Curse

Zuranthium · Sep 07, 2007, 02:11 PM // 14:11

I agree that Spirit of Failure was maybe overnerfed. Price is fine because of the in-attribute Synergy with Reckless.

~Z

Seamus Finn · Sep 07, 2007, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I agree that Spirit of Failure was maybe overnerfed. Price is fine because of the in-attribute Synergy with Reckless.

~Z

But really who cares? Both these skills were ugly in every way when they saw play and I think they still do see play in Reno-style hex builds. Mesmers still have the very unfun spirit shackles and necros have too much to list in the way of crashing-the-party-that-is-fun-guild-wars-with-lame-hexes. Don't mistake that hex builds are extremely powerful even now when teams choose to run them. I think the community really just gets burned out from running them more than hexes ever being truly underpowered. At least that's how I perceive the last 6 or so months of GW meta.

Zuranthium · Sep 07, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Meh, anti-attacking hexes just changed to Wards + DA + B-surge. Now instead of needing more hex removal you need more interrupts.

Condi removal, Hex removal, Enchant removal, and interrupts should all be standard for GvG teams anyway. In the case of a skill like Spirit of Failure, both interrupts (hello long cast time) and hex removal counters it. I really just want to see the breakpoint for the 3-energy gain on Spirit of Failure changed from 12 to 10. That way the risk of the 15 energy cost is worth it in comparison to Spirit Shackles. Like all balance issues it's a fine line to draw but I don't think hexes need to be frowned upon. A balanced hex build just switches out a Dom Mes for an Illusion Mes and a Para or Elem for a Necro. They can split just as well and play just as "fun" as any other regular balanced build, it's simply a different mechanic.

~Z

Seamus Finn · Sep 07, 2007, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Meh, anti-attacking hexes just changed to Wards + DA + B-surge. Now instead of needing more hex removal you need more interrupts.

Interrupts or Hex Removal... which would I prefer to "have" to run more of? Well seeing as how robust interrupts are I think thats a no brainer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

A balanced hex build just switches out a Dom Mes for an Illusion Mes and a Para or Elem for a Necro. They can split just as well and play just as "fun" as any other regular balanced build, it's simply a different mechanic.

~Z

Two slots in a build is not a small change at all(and many hex builds will run 3 hexers, not counting the water ele). I suppose which "mechanic" is more fun is really personal preference, but playing those kind of hexers has always felt moronic to me. I think the majority of GW players prefer not to play as hexers or play hexers and usually choose to do so only when money is at stake. Why people would want to buff skills that some attribute for a large decline in the games popularity stuns me.

wuzzman · Sep 08, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Woot the meta has soooo gotten better. Now I can take Sod+Wards+Blindbot+DA+Aegis Chain + Spam Guardian+the occasional Sor. Yep so much better then hexes. There a new build out, its called wait-for-vod-way. 18 minute matches guaranteed .

and honestly how much interupting can be done in a balance build. BA/Cripshot ranger is usually ganking bases, and is your mesmer suppose to remember every time an aegis chain ends when even flag runners use it??? while shutting down a monk? Half the match is spent avoiding the other Mor diversions ^_^.

Neo-LD · Sep 08, 2007, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Woot the meta has soooo gotten better. Now I can take Sod+Wards+Blindbot+DA+Aegis Chain + Spam Guardian+the occasional Sor. Yep so much better then hexes. There a new build out, its called wait-for-vod-way. 18 minute matches guaranteed .

and honestly how much interupting can be done in a balance build. BA/Cripshot ranger is usually ganking bases, and is your mesmer suppose to remember every time an aegis chain ends when even flag runners use it??? while shutting down a monk? Half the match is spent avoiding the other Mor diversions ^_^.

The new meta is much, much better than the old one.

1. Most of the defensive measure you meantioned (SoD, SoR, Blind, Guardian) are active defenses that require someone to pay attention and have a brain to use, since they need to be cast on the right guys at the right times and need to be reapplied often. This is marked improvement from hexes, where any retard could reckless/price or faint any physical he wanted and go to sleep for 30 seconds.

2. Aegis, Wards, and DAnthem arent active defenses, I know, and I wouldnt mind an update that discouraged their use. However, all of those are perfectly fair game for shutdown - Not to mention that they dont last very long (Aegis, DAnthem) or only affect a relatively small area (Ward). Further complaints about defense, at this point, is really just whining about anything that beats you. This is different than the complaints about hexes, since those were actually bad for the game (they didnt reward player skill). However, in the new meta, if you cant break through a simple balanced defense (active prot + ward + aegis), you're just bad.

Greedy Gus · Sep 08, 2007, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Having just come back to the game and gvging last night, as far as meta goes I can say that the dual dom mes based builds are really refreshing to see. These make for offensive games, where people are constantly under the threat of death, and the game is a lot more touch-and-go and active. Hell, monks even have to kite around.

Then again, it's painfully obvious that the mass defense layering builds still work fine. Just as an example, iso didn't even kite for half a game last night because they brought so much defense; same with other SoD monks in heavy defense builds.

From what I can gather, for some period between the august skill update & the release of EotN, there was a perception of balance: people felt that good changes had been made, and were running stronger balanced builds and leaving more degenerate stuff away. But that's the problem with a perception of balance, it only exists because it exists. Recently, it seems that teams are falling back into more degenerate stuff like hex spammers, layered passive/active defense stacks, fire ele spammers, etc. because 'oh yeah' it still works fine.

The meta in general seems better, but that's simply because more teams are running interesting, active, offensive builds. There are still plenty of teams & builds around that play just like 1-2 months ago. It's far from the ultra-balanced state that I saw being rejoiced on forums over the past weeks.

Servant of Kali · Sep 08, 2007, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Stop complaining and take more casters. Blindbots Wards Aegis SoD and Guardian as well as DA don't hurt casters. If everyone is playing with 2 warriors 2 paragons (or 1P 1R) then what's wrong with bringing counters? It's how metagame should work, and it's a smart thing to do. Nothing stops you from countering their meta (i believe 2 dom mes is already a counter to it somewhat).

Adapt and survive. None of these defensive skills is IMO overpowered. It's just that people would rather keep playing with 5 non-casters than actually take something else.

Seamus Finn · Sep 08, 2007, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Stop complaining and take more casters. Blindbots Wards Aegis SoD and Guardian as well as DA don't hurt casters.

Builds filled with casters require a lot of defensive baggage to keep them up or very good monks(which are quite rare). Furthermore, there aren't many casters(particularly offensive casters) that provide versatility with their damage, or at least that I have seen. NoT had a nice 3 ele build with 2 blinds and there is dual dom(of course dom mesmers are more assist type characters that enable your physicals than true damage dealing casters), but other than that you are looking at hexers, which I don't think many people want to run. Physicals are generally far more robust than casters and bring offense and defense that doesn't require skill slots to boot(and are also a lot of fun to play).

There really isn't a problem with Aegis, wards, DA, etc. in themselves, simply that they all exist and can be run in tandem in builds that can miraculously still kill things.

Greedy Gus · Sep 08, 2007, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Stop complaining and take more casters. Blindbots Wards Aegis SoD and Guardian as well as DA don't hurt casters. If everyone is playing with 2 warriors 2 paragons (or 1P 1R) then what's wrong with bringing counters? It's how metagame should work, and it's a smart thing to do. Nothing stops you from countering their meta (i believe 2 dom mes is already a counter to it somewhat).

I think the reason is because people have caught glimpses of the game when it was balanced toward one particular meta that happened to be very skill-based, fast-paced, and exciting/rewarding to play in. It can still be seen when two teams geared toward it are matched up. That niche happens to be roughly physical vs. anti-physical, with caster support and one or two strong skirmish characters. There is a very particular battle line gameplay that occurs.

Currently, it seems the balance is quite close to focusing on this gameplay again, but it's also at a crossroads. The balance could instead go in more of a general direction, where the meta can't settle into any particular niche area and grow in depth, but instead be a more broad array of viable setups. If most teams are bringing loads of physical defense, then sure maybe the meta goes to fire eles spamming their brains out and the cycle keeps moving.

Personally, I'm in favor of the gameplay with depth, would like nothing more than the balance being focused on that playstyle, and will continue to voice that. I am extremely uninterested in playing ring-around-the-rosy with heavy physical->heavy caster->spike->whatever, massively changing build types whenever a majority of the defensive meta gears toward something else, and I'm likewise uninterested in being shouted down and told to adapt and run stuff like loads of fire eles and hexers for damage. There is very fun active gameplay to be had, and it doesn't require adapting to degenerate playstyles by running button-mashers. It does require skill balances that reward skill & depth instead of simple broad diversity, so I'm not holding my breath.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Adapt and survive. None of these defensive skills is IMO overpowered. It's just that people would rather keep playing with 5 non-casters than actually take something else.

Maybe not 5 physicals, but yes I would absolutely rather keep playing in that style than take something else. Others would too, surely there must be a reason. It's because that gameplay is actually fun and challenging. And since I play the game for fun, that's why I'll continue running it and hoping that I face someone else who wants to do the same.

Servant of Kali · Sep 08, 2007, 10:13 AM // 10:13

I agree in a way. I didn't have hexers in mind actually.

It would be nice if Earth eles were viable, dmg skills are horrible (didn't use GWEN skills yet).

Also, it would be nice if useless Channeling skills were tweaked to provide some utility (not pure dmg, and hell no spike). I'm talking about skills such as Clamor of Souls (useless, should have some utility), Wailing Weapon (meh), slight buff to Destruction (because it doesn't live up to its name), Lamentation (I don't like pure dmg on this skill and it's useless outside of spike builds if anyone even uses those anymore) etc. There are other things but they would require listening to fan feedback when it comes to Rt's and I don't think that's gonna get done. What I mean is, actually making those Spawning spells viable.

Third, Blood necros. Because Blood is not so much about hexes really. Unfortunately blood is either used in spike or not at all (not talking about RA). Didn't try Gwen skills yet but it would be nice if some improvement would be made to actually made blood necros viable in GvG with dmg skills... I'm no necro pro so can't give more feedback, this is merely based on observations and have to say I didn't see blood necro in GvG in ages.

Fourth, making Earth Prayers viable but not spike-viable as it was before. While this would still probably include physical dmg from the scythe, a lot of the skills would not be affected by blind/block. Skills such as Sandstorm need to be tweaked so they aint good only in spike teams.

Fifth, and this will sound a bit weird but - making mesmer direct dmg skills useful in a non-spike way. I'm talking about buffing/tweaking Chaos Storm, Mistrust, Overload, Signet of Clumsiness, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I am extremely uninterested in playing ring-around-the-rosy with heavy physical->heavy caster->spike->whatever, massively changing build types whenever a majority of the defensive meta gears toward something else

Agreed. But to be honest, I think the main problem is the lack of versatility in many classes. Look at Dervish, all you see is Melandru, nothing else. Look at Ritualists, you never see them and if you do it's Remedy runner. Look at Assassin, I don't see much else than SP. Look at Ranger, how many viable builds you see them running in GvG aside of AP/BA? Look at paragons, their Motivation line is completely useless outside of 8-paragon groups if those exist anymore either (and the class gets reward for the worse modeled class ever). Mesmers run the same thing too, same as necros. And to be honest, I can't say other classes suprise me much in terms of skills used. In whole last year I can't say there's been a lot of inovations.

The problem, the way I see it, is that metagame is created by ridiculously buffing something, or leaving no counter for something and thus indirectly buffing it (look at how many real counters 90% of paragon skills have for instance).

The solution, the way I see it, isn't in buffing some skills on purpose beyond belief, so they are too overpowered not to use them. The solution is in difersifying the skills (=tweaking them) enough that they have a role in the game. It seems like tweaking the skills in this game is a big no-no for whatever reason. Look at Protective Bond. Is it so difficult to completely change the skill into some useful one, with a nice effect? I can name zillion of skills which seemed useless from the start, absolute thrash, and no wonder no one used em. Did these skills serve only one purpose, advertisement for new chapter as in "we offer 400 new skills"? Probably. But right now Gwen is out, GW2 isn't there yet, and no new expansions at sight. Isn't it time to approach skill balance seriously? I know there's no money motivation but there are plenty of good suggestions on Wiki under Underpowered/Overpowered skill section.

In short, I do agree with you, that we play the game for fun. That's exactly why I'm against the generic "skill does xy dmg nothing else" approach. Who needs Clamor of Souls the way it is now? No one, ele non-elite skill is better and always will be, and Clamor can't be buffed more in terms of dmg because it will only end up in spike builds. Why not, considering it's elite after all, give it some more interesting effect like "All foes in the Area take xy dmg and lose all Shouts/Chants/Finales" or whatever. I'm not saying this would necessarily make the skill worth taking but darn it would at least make it more useful and fun on the paper.

ps: And I hope no one will come with "we don't want too many viable skills because who would memorize them all". Oh pls, go play Tic-Tac-Toe.

Zuranthium · Sep 08, 2007, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Why people would want to buff skills that some attribute for a large decline in the games popularity stuns me.

It's not a buff to hex builds, though, it's simply to make SoF a comparable option to Spirit Shackles. Which it really isn't at this point. Hexes can be a fine, balanced type of build...not just the OP thing that they were. Some of the changes and additions have made playing hexes more active. With Corrupt you actually want to remove a good enchantment, not just spam it like you did with Reapers. The new skill Atrophy requires good team co-ordination to make the most out of the window it creates. I don't find playing Migraine Mes to be boring either. *shrug*

~Z

audioaxes · Sep 08, 2007, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

no they weren't

yes they did

at 20 second recharge you can only really keep one person under constant hex which makes it impractical for anything besides random arenas
putting the cost at 15 energy just makes it ridiculously overnerfed

a more decent nerf would be to increase the energy to 15 but keep the recharge at the original 10 seconds, and then maybe increase the cast time by a second

Thomas.knbk · Sep 08, 2007, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioaxes

at 20 second recharge you can only really keep one person under constant hex which makes it impractical for anything besides random arenas
putting the cost at 15 energy just makes it ridiculously overnerfed

a more decent nerf would be to increase the energy to 15 but keep the recharge at the original 10 seconds, and then maybe increase the cast time by a second

Throwing random numbers at me doesn't really prove anything. These hexes took a physical out of the game for their entire duration. Regardless of the hexes being balanced or not, it's a better game without them.

audioaxes · Sep 08, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

what kind of argument is that?
killing skills that you dont like is never a solution

Seamus Finn · Sep 08, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Agreed. But to be honest, I think the main problem is the lack of versatility in many classes.

There are actually many viable builds for most of the classes(my guild ran a motivation paragon towards the end of the hex cycle and it actually was very useful), but one thing to remember about these template builds is that they are the template builds that most competant players will basically know how to play. It makes guesting and setting up for gvgs much easier and consistent than coming up with crazy builds. I do think that is why people will often slot the same characters, along with just copying builds they have seen work on obs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I don't find playing Migraine Mes to be boring either. *shrug*

~Z

I do. Two nights ago I guested with a monk in my guild for a smurf guild that ran hexes. The monk ran teh migraine mes and was so bad at interrupting he misseda migrained Meteor Shower. Didn't matter at all since he can humil an LoD. The teams wiped in about 2 mins, one being close to top 100.

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioaxes

what kind of argument is that?
killing skills that you dont like is never a solution

Actually, it is a pretty good solution to me. At least in the case of hex builds which I believe are pretty unanimously disliked by players that want more than just easy ladder farming. There are plenty of skill that are in the Guild Wars garbage heap. Why must these hexes be pulled out of the heap(if Spirit Shackles even exists it's actually LESS of an incentive to buff another lame hex in the same attribute, in my opinion)? Because they were once overpowered? You may as well cry for buffs to flare; it would make as much sense to me... being none.

Thomas.knbk · Sep 08, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioaxes

what kind of argument is that?
killing skills that you dont like is never a solution

why not?

12 chars

wuzzman · Sep 08, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

The new meta is much, much better than the old one.

1. Most of the defensive measure you meantioned (SoD, SoR, Blind, Guardian) are active defenses that require someone to pay attention and have a brain to use, since they need to be cast on the right guys at the right times and need to be reapplied often. This is marked improvement from hexes, where any retard could reckless/price or faint any physical he wanted and go to sleep for 30 seconds.

2. Aegis, Wards, and DAnthem arent active defenses, I know, and I wouldnt mind an update that discouraged their use. However, all of those are perfectly fair game for shutdown - Not to mention that they dont last very long (Aegis, DAnthem) or only affect a relatively small area (Ward). Further complaints about defense, at this point, is really just whining about anything that beats you. This is different than the complaints about hexes, since those were actually bad for the game (they didnt reward player skill). However, in the new meta, if you cant break through a simple balanced defense (active prot + ward + aegis), you're just bad.

1. The passive defense makes the active defense brainless. Half the time I can see LONG periods of time when the only people moving was the flag runner and the frontline....Can a warrior really tell the difference between if he swing through aegis chain or being stoned walled by an sod? How hard it is to use Blinding surge when you see a warrior use shock or eviscreate?

2. With issue one considered, all the meta really is but a glorified rainbow spike. Shatter Enchantments on 1, lightning orb on 2, maybe a "go for the eyes" just before the spike depending on the build, and of course an adreline spike but really not the complex engine it should be. Its wait-for-vod-way, hope that your BA/Cripshot ranger kills enough npc's, but what really "skilled" about this meta?

twicky_kid · Sep 09, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

The big problem I see is the movement from removal to prevention. Its so hard to hit anything through a ward, bsurge, aegis, sod, guardian, and weapon of warding stack. Don't get me wrong I was all for the SoD buff. I was probably one of the first on these forums to even suggest it. Others like Ensign made a few comments on it and it went from there. Looking back on it I fully regret ever making a suggestion to buff SoD. I play frontline primarily. Defensive skills need to be nerfed into the ground so hard but at the same time you need to tone down some of the offense on certain builds (like sin's solo spike).

I remember when builds would carry 2 extinguish because of the shear amount of conditions being applied. Now with all the block skills being stacked constantly its nearly impossible to spread the conditions to more than 2 players before monk's remove it all. LoD is also contributing to this. Conditions don't put out the same amount of pressure when you compare the Heal Party meta to the LoD meta. I don't like the environment that LoD has created. Heal Party at least had a limit of how long you could sustain a constant cast, fear of interruption, and needed a sufficient point investment in a 2nd class to make it usable.

The other thing hurting GW is diversity. "What are you talking about look at all the classes in the game." Yes, there are alot of classes and you can choose a 2nd class. If you look closely at the bars its just about all primary skills. When there is a 2nd class skill on the bar its usually a no attribute skill or req very little point investment.

Hp inscripts increasing the life totals on the game is another reason spike is a must now. Its very difficult to pressure under these conditions at 500-525 life pre-NF. I very rarely see a pressure kill with any monks around. Increasing the HP totals while adding more def skills and buffing old def skills at the same was not a very smart move. It forces 1 type of play style on every build. Spike or nothing.

KebabVan · Sep 09, 2007, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

1. The passive defense makes the active defense brainless. Half the time I can see LONG periods of time when the only people moving was the flag runner and the frontline....Can a warrior really tell the difference between if he swing through aegis chain or being stoned walled by an sod? How hard it is to use Blinding surge when you see a warrior use shock or eviscreate?

2. With issue one considered, all the meta really is but a glorified rainbow spike. Shatter Enchantments on 1, lightning orb on 2, maybe a "go for the eyes" just before the spike depending on the build, and of course an adreline spike but really not the complex engine it should be. Its wait-for-vod-way, hope that your BA/Cripshot ranger kills enough npc's, but what really "skilled" about this meta?

Wuzzman you have no clue at all, why do you talk as if you know what you're talking about? If you has any decent experience at a reasonably high level of gvg, you would know what's skilled about it. Its pointless trying to explain stuff to you, but to give you an example - when reno hexway first became popular, you would often see guild at around r300-400 shoot to r100-200 in a week simply by changing to hexway. They hadnt improve as players or as a team but won more due to the build needing less skill.

The fact you even ask what's skilled about the meta compared to hex meta shows how little you know or understand about gvg.