Curse

Neo-LD · Aug 10, 2007, 02:38 PM // 14:38

This is the most amazing update I've ever seen. Thank you Anet. Rits, Aegis, Punishing Shot, Guardian, Remove Hex, Savage Slash, Drain Enchant, Hexes, SoR... all wonderful.

Rending Touch is going to be crazy, though. Revert pls.

rohara · Aug 10, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

ok, so...yeah, rit spike needed to be spanked into oblivion, but now ritualists have like no pvp viability at all. hell, none in pve either. they didn't have much to begin with anyway! what are we supposed to do now, run nothing but resto and cry as monks still outperform us?

and buff some assassin lead attacks please - shadow prison was the only thing sins really had going on for them. it was overused for a reason - everything else is so clumsy/underpowered there's no reason take a sin over a warrior or dervish.

nice job on the other updates though

kvndoom · Aug 10, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

The new Rending Touch is crazy. Put that on a Warrior or Assassin and yeeee-haw!! I think I'm just gonna make people miserable with that W/D build until something is done about it. I need to kill anyway. Get tired of healing fools all the time.

Dancing Daggers isn't the problem. It's the Entangling Asp (unavoidable KD + poison) and Toxic Shock (high armor ignoring damage, unless you get the poison removed fast enough) which are the problem.

Draco Angelus · Aug 10, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitchel

Deadly Paradox + Dancing Daggers + Augury of Death

Thats the same as dying from stone daggers, actually stone daggers are superior to DD, as the recharge is way better, the superiority of the A/ spiker comes from a bunch of other spells as well. But all are require quite an energy investment.

I was thinking the same thing, apart from the deep wound, Assassin Deadly Arts is quite inferior to most other offensive magic, and requires plenty of e-management.

moko · Aug 10, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

the problem with these assassins (Team Arenas, they aren't used anywhere else) is that, in packs, they have WAY too many deepwounds, spike abilities AND unavoidable KDs.

deadly paradox completely kills the chance to interrupt properly.

so yes, once again, it's deadly paradox.

imagine that for a dancing daggers spike, with gale in earth without exhaustion, another uncondional KD, bit of degen, deepwound which is so easy to meet, and an afterspike.

also; each dagger does not hurt for more than 60, and soa is hardly useful for a 5 attack combo. (3 daggers, Shock, SOJ)

thing is, IF you stand long enough, they will die to energy, but usually the whole team got wiped in the first go.

basically you can compare it with a bomb; it either insta wipes the other team, or you lose. usually it's the first, though.

killing paradox would kill it in -

recharge
cast

and allow a bit more disruption again, also that horrible strong DW spam dies.

and yes, rending touch is insane, lol.

street peddler · Aug 10, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Glyph of Energy now has a 10 second recharge. Maybe use that and finally have some decent e-management?

Basically, before the nerf, Rits could happilly spam spirits, weapon spells, and heals. Now, they have to THINK before casting something. Rit spike is still playable, it's just that you have to cope with what Eles had since the beginning of GW.

im sorry, they could do something so freely as play without some mind numbingly bad restriction placed on them, so should warrrior skills be disabled for 10 seconds after being used? or maybe shadowstepping should be disabled for sins for 60 seconds after using a shadowstep?

eles also have massive energy, 10 energy shaved off for 30 seconds doesnt really make a difference, and i shouldnt have to waste an elite on something that should just stay with the ele.

Patccmoi · Aug 10, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

the problem with these assassins (Team Arenas, they aren't used anywhere else) is that, in packs, they have WAY too many deepwounds, spike abilities AND unavoidable KDs.

deadly paradox completely kills the chance to interrupt properly.

so yes, once again, it's deadly paradox.

imagine that for a dancing daggers spike, with gale in earth without exhaustion, another uncondional KD, bit of degen, deepwound which is so easy to meet, and an afterspike.

also; each dagger does not hurt for more than 60, and soa is hardly useful for a 5 attack combo. (3 daggers, Shock, SOJ)

thing is, IF you stand long enough, they will die to energy, but usually the whole team got wiped in the first go.

basically you can compare it with a bomb; it either insta wipes the other team, or you lose. usually it's the first, though.

killing paradox would kill it in -

recharge
cast

and allow a bit more disruption again, also that horrible strong DW spam dies.

and yes, rending touch is insane, lol.

Deadly Paradox needs to die for other reasons too. It just screws up all Assassin utility and forces it to be seriously underpowered without it. I mean, Entangling Asp at 10/1/12 would be fair all in all. It DOES require that it follows a lead after all, so it's not like Gale that you can use anytime on anyone to snare or disable or interrupt. It would be a great utility for dagger assassin using Lead-Offhand-Dual (assuming such a combo ever becomes viable), but you could never do it if Deadly Paradox exists (10/.5/6 kd? insanity). A LOT of assassin skills suffer from the same problem, they'd all be too powerful if buffed because of Deadly Paradox, but they all kinda suck without. So get rid of Deadly Paradox, it was a very bad idea (just nerf it so that it becomes a very niche skill to recharge something particular, or to make a combo fast once. So like 45s recharge, 5..10s duration. You could use it for instance to recharge Shadow Form fast, but not every time, or to do a DA combo really fast once every 45s but have to do the others at a normal pace, etc.), and buff Assassin utility accordingly.

As for whoever else quoted me earlier saying 'Rts can be used for other stuff', i fully agree. I'm far from saying 'Rts are dead in PvP' like some others are. I also have multiple Rt builds that i use(d) in all forms of PvP that are all in all totally unaffected by the nerf. Weapon Spells as a whole were really not affected for instance appart from Vital (which is still very good), and you can make really good builds out of them. But it doesn't mean that i think Exhaustion was a good idea. Exhaustion on Wielder's Strike for instance was just dumb (is Liquid Flame causing Exhaustion? Is Lightning Bolt causing exhaustion? Why should a base dd not ignoring armor cause exhaustion? Tweak the numbers, don't give it some dumb control like that that doesn't fit at all. Same for Ancestor's Rage, which was MASSIVELY buffed a few patches ago by giving it like +40 damage, and now it's like 'oh, it was too much, give it exhaustion'. Wtf?). And Exhaustion on Rts is VERY counter-intuitive because of the synergy with ashpots which LOWER your max energy and prevents weapon swaps, which is NOT something other classes are limited by at all. It doesn't mean that Rts are dead, not at all, but the dd skills that got hit with Exhaustion most certainly are. They should've simply be tweaked to be pressure skills, if possible with UTILITY (how many dd skills do you need in the same attribute line? Channeling has like what, 8-10 PURE dd skills? That's even more than Air. And many are near copy of others but with different requirements), and if they went away from pure dd you'd have a class with more depth and less abuse potential. But instead they put Exhaustion and killed the skills. Is that a proper balancing method? Not to me. It's a fast fix that will definitely kill Rt spike, but takes a lot out of the profession as well instead of using this chance during a balance session to add DEPTH to the profession while settling the problem in a different manner. I never said i wanted Rt spike to stay viable. I hated it. But as opposed to some others who just prefer to say 'remove Rts from the game!!!' i actually like Rts because of the mix of offense/defense/support they can have on one bar (not for spirit spamming or for spiking, but to be part of a balanced setup) and would've like to see more depth added to them so that they gained new skills that are good in balanced while going AWAY from spike-damage skills. As i said before, they already have well balanced spike damage skills with Gaze and Channeled Strike. They don't need 3-4 others.

And to repeat myself and everyone else in the thread, plz nerf Rending Touch!

Riotgear · Aug 10, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

the problem with these assassins (Team Arenas, they aren't used anywhere else) is that, in packs, they have WAY too many deepwounds, spike abilities AND unavoidable KDs.

I've seen that "Lol At Game Balance" team hold Halls with it for 4+ games straight several times.

Oh yeah, go post on Izzy's page and maybe Augury and DP will get fixed:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_...ugury_of_Death

Despozblehero · Aug 10, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Good job on most things, I cant point out anything new (*cough*SS/FM) so ill just say GJ to the balancers and I hope they keep working like this its so many steps in the right direction!

Apok Omen · Aug 10, 2007, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by street peddler

im sorry, they could do something so freely as play without some mind numbingly bad restriction placed on them, so should warrrior skills be disabled for 10 seconds after being used? or maybe shadowstepping should be disabled for sins for 60 seconds after using a shadowstep?

eles also have massive energy, 10 energy shaved off for 30 seconds doesnt really make a difference, and i shouldnt have to waste an elite on something that should just stay with the ele.

Eles have a massive energy pool for a reason besides handling exhasution: High cost skills.

Besides, I never said exhaustion on Rit skills ( like, 5 of them? ) was the best solution, just that it would make Rits pay more attention rather than spamming skills, using OoS every 15 seconds for a free +13e boost without any penalty.

As other's have pointed out, other classes with the same energy limit as the Rit use Gale and other exhaustion-inducing skills and never cry about having to wait 30 seconds for 10 energy to fill up again.

I realize that you are trying to stick up for Ritualists, but even YOU should know that Ritualists are overpowered so badly that a little change like longer cast time, longer recharge, higher energy cost, or even lowered damage won't fix them.

Also, I wouldn't knock off GoE now, seeing as its probably better than OoS now...

Relambrien · Aug 10, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

I've noticed that the meta has already shifted to preemptively deal with builds that would be used as a result of this update.

For instance, just last night I didn't see hardly as many enchantments as I did before (though perhaps the lack of Aegis chains made this seem more drastic than it was), probably due to people thinking Warriors would run Rending Touch all over the place. Now, I don't know if that's everyone else's experience, but that's what it's been like for me.

fripple · Aug 10, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Eles have a massive energy pool for a reason besides handling exhasution: High cost skills.

Besides, I never said exhaustion on Rit skills ( like, 5 of them? ) was the best solution, just that it would make Rits pay more attention rather than spamming skills, using OoS every 15 seconds for a free +13e boost without any penalty.

As other's have pointed out, other classes with the same energy limit as the Rit use Gale and other exhaustion-inducing skills and never cry about having to wait 30 seconds for 10 energy to fill up again.

I realize that you are trying to stick up for Ritualists, but even YOU should know that Ritualists are overpowered so badly that a little change like longer cast time, longer recharge, higher energy cost, or even lowered damage won't fix them.

Also, I wouldn't knock off GoE now, seeing as its probably better than OoS now...

Gale (and Shock, I guess, which tended to go on bars that didn't particularly need energy to begin with, so they could absorb the exhaustion with minimal penalty) is not the same kind of skill as any of the ones affected by the exhaustion change and you know it, so don't even try to play that card. It has an extremely specific function that is vital in team coordination, which is why it often got taken along despite the punishment one got for using it. These skills are not critical to a team's attack or defense (they were overpowered compared to other options, not filling a relatively unique role and quasi-essential), and as a result they do not justify taking them despite their exhaustion, and so will not see use. Not if the players are smart, anyway, but that's another matter.

Riotgear · Aug 10, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco Angelus

what's all this about fixing Deadly Paradox, I'm assuming I'm missing why it needs balancing.

Feigned Neutrality....
Shadow Form....
Entangling Asp....
Augury of Death....
Expunge Enchantments....
Other stuff?....

.... can't be balanced properly because of DP. Having free fast-cast and MOR with no recharge on a skill line is broken. Coincidentally, like MOR, DP's recharge needs to be bumped to 20 sec if it is going to stay, and it's STILL almost an elite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

Gale (and Shock, I guess, which tended to go on bars that didn't particularly need energy to begin with, so they could absorb the exhaustion with minimal penalty) is not the same kind of skill as any of the ones affected by the exhaustion change and you know it, so don't even try to play that card.

Exhaustion has no effect on bars that "need energy" since you'll be staying below the gray portion consistently. Exhaustion has an effect on bars that need to dump large amounts of energy in a short period of time. I find it ironic that ashpots are being mentioned in this discussion: So shitty buffs that take out the bottom 17 of your energy pool are fine, but taking 10 off the top isn't?

The point of exhaustion in ele skills is two-fold, you mentioned the first: Discouraging the use of spamming exhaustion abilities, but allowing them to be if the situation requires it. The other use for it, on skills like Meteor Shower and Chain Lightning, is to prevent oversaturation of powerful abilities.

Xinrae falls into the first category. Spirit spam falls into the second. Several copies of some combination of Disenchantment + Dissonance + Wanderlust tends to suck pretty hard. In a sane build, you'd only need one of those, so exhaustion seems to make sense. Putting it on Ancestor's Rage and Wielder's Strike, on the other hand, makes no sense at all, but I can't really complain when those two skills really, really needed to die.

Living Parasite · Aug 10, 2007, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

I can't really complain when this class really, really needed to die.

You ALMOST got it right.

Ka Tet · Aug 10, 2007, 08:25 PM // 20:25

overall it was an excellent update,
however a few things were missed, heros still need to be removed - unless im incorrect i saw mr patrick running with olias last evening in halls please tell me that that was just testing please, steady stance still needs something to balance it, spiritways came out unscathed - i know they werent a huge issue before the weekend event but since theyve been growing, and they can be very hard to combat, if you focus on tearing down layer after layer of spirits, the trappers are setting up bombs, while the spirits are getting reapplied, and the thumpers are destroying your backline and the nrts are spamming sick low cost heals, perhaps limiting the range of spirits and area of effect of traps would be good, just a thought
also there are a few changes that are amazingly dangerous, rodgorts prolly needs a 15 sec recharge, greatly reduced damage or exhaustion b/c as it stands: rodgorts + dual attune = game over, the change in cost for FGJ is great but perhaps 50% additional adren was enough
i wouldnt mind seeing the area of effect for aegis extended a little farther - maybe split the distance between the old range and the new?
the remainder of the balances all seemed pretty much in line, altho who knows what exploits the creative minds of gw'ers can come up with

Stormlord Alex · Aug 10, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

I like the new Guardian, Rending Touch is a bit.. OTT.
And.. I'm not sure exhaustion was the best way to do it, but who cares? Ritspike is dead ^_^

And I'm pretty damn sure other people have said it already, but the tree needs a tap, and SS/FM! needs a tap. Or a kick in the balls.

moriz · Aug 10, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

rit before the update: have strong offense, defense, healing, and party offensive buffs. what's even more broken, was that it was possible to have all that on the same bar. if that didn't cry overpowered, i don't know what does.

now at least, they are more in line with the other professions in terms of power.

and just because i can:

blessed light: reduce energy to 5. keep the 5s recharge. change functionality to: remove 1 hex, 1 condition, and heal for x. if you remove a hex, you lose 5 energy.

Andrew Patrick · Aug 10, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Hey,

There are a few more tweaks to skills coming in the next live build:

Dervish
Rending Touch: increased recharge time to 8 seconds.

Necromancer
Reckless Haste: increased Energy cost to 15; increased duration to 6..12 seconds; increased recharge time to 12 seconds.

Ritualist
Wielder's Strike: reduced recharge time to 5 seconds.
Ancestors’ Rage: reduced Energy cost to 5.

Warrior
Desperation/Drunken Blow: these Skills now only knock you down if they hit.

Thank you for your continued feedback.

kvndoom · Aug 10, 2007, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Good quick changes. Thanks!

Stormlord Alex · Aug 10, 2007, 11:00 PM // 23:00

My faith in A-Net is renewed...