Curse

Zuranthium · Sep 13, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Oy, Melandru's does not need to be changed. Wearying Strike does.

~Z

Bankai · Sep 13, 2007, 02:03 PM // 14:03

No, Melandru's needs to be changed as well. Melandru's basically forces people to take another layer of defense next to a blindbot (if you're taking one), and preferrably two layers.

wuzzman · Sep 13, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

A Mele derv is simply a direct counter to the "WTF GOTTCHA!!" power of the very spammable blinding surge. They still get "wft own" by ward against melee, aegis, sod, guardian, DA, pick your defense skill. The only real reason why people use mele derv over lysaa or grenth(besides the fact the grenth is died), is because of wearying strike. Nerfing mele just buffs Vodway. If players can coordinate interupts on 1 sec wards and aegis chains from 3 different casters, and DA, then obviously they can interupt the 2 sec cast of avatar of mele. Another problem with the pvp community, pick and choose what they wish to deal with. And then wonder how Vodway is perfectly supported in the meta.

Vanquisher · Sep 13, 2007, 02:54 PM // 14:54

It's not about nerfing one, it's about nerfing both.

Symbol · Sep 13, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Melandru is stupid because it makes the derv unspikable and immune to the most common and cheaply available form of shutdown (conditions).

Wearying strike is stupid because the conditional ensures that it's either unusable (if the weakness sticks) or retarded (if you can remove it before the next swing). It wants a rework, not a nerf. Dervishes desperately need a viable non-elite DW skill.

Bankai · Sep 13, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

A Mele derv is simply a direct counter to the "WTF GOTTCHA!!" power of the very spammable blinding surge. They still get "wft own" by ward against melee, aegis, sod, guardian, DA, pick your defense skill. The only real reason why people use mele derv over lysaa or grenth(besides the fact the grenth is died), is because of wearying strike. Nerfing mele just buffs Vodway. If players can coordinate interupts on 1 sec wards and aegis chains from 3 different casters, and DA, then obviously they can interupt the 2 sec cast of avatar of mele. Another problem with the pvp community, pick and choose what they wish to deal with. And then wonder how Vodway is perfectly supported in the meta.

Reading posts is awesome, isn't it?

I said Melandru's do get owned by all the extremely gay defensive stuff. But it's the only thing that owns them. So, if people want to make sure they don't get massacred by Melandru's, they have to run gay defensive stuff.

Also, interrupting avatar of melandru is kind of hard if they either run behind the backline, which they will usually do after getting interrupted once, or get other backup.

Riotgear · Sep 13, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

The only real reason why people use mele derv over lysaa or grenth(besides the fact the grenth is died), is because of wearying strike.

And because the DW immunity and +100HP makes them spikeproof, and the fact that it makes blind completely ineffective. Veil-bond teams make hexes largely ineffective as well.

Quote:

then obviously they can interupt the 2 sec cast of avatar of mele.

Aegis and wards are restricted by positioning and can both be p-leaked and p-drained. AoM does not fall into either category.

Zuranthium · Sep 13, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

No, Melandru's needs to be changed as well. Melandru's basically forces people to take another layer of defense next to a blindbot (if you're taking one), and preferrably two layers.

Good players would not stop taking Ward vs. Melee, dual Aegis, and SoD if Melandru could suddenly be affected by blindness. Those skills are simply really, really good. Too good, in the case of Ward and Aegis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

It's not about nerfing one, it's about nerfing both.

So you're basically just saying that you don't want to see the character in the game at all. What pushes Melandru over the top is the crazy spike power of Wearying. That needs to be addressed; the character shouldn't be killed altogether.

~Z

Turbobusa · Sep 13, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

just make the advantage it gives active, like grenth, lyssa and dwayna.
= condition removed ON SKILL USAGE. Passive defense is what makes it broken imo.

Vanquisher · Sep 13, 2007, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

So you're basically just saying that you don't want to see the character in the game at all. What pushes Melandru over the top is the crazy spike power of Wearying. That needs to be addressed; the character shouldn't be killed altogether.

Yes. Until they can find a way to suitably balance it so it doesn't ruin the game.

Bankai · Sep 13, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Good players would not stop taking Ward vs. Melee, dual Aegis, and SoD if Melandru could suddenly be affected by blindness. Those skills are simply really, really good. Too good, in the case of Ward and Aegis.

True. However, they wouldn't be forced to take all those layers. Plus, this would also mean that nerfing the gay defensive shit a little bit wouldn't make Melandru's extremely overpowered. Nerfing Melandru gets rid of the "High defense, High offense" and replaces it with "Medium defense, Medium offense". That is, ofcourse, only if Izzy also lowers the defensive capabilities.

Seamus Finn · Sep 13, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

A Mele derv is simply a direct counter to the "WTF GOTTCHA!!" power of the very spammable blinding surge. They still get "wft own" by ward against melee, aegis, sod, guardian, DA, pick your defense skill.

Dervs are noteably NOT as affected by all the block schemes as warriors simply because they do not run on adrenaline. So while both the war and derv may not be able to pressure through the blocks, the wars adren gain is retarded as well, making him not able to call spikes as often as the derv who comes fully loaded.

I think that nerfing offense could actually solve a lot. For instance, if a team couldn't devote so many slots to defense and still stomp people because skills like conjure were suddenly terrible, maybe they would drop some defense for offense?

wuzzman · Sep 13, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

players will take all those layers because they can. you have to PUNISH players for taking those layers before you change the meta...or get your build nerfed. Right now, your most likely going to get your build nerfed. Why you think mesmers were hit every time a skill balance was made...

Greedy Gus · Sep 13, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

players will take all those layers because they can.

No. In a properly balanced game (fix VoD, balance skills), players take only as much defense as they need to stay alive, because the opportunity cost is less offense.

It's just plain wrong to think that everyone is running shedloads of passive defense because those skills are awesome; it's because they need to avoid getting slaughtered by the overpowered offensive skills & heavy physical balanced builds, due to the introduction of the paragon as the 4th physical in many standard build archetypes. Pre-NF, ward melee & aegis were strong skills, but they were primarily functioning simply as a check against heavy physical builds (2W 2R, or 3W) in case they gained popularity in the meta. It's extremely easy to run a build with 2W, 1R, 1P, and as such that physical offense has to be accounted for. It's not so easy to run a 3 warrior build well, because they actually do have to give up on defensive/control options.

Zuranthium · Sep 13, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

It's just plain wrong to think that everyone is running shedloads of passive defense because those skills are awesome; it's because they need to avoid getting slaughtered by the overpowered offensive skills & heavy physical balanced builds

Wow, no. If GoLE and SoD had been in their current forms a year and a half ago, we would have constantly seen the majority of teams bringing all of Ward, Aegis, and SoD. In the past people DID get slaughtered back-and-forth in matches because the defensive networks weren't as strong. Eviscerate and Bull's Strike used to be even better than they are now and Gale was on a 3 second knockdown, remember. It's not like teams were gimped offensively.

Abilities on both sides of the fence need to be fixed.

~Z

Yue · Sep 13, 2007, 11:19 PM // 23:19

So Bull's strike triggering on fleeing foes is better than moving ones? o ok.

wuzzman · Sep 14, 2007, 12:36 AM // 00:36

people who can bring massive defense and still manage to kill something, would choose to bring massive defense regardless of what the other team is running. Only when the other team PUNISHES that massive defense will things change.

twicky_kid · Sep 14, 2007, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Wow, no. If GoLE and SoD had been in their current forms a year and a half ago, we would have constantly seen the majority of teams bringing all of Ward, Aegis, and SoD. In the past people DID get slaughtered back-and-forth in matches because the defensive networks weren't as strong. Eviscerate and Bull's Strike used to be even better than they are now and Gale was on a 3 second knockdown, remember. It's not like teams were gimped offensively.

Abilities on both sides of the fence need to be fixed.

~Z

Those were actually the fun times. Its good to know you can die easily. It keeps you alert. It also weeds out the bad players from the good. Any bad player can ward camp or stay close enough to a monk to get Aegis or DA. The good players don't die when they have no defense.

Bull strike would only KD on fleeing foes (a moving foe getting hit directly from behind). How that's better than it is now I'll let you explain.

Theli · Sep 14, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Bull's Strike: increased recharge time to 10 seconds.
I think that he is talking about, that bull's strike not the "Fleeing foes" one, when Bulls Strike sux.

And yes Both Mel and Wearying need a nerf.
Mel is stupid, hard to spike, no DW, no Blind, No Crip, No weak.
Wearying is just a non-elite unconditional DW.
Why the new derv skill, Crippling Victory is 12 secs and Wearying 8? just for the weakness?. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Bankai · Sep 14, 2007, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Those were actually the fun times. Its good to know you can die easily. It keeps you alert. It also weeds out the bad players from the good. Any bad player can ward camp or stay close enough to a monk to get Aegis or DA. The good players don't die when they have no defense.

Bull strike would only KD on fleeing foes (a moving foe getting hit directly from behind). How that's better than it is now I'll let you explain.

Way too read a post. What Zur was saying is that warriors were insanely strong back in the era when people would only take wards+a blindbot or aegis. And lots of people started dying.

I agree here. Defensive capabilities are too huge, I really, really want more deaths on a gvg. 50% block cap?