that is a minimum 14 for the Dismiss heal.

It will only be able to fit into a few niche builds without GoH otherwise I wouldn't take it off the bar. The main difference is its a large self heal.

Vanquisher · Sep 19, 2007, 07:50 PM // 19:50

RoF under Boon is fine for a self heal, tbh. You've also still go the ever so important Prot Spirit / Spirit Bond allowance, but the lack of Aegis is bound to be a problem seeing as how reliant bad Monks have become on it.

Symbol · Sep 20, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Ok to sum up:

1) Some sort of nerf for melandru...probably along the lines of a condition reduction % rather than a total immunity--maybe in conjunction with a slightly better uptime and/or lower energy cost to soften the blow.

2) Aggressive refrain: -20 AL while attacking or flat -10 AL

3) Stacking cap for block %, say 50%?

4) Deadly paradox: this skill needs to die, it doesn't matter how. It prevents virtually all deadly arts/shadow arts utility from being balanced properly.

I dunno, it doesn't seem like the game is hugely broken to me. The required changes are pretty minor in the overall scheme of things. Of course that begs the question of why it hasn't been done already...

Vanquisher · Sep 20, 2007, 06:38 AM // 06:38

There are certain skills that completely break the other balance in the game, just as Deadly Paradox, in such ways. Other notable examples are Mantra of Recovery, Glyph of Lesser Energy, and maybe to an extent Glyph of Renewal. The only difference is that Glyph of Renewal is single cast. Glyph Lesser is retarded because it's nonelite and 2 spells, whatever attribute they may be, and requires no spec. Oath Shot could also be placed in the "breaker" category, but Rangers need high expertise and do not get the same benefits casters can get out of such things. Oh, and it requires the Ranger to actually hit.

I don't get why ArenaNet like to buff the breaking skills they have, to the point at which the mechanics for balance can be manipulated in such a great way

Servant of Kali · Sep 20, 2007, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

I don't get why ArenaNet like to buff the breaking skills they have

Because then everyone will use these skills. And the metagame is forced to change, rather than encouraged to change. Then they create an appearance of dynamic gameplay.

That's the easy way. The difficult way is to actually do a proper skill balancing. Which no one wants to bother with because:
1) it takes time, and all employees prefer daydreaming instead
2) it would annoy PvErs, not because it would hurt them but because they are traditional. Change is bad.

Vanquisher · Sep 20, 2007, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Imbalanced gameplay is not good gameplay.