Curse

Delillo · Dec 08, 2007, 06:37 AM // 06:37

I'm currently anticipating the release of Warhammer Online and am spending entirely too much time in their forums discussing class balance and game mechanics. This thread is not to discuss or debate the differences or merits of Guild Wars and Warhammer, but to discuss what lessons can be drawn from Guild Wars and brought to bear in other games even if they have somewhat different mechanics.

Just a few examples:

Kiting
Pressure Builds
Spike Builds
The surprising power of snares, speed increases, and knockdowns.

What skills and tactics do you think players of conventional MMOs will over-value and under-value in PvP that Guild Wars players will appreciate better?

Just as an example, I was looking at a skill from a shaman which is a healer/utility class. The skill provided a 50% speed increase for 8 seconds to his group. Using Guild Wars standards this would be a very powerful skill, probably elite. I asserted that such a skill could be "class-defining" and was greeted with a number of yawns. Obviously this skill would be considered great or not based upon other skills available to other classes. As far as I know, this is the only group based movement buff in the game. There is no "bard" class with an "always on" movement buff.

Another example, there is a Dwarf class called a Hammerer which has a number of knockdown abilities. One KD skill doesn't even seem to be conditional. My immediate reaction to the class's skillset is that it is radically overpowered, but someone who hasn't played GW might not appreciate how great even a two second knockdown can be.

Riotgear · Dec 08, 2007, 07:27 AM // 07:27

The things GW really got right:
- The high costs and readily-available counters to caster spike instagibs
- The lack of game-ruining invisibility, especially ganks from stealth
- The strong emphasis on proactive defense instead of reactive healing
- Readily-available self-heals on all classes that allow more laid-back forms of PvP to still have characters that function well independently
- PvP characters.

Quote:

The skill provided a 50% speed increase for 8 seconds to his group. Using Guild Wars standards this would be a very powerful skill, probably elite.

Most MMOs have bad PvP that is filled with really broken stuff that promotes instagib spikes or mindless training above all else.

GW's debuffs and protective abilities are a lot stronger than most MMOs, so the standards can change.

Delillo · Dec 08, 2007, 08:06 AM // 08:06

I think its pretty safe to say that GW did many, many things right. Many of which future MMOs like Warhammer are taking note of and many which they are ignoring.

Combat mechanics like to-hit rolls, block and parry rates, and spell resists make GW vets snort in dirision. Rightly so.

But what I'm looking for in this thread is not how future games should be designed better in terms of combat mechanics, but rather what GW players would take away from their experience in GW and apply to how they play other games.

Genova · Dec 08, 2007, 08:34 AM // 08:34

You are mistaken, it is the other way around. Guild Wars has such a learning curve that it can really take a long time to understand the professions, their interactions, the impact of updates on the metagame, how to play as a team, how to build a team, how to make your opponent react like you want to him to do, etc... All you can do is take from your other gaming experiences and try your best at this game because, in all honesty, all other games are a lot more simple. Or to put it another way, you need a wider range of gaming skills (battlefield awareness, reflexes, aiming, foresight/anticipation, strategy/tactics, understanding of a metagame, micro-management, radar vision, etc...) to succede at Guild Wars. Other games which require less overall skills but are more specific to certain areas. FPS for aiming, teamplay, RTS for strategy/micro, and so on... That's how I feel about it.

Zuranthium · Dec 08, 2007, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Kiting and snares were things that I already knew were incredibly important before playing Guild Wars. Thank you EVERQUEST.

~Z

Div · Dec 08, 2007, 11:10 AM // 11:10

The only problem is, most other "PvP" in other MMORPGs is horrible. Not only are skills even more insanely unbalanced than in GW (after all, they need to cater to PvE whiners who hate skill changes because it messes up their builds), but also the PvP quality is much lower. A skill that can cause chain KDs to pressure a target is not going to be nearly as game-breaking. Think about the times you RA or AB. The quality of play is so low that you don't see kiting, team pressure, etc. being applied, and that's how it is with most other games.

Riotgear · Dec 08, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

The only problem is, most other "PvP" in other MMORPGs is horrible. Not only are skills even more insanely unbalanced than in GW (after all, they need to cater to PvE whiners who hate skill changes because it messes up their builds), but also the PvP quality is much lower.

It's not so much that, it's that the games are built around monsters that are characteristically different than players. Typically, the monsters have more health, come in larger numbers, hit hard, and mitigating them is primarily based on exploiting aggro mechanics.

In general, players are expected to be able to wipe out opposition that is significantly more resilient than players are, and potentially more numerous. Particularly bad is the presence of "crowd control" abilities specifically designed to remove an opponent from the fight completely.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 08, 2007, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Assuming that whatever other game has a good PvP base and decent mechanics:

Movement control is key. In any game with multiple points of importance, you want to be able to either outrun or control your opponent's movement, giving you all the advantages.

Anything that feasibly takes characters out of the game for almost any amount of time is going to be extremely powerful. See the power of KDs and blackout (when it was actually usable).

Communication is the most important thing a team can have. Every decision that every member of the team makes have to be made off of the available knowledge of what is going on in the game, and therefore, informed decisions can only be made if every team member if effectively communicating as much about the game as possible.

The Meth · Dec 08, 2007, 06:19 PM // 18:19

I would say the defining points of guildwars pvp is:

An absolute limit of skills you can use at once (8)
A level playing field where there isn't 'elite' armor or items that give advantage to those who have played for longer.
The ease of experimenting with new builds and classes.
No potion-type items that can be hoarded and chugged to make up for sloppy playing (consumables should never make it to pvp)
Very little randomness- all attacks have 100% hit chance unless affected by outside source, all spells have 100% hit chance.
lvl 20 pvp characters who can be made on the spot.
primary/secondary class combinations opening up a great deal of diversity.
Defense being based primarily on protection rather then healing, forcing the defense to be proactive and the offense to counter (instead of just overpowering with extreme damage)

suiraCLAW · Dec 08, 2007, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

An absolute limit of skills you can use at once (8)
A level playing field where there isn't 'elite' armor or items that give advantage to those who have played for longer.
The ease of experimenting with new builds and classes.
No potion-type items that can be hoarded and chugged to make up for sloppy playing (consumables should never make it to pvp)
Very little randomness- all attacks have 100% hit chance unless affected by outside source, all spells have 100% hit chance.
lvl 20 pvp characters who can be made on the spot.
primary/secondary class combinations opening up a great deal of diversity.
Defense being based primarily on protection rather then healing, forcing the defense to be proactive and the offense to counter (instead of just overpowering with extreme damage)

It's more than that.
Other things:
- focus on teamplay
- focus on communication
- different modes with other objectives
- skill based mechanics (but not skill based spells, sadly)
- low damage of spells compared to the max health of people
- spells with multiple effects

but also:
- insane learning curve
- some forms of elitism among players

Ec]-[oMaN · Dec 08, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Warhammer will just be another mmo with pvp that consists of a cluster ****, have you ever played lineage2 castle battles? Large amounts of players grouped up all buffing,healing, and doing dmg at insane amounts with no real skill involved, don't think I even need to head over to their site and look at the game, one trailer with a skillbar of 20+skills gave that away fast. How they going to balanced PvP gameplay with a skill bar that size and variables+classes.
GW takes a simple amount of skills you can you use on your bar, some do certain things dmg, others provide a way to make that dmg happen but all have to be used at the correct moment, more often than not simplistic provides much better gameplay.

wuzzman · Dec 08, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

I never seen a game that emphasises so much at once as Guild Wars. From snares, to shutdown(real shutdown), everything is important in one way or another. But most MMorpg's are RA quality at their best which is really sad.

I wouldn't say guild wars has an insane learning curve. Insane expectations is more like it. To be good your expected to be willing to communicate, synchronize your builds, and know exactly your role is inside and out. The difficulty in that is really the players you fight against rather then the brain powered require just to consider all that. The jump from unorganized pvp to organized pvp is large only because players prefer to be unorganized, and the more you shift them into organized section the harder they fight back with you insisting that games should have as little thought as possible. HA and GvG are dieing but AB and RA will always have a large player base.

Syntonic · Dec 08, 2007, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

It's more than that.
Other things:
- focus on teamplay
- focus on communication
- different modes with other objectives
- skill based mechanics (but not skill based spells, sadly)
- low damage of spells compared to the max health of people
- spells with multiple effects

but also:
- insane learning curve
- some forms of elitism among players

I think the guy you quoted had it right. It's definitely why PVP on Guild Wars is vastly superior than most other MMOGs since it's not about have and have nots. In other mmogs, there are focuses on communication and team play. It may not be as involved as Guild Wars in PvP but I'd imagine it's still present though I do agree with your later points except the form of elitism among players. Elitism isn't solely related with Guild Wars. Even PnP has their forms of min/maxers and elitists.

Riotgear · Dec 08, 2007, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

don't think I even need to head over to their site and look at the game, one trailer with a skillbar of 20+skills gave that away fast. How they going to balanced PvP gameplay with a skill bar that size and variables+classes.

Guild Wars' level of bar compression and lack of redundancy is rather insane by MMO standards. Most MMOs have comparable functionality per-character but it's divided up into separate uses. Casters for example usually have several skills that vary in time, power, and efficiency, giving them a bit more precision in what they do, but not necessarily more power.

suiraCLAW · Dec 09, 2007, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

I think the guy you quoted had it right. It's definitely why PVP on Guild Wars is vastly superior than most other MMOGs since it's not about have and have nots. In other mmogs, there are focuses on communication and team play. It may not be as involved as Guild Wars in PvP but I'd imagine it's still present though I do agree with your later points except the form of elitism among players. Elitism isn't solely related with Guild Wars. Even PnP has their forms of min/maxers and elitists.

I could read other games in the definition The Meth gave (dofus arena in particular, which has all points except secondary class system) and I thus found that his definition of GW PvP wasn't complete.

shoogi · Dec 09, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

The lessons that other MMOs should take from gw pvp are-
1. Most MMOs don't offer more than 1v1 duels and hundreds vs hundreds battles, both are pretty sucky. GW = teamplay. No teamplay = fail.
2. Pvp characters- imo the most genius aspect of GW. All other online rpg's (most notably diablo 2) are something like 20% how you play and 80% what items you have. In GW, everybody has the maximal level, everybody has the best items. It's all about how you play. That's PURE pvp.
3. Limit of 8 skills- "Look, in our WoW we can use ALL SKILLS IN TEH GAME!!11 8 skills = suck and boring! YOU CAN'T MAKE A PERFECT BUILD THAT CAN BEAT ANYTHING WITH ONLY 8 SKILLS!! But more than that, we can JUMP and SWIM, which means our game is better!!111". That says it all.

Riotgear · Dec 09, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

3. Limit of 8 skills- "Look, in our WoW we can use ALL SKILLS IN TEH GAME!!11 8 skills = suck and boring! YOU CAN'T MAKE A PERFECT BUILD THAT CAN BEAT ANYTHING WITH ONLY 8 SKILLS!! But more than that, we can JUMP and SWIM, which means our game is better!!111". That says it all.

As I said, there isn't a whole lot more dimension you get with those huge selections of skills. A fire mage in WoW isn't a hell of a lot more versatile than a fire ele in GW, except they get p-block for free.

Made In Ascalon · Dec 10, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

As I said, there isn't a whole lot more dimension you get with those huge selections of skills. A fire mage in WoW isn't a hell of a lot more versatile than a fire ele in GW, except they get p-block for free.

I agree with this, but mostly because classes in WoW are incredibly simplistic and boring. It seems like they have a huge selection of skills at their disposal, but once they fully invest talent points most of them become useless unless they offer some crucial form of utility. Not to mention, some abilities plain suck and stop scaling past a certain point, making it so that you pretty much have to spam the same 2-3 skills over and over again to succeed.

So, fire mages fulfill the same role of a nuking elementalist with absolutely no options for different ways of accomplishing said role other than spamming fireball. It gets really damn boring.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 10, 2007, 01:25 AM // 01:25

The thing about GW isn't so much the limit of 8 skills per bar, but the skills are very well designed compared to other games. I mean, everyone bitches about how we need more really good, versatile skills, but if you take a look at the GW skill lists compared to other games, it's obvious that there are a ton of well designed things out there, and more importantly, that there are a lot of really good build templates out there. Most importantly, you see that a lot of the skills are really designed with PvP in mind, focusing entirely on that aspect.

Combine that with much better mechanics PvP-wise than any other game, emphasizing movement control and coordinating team tactics, and you get a really solid base for a PvP game. ANet might have messed up a lot of things along the way, but it's still fairly amazing how good of a job they've done. Hitting the correct balance between disruption, offense, and defense while maintaining multiple viable strategies is hard, and they've gotten that quite a bit.

Genova · Dec 10, 2007, 10:14 AM // 10:14

The only real problem Guild Wars has is scaling on different formats. It is amazing how different environments like TA, HA, etc... create a totally different skill interaction because of maps, objectives and number of players. It sure adds a lot more diversity and stuff to do when you can't GvG (or don't want to), but the game is even more difficult to balance. A single skill might be ok on one bar, broken on several and absurdly overpowered when a team is designed around it.

While the design is really good overall, the options are severly limited by the potential synergy certain skills have, it's a blessing and a curse. The only way I could see some skills be used more is if there was a mean to explicitely prevent some combos. Attributes points, primary professions and status (can't use two elites for example) don't work at all : any good skill is going to be abused.

The other thing I'd like to mention is the over reliance on monks. While we all understand why they are good for the game, I would like to see more different setups for backlines (that's too bad ritualists' spirits don't make for interesting games). I would even like to see some games played with only skirmish characters (happens sometimes), where you can clearly see how good a team is.

Last, there is too much mandatory skills... I don't mean to nerf good skills, but it creates a stale environment where you need to bring a fair amount of counters to said skills, because if you don't, you lose. I am not sure what is the correct answer to this : we don't want to play rock-paper-scissors, but the profession's design is based on it. While it promotes (or forces) teamplay, I wonder what the game would look like if each profession had usable built-in anti-counters (like assassin's remedy, distorsion, avatar of dwayna, etc...).

Off-topic. I find that what makes guild wars a difficult game to learn is a combination of : switching targets quickly and efficiently, keeping track of what your teammates and the opponent are doing, and being good at what you do best (it's most anticipation and timing). If most players mastered these basic skills, the level of play in RA would be a lot higher. That's the fact of not being able to do this consistently which makes the difference between a player who can progress and one who can't.