Curse

tnyp · Nov 27, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

I would like the assassin to really become a hybrid and have a balance of warrior and mesmer traits.

I'd like to see it on the frontline, with Half-range/full range utility skills.
Currently skills like [card]Siphon Strength[/card] kind of show what I mean.
The +33% crit rate, helps for the idea of it on the frontline, and the Damage debuff to melee shows that mesmer side and the Full range utility.
There should be more things like that, just some buffed up to a power range and dagger damage debuffed a bit so that they create a unison and a good hybrid.

If you want to flame me, send a PM >.> less problematic for the mods.

I'd realy like that too. It would be a nice caracter to play and play against, with a style different than the mesmer's.

As suggested above, I think it should start by completely discouraging long combos by wiping out all lead attack skip and adding effect changes depending on certain conditions.
I'd see a normal sin build that way: combo of 3 attacks (that can also do other things than only damage, depending on specific conditions), 1 or 2 shadow stepping skills, and 2 to 3 utility skills.

Captain Robo · Nov 28, 2007, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

First step to remove the instagibbery:

If it follows a lead attack...
If it follows an offhand attack...

Chains that succeed are stronger than ones that miss an attack or two. Now the sin isn't useless for a minute after a failed attack.

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Quote:

Step 2 to remove instagibbery:

Add more armor/evasion skills.

Warriors have max armor.
Dervishes have 70 AL but enchantments to make up for it.
Assassins have 60 AL and WASD.

Now the assassin will be able to stay around the frontline without totally being murdered.

Assassins don't have 60 AL, they have 70 AL. Furthermore, how will lowering their AL to 60 and reducing their maneuverability to WASD increase frontline survivability?

Assassins aren't even meant to be frontline characters; they're designed to be highly mobile solo gankers. If you put them on the frontline, you have to expect them to pressure as well as warriors. More problems could be encountered by buffing Assassins to be as good as warriors; this is an overall bad idea.

frojack · Nov 28, 2007, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Actually assassins have 70 armour just like dervish (better if you count the +15 al while attacking set but whatever really, +hp is better on melee blah blah...). The only reason you see dervs up front and 'not' sins is because aside from Melandru being god-mode and Wearying blowing shit up, Derv damage for the most part is actually 'worth the risk'. Assassin damage generally isn't.

The one constant that makes a melee character worth the trouble of melee range is the constant source of 'free' damage. Dps. Sin dps is shit. You buff all the interesting mesmerish traits on the character and they will find their way onto that class itself or another caster. Since you actually have zero reason to run a melee character who can't pressure for free...

Symbol · Nov 28, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Sin dps is actually not shit. It can range from very good (the quickly recharging 4s combos) to amazing (moebius blossom). It's their autoattack dps that's shit (along with rangers, but that's another story).

Anyway, damage, pressure or spike, is not the issue with the class. It's the lack of strong utility in their supporting skill lines (the concepts are there, the implementation sucks), the relatively weakness of all the interesting dagger attack skills (read: LMS, Exhausting Assault, and Dstab), and their paper armor that keeps them from seeing play as anything other than instagib lolsins.

Incidentally dervs have many of these same problems too, it's just that melandru + wearying fixes enough of them to make the rest worth ignoring.

moriz · Nov 28, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

sin utility would've been very good, had they been allowed to use 12 skills instead of 8. unfortunately, they can only use 8 skills like the rest of us, and their at least decent utility got pushed to the wayside in favour of the attack chain.

i remember trying to go the other way. that is, a sin full of assassin utility and no attack chain. it didn't go well. the problem was, assassin uility was designed to benefit the sin only, and not the entire party. however, a sin loading a few of these utility skills couldn't do enough damage to make them worthwhile. that essentially relegated assassin support utility to the wayside, until anet buffed them and turned them into straight-up attack skills.

ensoriki · Nov 28, 2007, 12:59 AM // 00:59

If they allowed 12 skills sin Utility would still suck.
Why? Because everyone else would have 12 skills, leading to more counters, more buffs More Bullshit.

Sure if everyone had 8 but the sin >.>
Still the assassin needs more Siphon Strength like skills.
Shuts something down, gives you a crit boost, that in turn makes your DPS better.
crits are 32 damage vs 60 AL, which isn't bad damage if it was consistent.

Sin's arent supposed to be pure utility.

Siphon speed kinda does that, pretty spammable snare you can cast on multiple people.
Siphon Strength is almost there >.> Is there with deadly paradox.
Shroud of Silence >.> Dunno.

Things like Caltrops/blinding powder would be much better.
The recharges didn't suck, Caltrops wasn't freaking 10 energy.
Alot of sin skills have energy requiresments.....that an assassin cannot properly use.
Or recharges that make them not worth the slot >.> wtf is that about.
Some of them are so random its sad.
Spirit walk? SWAP!?

Sin should me Mesmer/Warrior
Maybe add a little Ranger spice in there.
Cook for 10 minutes, and done.
Adding some pressure similar to a warrior while adding hex's and other crap.

heres things.
Sin armor offers nothing, Caster armor offers them an extra 5 energy to 30.
Paragons and Warriors have better armor.
Dervishes have +25 hp
Rangers have extra armor vs Magic.
Sin has nothing.

I dunno >.> Buff the utility, Let Off-hands and leads become usable out of a chain, and give bonuses for being in a chain.
Give them some I dunno innate +5% movement speed on there armor >.>
Or maybe +10% chance to dual strike >.>

frojack · Nov 28, 2007, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Sin dps is actually not shit. It can range from very good (the quickly recharging 4s combos) to amazing (moebius blossom). It's their autoattack dps that's shit (along with rangers, but that's another story).

Anyway, damage, pressure or spike, is not the issue with the class. It's the lack of strong utility in their supporting skill lines (the concepts are there, the implementation sucks), the relatively weakness of all the interesting dagger attack skills (read: LMS, Exhausting Assault, and Dstab), and their paper armor that keeps them from seeing play as anything other than instagib lolsins.

Incidentally dervs have many of these same problems too, it's just that melandru + wearying fixes enough of them to make the rest worth ignoring.

Actually sin dps 'is' shit (no one uses rangers for any kind of dps, apply is just part of the package). If the class relies on skills to do any sort of pressure damage, chain dependent attacks make them far too vulnerable for the job. If Sin 'pressure' ever became a real threat, (read as, I look a bit like a warrior/derv) they will be taken care of. A simple lock on any part of a given chain significantly reducing dps just isn't worth the hassle.

They have no value as pressure melee. Essentially meaning they have very little value as melee full stop. (I naturally consider this in a universe where instagib isn't around).

The only really good utility on the class can come from melee skills, if any of it get's buffed. Any caster-like skills will need to be inherently gimped to prevent them from just being run on a caster (Impale).
Anything that is touch-range will need to be 10 energy and on silly recharges to stop people putting them on other, more effective melee (like a buffed Shadow Shroud for example).

There is very little you can do for the class with just a 'patch-up' as conceptually they are quite weak...

Symbol · Nov 28, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frojack

Actually sin dps 'is' shit (no one uses rangers for any kind of dps, apply is just part of the package). If the class relies on skills to do any sort of pressure damage, chain dependent attacks make them far too vulnerable for the job. If Sin 'pressure' ever became a real threat, (read as, I look a bit like a warrior/derv) they will be taken care of. A simple lock on any part of a given chain significantly reducing dps just isn't worth the hassle.

A "simple lock"? You make it sound so easy. The only skills that can practically disable a chain are diversion and dshot. It's easy to get around diversion by (say) throwing out a dual without an offhand and removing the hex, and it's not at trivial to dshot a dagger attack skill if the sin is at all smart and varying the timing of his attacks. Hitting .66 sec activations on reaction is extremely hard, even without lag in the picture.

The fact of the matter is that damage is not (and hasn't been for a while) a problem for sins. The fault lies elsewhere.

Quote:

The only really good utility on the class can come from melee skills, if any of it get's buffed. Any caster-like skills will need to be inherently gimped to prevent them from just being run on a caster (Impale).
Anything that is touch-range will need to be 10 energy and on silly recharges to stop people putting them on other, more effective melee (like a buffed Shadow Shroud for example).

No. Assassins are fairly unique in that they don't really need an elite...their killing power is in their regular skills. Putting shadow shroud on a warrior is a really dubious proposition even if A.net did buff it.

Quote:

There is very little you can do for the class with just a 'patch-up' as conceptually they are quite weak...

This is a common misconception. A.net can do a lot by just tweaking numbers to force skills into viability. Granted a lot of sins skills are just broken/stupid by design, but that's true for a lot of classes. It really isn't that hard to balance so that three or four reasonable templates become playable.

JR · Nov 28, 2007, 03:43 AM // 03:43

They should be condition based pressure, with strong methods of applying most of the conditions in the game. Spreading poison, bleeding, dazed, deep wound, cracked armor... and so on. They would rely less on combos, and have more utility available.
Their armor should be increased so they are more viable in the frontline, with their direct combo based damage reduced, and base weapon damage increased slightly.
Instead of Shadow Stepping they should be highly mobile by more normal means, such as skills like Dash.

This would hopefully maintain their place as strong split characters, make them more viable 8v8, and give them a justifiable role whilst preventing them from being restricted purely to gimmicks.

Kaida the Heartless · Nov 28, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

First step to remove the instagibbery:

If it follows a lead attack...
If it follows an offhand attack...

So, instead of making the chain automatically fail for missing the offhand, the dual with just do less damage since it wouldn't meet the "if it follows an offhand attack" mod. Chains that succeed are stronger than ones that miss an attack or two. Now the sin isn't useless for a minute after a failed attack. Sins are entirely useless against this retarded blockweb that is gvg today.

Step 2 to remove instagibbery:

Add more armor/evasion skills.

Currently:
Warriors have max armor.
Dervishes have 70 AL but enchantments to make up for it.
Assassins have 70 AL and WASD.

Instead, give the assassin some more skills that allow them to avoid damage so they can compete in the frontline. Now the assassin will be able to stay around the warriors and dervishes without totally being murdered.

Fixed.

Also, JR's idea works, but then RC is going to become the next LoD?

JR · Nov 28, 2007, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

]
Also, JR's idea works, but then RC is going to become the next LoD?

I can live with that. It's a choice, and you can try and shut down the RC if you really want.

Kaida the Heartless · Nov 28, 2007, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Good point. I wouldn't mind some skill shake ups anyways.

pah01 · Nov 28, 2007, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

They should be condition based pressure, with strong methods of applying most of the conditions in the game. Spreading poison, bleeding, dazed, deep wound, cracked armor... and so on. They would rely less on combos, and have more utility available.
Their armor should be increased so they are more viable in the frontline, with their direct combo based damage reduced, and base weapon damage increased slightly.
Instead of Shadow Stepping they should be highly mobile by more normal means, such as skills like Dash.

This would hopefully maintain their place as strong split characters, make them more viable 8v8, and give them a justifiable role whilst preventing them from being restricted purely to gimmicks.

On thinking about this - giving assasins the option of easily applying conditions on split would make them quite strong.

IMO The methods used for applying deep wound and daze should not be available on button mash because that would still leave them as instagib characters on a skirmish against casters.

The things that interests me at the moment are two things.

1. How do we convince Izzy that such a route that is better for the game? I mean the man must understand that the current role of the sin is just asking to die a violent death.

2. How would you nerf instagib combos JR? Adrenaline on Money skills?

Joe

wuzzman · Nov 28, 2007, 06:13 AM // 06:13

It would be funny if sins become close range rangers with daggers. Instead of spamming a chain of skills, they just hit one and tab. The only thing making assassin survivability low is the amount of skills it take to kill someone, generally its 4-5. Even if you leave out rez, you still need 1 ultility skill that allows you to kill non-idiots, 1 elite skill so you can kill some who doesn't have the skills of a r900 guild, and that just leaves 1 slot for a flimsy shadow arts self heal. I don't see how people will like a melee ranger, it may be interesting, but given that much pressure to someone who doesn't even need an elite for that pressure to work isn't going to be accepted well.

JR · Nov 28, 2007, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

IMO The methods used for applying deep wound and daze should not be available on button mash

Indeed. Dazed or deep wound application would be fairly costly and balanced by cooldown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

because that would still leave them as instagib characters on a skirmish against casters.

Just being able to apply a deep would does not make you an instagib character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

1. How do we convince Izzy that such a route that is better for the game? I mean the man must understand that the current role of the sin is just asking to die a violent death.

I pray every night that Izzy wakes up and realizes Assassins in their current form are simply detrimental to the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

2. How would you nerf instagib combos JR? Adrenaline on Money skills?

Lower combo damage considerably and bring up base weapon damage a touch, to bring them more in line with Warriors. Reduce combos to 2/3 abilities max, and improve their utility/defense skills such as caltrops, blinding powder etc.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 28, 2007, 06:50 AM // 06:50

The only real insta-gib combos assassins have are 5+ skills, usually used under an IAS. If you want to nerf them, you need to make the dual attacks costly enough that you can't put two duals into a single combo. Increasing dual cost and decreasing the instant-gain from the Lotus strikes would accomplish this. Sins already have excellent energy management when they're autoattacking regularly, and shouldn't need the Lotus strikes in their current form.

Otherwise, I agree with JR about melee condition spreading and disruption being a good role for them.

pah01 · Nov 28, 2007, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Indeed. Dazed or deep wound application would be fairly costly and balanced by cooldown.

Just being able to apply a deep would does not make you an instagib character.

I pray every night that Izzy wakes up and realizes Assassins in their current form are simply detrimental to the game.

Lower combo damage considerably and bring up base weapon damage a touch, to bring them more in line with Warriors. Reduce combos to 2/3 abilities max, and improve their utility/defense skills such as caltrops, blinding powder etc.

I just went on the quote of strong methods of applying daze/deepwound etc, if you get dazed on a caster one on one with a sin he may very well end up very dead. With the other conditions going on as well - i got a nasty picture coming out of that line was all.

I might consider praying too

ensoriki · Nov 28, 2007, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Edit: WHOLE POST

J-R make them in the lines of warriors? Sillyness =P

Warrior/Mesmer (dash of ranger) Hybrid!

Ignore the daggers for a second >.>
Needs more Deadly/Shadow arts buffs, that come right after the Deadly paradox nerf.
Then after those are buffed, A-net can then see how to balance em in between, instead of nerfing daggers and then BAM, sin has nothing to do for 4 months >.>

Funny how an agile character, has so little speed buffs.

Dash,Dark escape....ummm...urr >.>...uhhh.

Shuuda · Nov 28, 2007, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Thinking on what JR said, maybe Shadow stepping could become running stances that give the bonus when they end/ activiate/ you hit a foe. For example:

Return - All adjacent foe a crippled for xx seconds, and you move 33% faster for xx seconds.

Death's Charge - You move 33% faster for xx seconds, when this stance ends you gain xx - xxx health if there is a foe in the area.

Beguiling Haze - you move 33% faster for xx seconds, the next foe you hit is dazed for x - xx seconds. (The stance won't end when you hit them like enraged does)

They can be buffed in other ways to compensate for the loss of imba steps, like Haze being 10e or longer daze.

/end my retard idea.

shoogi · Nov 28, 2007, 01:29 PM // 13:29

I would personally like assassins to be more special, and more assassin like. Assassins aren't meant to be frontline, and shouldn't be. Assassins should be stealthy killers, that are useless in an open fight. It seems that anet did mean assassins to be like that, but several mistakes were done that I'd like to see reworked.

a. Shadow Stepping- this mechanic is broken, unfair, imbalanced, and any other such word you can think of. A teleport contradicts the basics of this game. Alright, you wanted assassins to have a special mechanic, but this one is completely stupid. For those of you who say that removing shadow stepping is too drastic, I can only say that Anet are capable of drastic changes and have done some in the past (such as the removal of evade and the 25.8.2005 spirit nerf).
There are many different possiblities for a new assassin mechanic, I personally thought of an invisibility mechanic, though such thing will require huge balancing (nearby/area enemies detect you automatically, counter skills in other professions, etc)

b. Attack Combos. I was never a great fan of this mechanic. When you picture assassins, you don't imagine some guy just randomly stabbing many times, you imagine a single, swift, fatal blow. I would like assassins to launch a few powerful attacks, and not a long combo. Attack skill chains are already used by warriors, and dervs already do steady dps. Assassins should be different. I'm not saying that Lead, Offhand and Dual attacks should be completely removed, but shorter combos should be encouraged. Combinations of 5-6 skills as we see on most assassins are stupid and don't allow any room for utility, as stated before.