Curse

twicky_kid · Aug 11, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Just tested, Heat + FGJ still takes 3 hits to charge Fierce Blow.

I still think it has potential for abuse. :P

I've been using it with Focused Anger. Allows me to charge my hammer bash in 2 hits. Its probably broken on a number of different skills. Since its never been really important to check no ever noticed.

Half of the fixes to skills come after players realize that its broken.

Ben-A-BoO · Aug 11, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Can anybody help me figuring this out?

What is the point of that:

Wielder's Strike: reduced recharge time to 5 seconds.

So I can exhaust myself faster?

1. Wielders Strike:
2. Wielders Strike:

(On a 35 energy bar - Survivor Insignia's - +5 e one hand - shield)

Honestly people, I tried it a few times and exhaustion on the energy bar of the Ritualist still doesn't make sense to me.

Nerf the spike skills, fine with me,
- 2 seconds casting time (ouch but hey)
- Recharge time: tomorrow (okay you did that with others, why not again)
- Conditional damage applies to random target (aight, lets make it pressure spells)
- remove the conditional element after use (whoops, spike removes vital - nice idea)
- tone down damage so you need 16 rits to kill (weehhheee gotta love the 1 vs 1 vs 1 HA maps)

As you might have noticed this is not all meant to serious - kill the Rit's totally if you hate them so much. But using Exhaustion to do so is a bit to far.

I wonder if they thought about Aegis and LoD costing exhaustion as well

Heads up and thanks for your time,
Timebandit

Nightwind Of Dwayna · Aug 11, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

GvG is fun again!! Thank you, thank you, thank you for this very well-thought-out update. My guild played 6-7 games tonight and although we did get rolled by the XoO A-team, we had fun the ENTIRE time we were playing.

A+. Izzy is win. ANet is win. My favorite game has redeemed itself yet again.

Two things.

1) Please, please, please consider moving Balthazar's Pendulum into Protection. As I've said elsewhere, it's function is protective (allowing the would-be-knocked-down softie to scamper away instead of eating a dirt sandwich), so it should be a prot skill. This also could help keep RaO and other melee-knockdown types in check...they are running rampant now due to the lack of hexes. All things considered, I would rather be KD'ed than see that hex crap, but B.P. would be a legit counter to these zerg builds. It's not viable as a smite skill, though. I'm not speccing into smite just for one skill, and I know I'm not the only one.

2) Everybody who's ever been killed by a Melandru Derv has made their way to this forum to state their opposition to the skill. I, on the other hand, stand on the side of the skill. It is not overpowered. Prot the target. Kite from the Derv. D-shot the skill. How long have we all been playing this game that this still eludes people? Sure, running a Melandru Derv is akin to driving a tank, but you just spent 25 energy on that tank. Kill the guy once or twice and his DP will prevent him from even using his Elite skill. The most worthless skill is one you don't have the energy to use (see: e-denial), so DP'ing or e-denying the Derv is a viable option. It's commonly run because it's the Form that makes the most sense to run (now that Grenth has been nerfed to death...which is ironic...) in PvP, not because it's wildly imbalanced. I know everyone's mad because their axe warriors can't go around Eviscerating everything in sight, but have we not learned to deal with this in other ways yet? For the record, I play mostly Monk and Warrior. I've played Dervish in PvP less than 20 times, I would say. So, this is not, like, my "pet skill" or anything. Everyone is just overreacting, IMO.

Anywho, this update pwns face. GG.

Riotgear · Aug 11, 2007, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by timebandit

Can anybody help me figuring this out?

What is the point of that:

Wielder's Strike: reduced recharge time to 5 seconds.

So I can exhaust myself faster?

I have no idea why they put exhaustion on Wielder's. But the purpose of exhaustion is, in general, a way to make a skill more tactically-flexible while preventing it from being overused. Most exhaustion-causing skills (except for some odd ones, like Meteor Shower) have low recharges because the exhaustion already mitigates how much it's used.

That said, for any other exhaustion-causing ability, the solution is simple: Maybe they're telling you to stop stacking your bar with shit that causes exhaustion? i.e. dumb spirit spam builds? It's better for bars with a low spirit count because it lets you drop a good spirit at a LOWER cost than before, the cost simply starts increasing as you start dumping more high-power spirits.

Quote:

2) Everybody who's ever been killed by a Melandru Derv has made their way to this forum to state their opposition to the skill. I, on the other hand, stand on the side of the skill. It is not overpowered. Prot the target. Kite from the Derv. D-shot the skill. How long have we all been playing this game that this still eludes people? Sure, running a Melandru Derv is akin to driving a tank, but you just spent 25 energy on that tank. Kill the guy once or twice and his DP will prevent him from even using his Elite skill.

If I had a button labelled "kill" that I could push to just wipe out one of their Dervishes, I'd probably do that. Unfortunately, that's not how things work. They can run out of d-shot's range and use it, so that's a stupid suggestion. Kite and prot = Considering the main balance issue is Mel's vs. warrior frontlines and those work on both, that's irrelevant. It's like dropping Diversion's recharge to 3 and saying "use Savage Shot more." DP their energy pool to death? Weapon swaps, gg.

Reality: "Just kill them" is pretty hard with DW immunity and +100HP. Wearying Strike is ridiculous. Blind immunity = Special-case hard counter = Build wars. When Cracked Armor makes warriors more fragile while the tree is still immune, and when Disarm is busy emptying adrenaline pools while Dervishes only suffer a microscopic delay, it's only going to get worse.

street peddler · Aug 11, 2007, 06:49 AM // 06:49

i dont mind the exhaustion on spirits, its workable, just take one speaciality (disenchantment, dissonance, bla bla etc) spirit instead of piling them on your bar. The only exhaustion skills i have a problem with are wielders and ancestors because theyre not worth the exhaustion, couldnt you just tone the damage down? or maybe instead of exhaustion, there could be some kind of life sac, then theyd at least be usable.

And as for the Xinrae skills, those skills suck and will continue to suck no matter what they do to them.

LuckyGiant · Aug 11, 2007, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightwind Of Dwayna

Sure, running a Melandru Derv is akin to driving a tank, but you just spent 25 energy on that tank. Kill the guy once or twice and his DP will prevent him from even using his Elite skill. The most worthless skill is one you don't have the energy to use (see: e-denial),

Umm, its pretty stupid not to run a 20e staff to make sure u can always put up mels.

urania · Aug 11, 2007, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Desperation Blow/Drunken Blow: these Skills now only knock you down if they hit.

finally :]

now waiting for the deadly paradox nerf.

Riotgear · Aug 11, 2007, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Deviant Was Xinrae blows, but might find use in PvE. Xinrae's Weapon should make the spell fail as soon as it finishes casting, which might make it worth it for intercepting Diversions as well as stopping spikes.

EDIT -- Whoops, works on multiple spells. Heh. Guess they need an overhaul after all.

Ben-A-BoO · Aug 11, 2007, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I have no idea why they put exhaustion on Wielder's.

Me neither, but I think the reason was to kill Rit spike...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

But the purpose of exhaustion is, in general, a way to make a skill more tactically-flexible while preventing it from being overused.

Yeah, but why then at the same time reduce the recharge time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Maybe they're telling you to stop stacking your bar with shit that causes exhaustion? i.e. dumb spirit spam builds?

Right, I think that is what they want ... but hey, how many spirit "spam" builds with Anguish, Wanderlust, Disenchantment and Dissonance have you seen lately in pvp?
(my focus here might be narrowed by not playing HB).

And offensive spirits are in general a bad idea in tactical pvp if you ask me due to their random attack mode.

Anyhow, thanks for the reply,
Timebandit

Riotgear · Aug 11, 2007, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by timebandit

Yeah, but why then at the same time reduce the recharge time?

Probably to keep it in line with the mentality of giving skills exhaustion in the first place. Perhaps I didn't explain well, high energy cost prohibits when a skill can be used as well as the use of any other skill, high recharges prohibit the frequent use of a skill even over a short duration. Exhaustion is designed to sort of "offload" those drawbacks to make a non-spammable skill more tactically useful. Granted, this doesn't make it make sense on Wielder's, just explaining the thought process.

Quote:

And offensive spirits are in general a bad idea in tactical pvp if you ask me due to their random attack mode.

Right, which is handled via saturation. One person getting interrupted every few seconds and one person getting KDed every few seconds, regardless of who it is, is extremely disruptive.

nugzta · Aug 11, 2007, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Exhaustion on Rit is kinda weird solution to me, it is acceptable on ele due high energy but not on Rit. Imo it is better to reduce the effective of spirits if the spirits being spam. For example, 1-3 allied spirits = no penalty, 3-5 allied spirits = reduction on spirits HP/armor and take more damage when hit, 5+ allied spirits = greater reduction on spirits HP/armor and take even more damage when hit.

Also maybe,

Wielder's Strike
Spell. Target foe is struck for 15...51 lightning damage. If you are under the effects of a weapon Spell, you deal an additional 15...51 lightning damage and you lose a weapon Spell.

Spirit Burn
Spell. Target foe is struck for 5...41 lightning damage. If any Spirits are within earshot, Spirit Burn deals +10...34 damage and the spirit nearest to you loses A...B health.

Mend Body and Soul
Target ally is healed for 20...96 Health. That ally loses one Condition for all Spirits within earshot. For each condition removed, each spirit loses X...Y health.

Spirit Light
Spell. Sacrifice 17% Health. Target ally is healed for 60...156. If any Spirits are within earshot, the spirit nearest to you loses 17% health instead. (maybe reduce % slightly)

Few things come to my mind.

Ben-A-BoO · Aug 11, 2007, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Thanks for clarification Riotgear,
I got your point.

Still I can't see that exhaustion is a good mechanic to balance the Ritualist and give their spells and spirit usage a more tactical component.
The drawback of Exhaustion is just to big on spells that can't be seen as utility skills, such as wielder's and ancestors in comparison to shock and gale. Ritualist energy poll is too small for those big sacrifices.

As others stated, I see the main problem in the relatively uselessness of their primary attribute, which allows them to max out two attribute lines (thus having good offensive and defensive capabilities at the same time). A similar problem occurred to paragons and resulted in a heavy nerf.

I still don't get why a usual nerf strategy to duration, recharge, casting time, energy potential, condition to be met and sacrifice are not viable to balance a build like the Rit spike...

By the way, I really do like the update (good job on drunken blow ...) but Anet failed yet to balance the Ritualist this time (again).

Thanks for your time,
Timebandit

Thomas.knbk · Aug 11, 2007, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by timebandit

Yeah, but why then at the same time reduce the recharge time?

Think of exhaustion as a credit card. In the long run you still won't be able to use it more than an average of once every 30 seconds, but if you really need to use it twice in a row, you can, provided you let your exhaustion wear off after that.

frojack · Aug 11, 2007, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Well actually exhaustion on those Rit spirits is cool. I think it's a very good change. The only problem is Anet didn't go far enough to improve Dissonance and Disenchantment to compensate for the addition of it.

5 second creation times kinda' throw tactics out of the window considering how different a battle can be in even a mere 5 seconds. Plus it's complete interrupt bait. They have interesting effects and should be very costly, but not so much so in it's tactical application.

Anguish is somewhat good now. Still never liked it much since it's just dumb conditional dd after all. I guess it has synergy with Signet of Might or something so maybe someone will make use of that. Doubtful but there you go...

The change on spirits is the right direction to go in I think. Make them more costly but allow more tactical application (even though it's somewhat difficult with random targeting, and the best spirits aren't there yet). There should really never be more than 2 spirits on any given rit bar in my view. Hopefully this will go some way to achieve that.

I've always felt that part of the ethos of exhaustion is that the spells/skills are significantly stronger than their counterparts and have tactical advantage in that they can be re-used quite frequently if deemed appropriate but at an insane cost. Basically over-powered skills with the leash of exhaustion controlling them.
With that in mind, the recent energy and recharge reduction make sense. However there isn't much tactical advantage to Wielders or Ancestors since all they do is damage in a line where you have plenty of similar skills.

However despite 'repeating' that, additionally I've always felt the rules for non-elementalist exhaustion spells are slightly different. Gale (fast cast no less) is head and shoulders above most of the other exhausting skills in terms of quality by virtue of it's undeniable strength.
Isn't it funny that it also deals zero damage? The point is, utility is usually far better than damage since it's generally not a casters job to get kill.

moko · Aug 11, 2007, 10:05 AM // 10:05

i'm sitting at my comp shouting "YES, YES, YES, YESSSSSSSS!!!!!"

now wtb deadly paradox and melandru (+with wearying).

wonderful changes ANET, please keep it goin. (:

Bio-Flame · Aug 11, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

I couldn't care less on HOW they nerfed Rit Spike/Spirit Spamm into oblivion, just that ANET did it.

They killed Rit Spike guys. What's the difference if the method to kill it was Exhaustion, recharge, cost, damage nerf, etc....?
I will have no problem with the Ritualist class dieing as far as PvP is concerned.
Unless you're concerned with PvE which isn't the purpose of this thread.

kvndoom · Aug 11, 2007, 01:04 PM // 13:04

I'd like to see Weapon of Shadow buffed to 5e 15r still. Even if it stays at 10e I'd like to see 15r on it, and maybe 3/4c. Spirits in PVP were a bad idea from the start (and the worst offenders won't be missed at all), but weapon spells kick ass. Maybe even buff Spirit Light Weapon a bit too, add 3-5 health per second to its current amount (5 might be a little too much). Weapon spells can be strong anti-spikes, and buffing certain ones can strengthen rits as supportive casters.

Zuranthium · Aug 11, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

What's the difference if the method to kill it was Exhaustion, recharge, cost, damage nerf, etc....?

The difference is that they could have found ways to make the skills useful for solo Rits and not overpowered for Rit Spike. Such as Spirit Burn causing burning instead of extra damage as the secondary. That would have dropped its power for Rit spike teams but kept it open as a pressure skill for single Rits.

Instead, they completely killed the class. Which really sucks because Rits have a lot of unique mechanics that could be balanced. Yes, even spirits. The class is basically only useful in RA now.

street peddler · Aug 11, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

well they didnt kill the rit, they just killed those particular skills (ancestors and wielders) and now people cant mindlessly spirit spam... personally i never used spirits in pvp but eh, maybe now the rit hatred will go away..

Thomas.knbk · Aug 11, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Patccmoi says he's already found some new builds for rits around the nerfs, so I'm just going to assume the Rit is not dead if y'all don't mind.