Curse

Iotan · Dec 10, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Categorizing a map as a "split map" or an "8v8 map" is a pretty superficial reading of a map. I don't think of meditation as an 8v8 map at all because it is far too much a flagging map to be seen as anything else really. And the way tha burning is considered an 8v8 map is unlike the manner in which Imperial can be considered an 8v8 map, etc.

Obviously having only 2 labels for GvG maps is a simplification or superficial reading of a map but for the most part it's a good way to categorize them. Anything more narrow and you're pretty much going to have to list them by name (except the cata maps).

I see meditation as a mobile 8v8 map. Other than the path through the miasma it's pretty easy for a monk at the top flagstand to heal someone who's just about anywhere. Meditation also seems very similar to Wurms not just because there are 2 stands but because the focus points in the map are fairly close to each other and you have forever to respond to a split (ie. if someone is going to threaten your flagger/cap shrine you see it happen a while before it's actually completed).

Aera · Dec 10, 2007, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Meditation is kind of meh. Especially, because quite often, both flagrunners carrying a flag are at the top, trying to cap the 'fireball shrine'.

And because obviously neither is going to drop the flag, it results in spamming Heal Party. It does get fun on the other hand, when more people get up there and start bashing each other.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 10, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

The annoying thing about Meditation is that it's so easy for monks to support the other flagstand, which can makes splits a little less interesting as they can almost always count on more monk support from the other team if you're splitting top/bottom.

Div · Dec 10, 2007, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Although I can see some merit in that line of thought, I don't like building for a specific map. Knowing the team you'll fight and knowing you'll play on Burning, for example, doesn't test Guilds' ability to 8v8 in comparison to testing how well they Split so much as it tests their ability to know what the other guild tends to run on that map and build against it. If maps were randomized, Obs Mode would still be enough reason for Guilds to have plenty of different builds, or least build variations, so they can switch between matches and don't get specced against.

I don't really like the idea of promoting strict 8v8 in the first place. Fluid, large-scale map movement should always be an option in GvG and I would suggest HA for people who dislike having to play like that...

Only through diversity of maps and knowledge of the opponent beforehand will it promote guilds to learn more than one build. If all the maps were completely random, a guild can be a one build wonder and still win it. But if the map and guild are known beforehand, one can beat the one build wonder by taking advantage of its weaknesses on that specific map.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 10, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Only through diversity of maps and knowledge of the opponent beforehand will it promote guilds to learn more than one build. If all the maps were completely random, a guild can be a one build wonder and still win it. But if the map and guild are known beforehand, one can beat the one build wonder by taking advantage of its weaknesses on that specific map.

Of course, having randomized maps just promotes people that can play balanced builds that can adjust to a variety of situations, while one-build wonders are reduced to winning and losing randomly, obviously sub-optimal in tournament settings where every loss counts.

Seamus Finn · Dec 11, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

If all the maps were completely random, a guild can be a one build wonder and still win it.

I am pretty sure 3 of the last 5 Monthlies have been won by guilds running one build. I am really not getting this hating on "one build wonder guilds." Most of the "respected" guilds of the past ran basically one build and modded as necessary, and unless hand is your idea of what a good guild is, I am not finding a great example of the multi-build guilds of doom.

Greedy Gus · Dec 11, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Only through diversity of maps and knowledge of the opponent beforehand will it promote guilds to learn more than one build. If all the maps were completely random, a guild can be a one build wonder and still win it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I am really not getting this hating on "one build wonder guilds."

Well, I think there's a bit of ambiguity in terminology and intent in a lot of the previous posts in this thread. There is a big difference between two types of "one build wonders".

Consider a guild playing essentially one build all the time on favorable maps, and having to run something else on the maps where their strategy is destroyed (the classic cases of very heavy split or 8v8 strategies). They tend to get crushed on these maps that aren't good for them, either because they stick with their extreme build or they try to run something else and suck with it. This scenario is especially the case for many guilds ownzzzzing on open ladder play when they get their map a lot along with the element of surprise. It's not that big of an issue any more though, simply because knowing your opponent in the AT system is already a big deterrant to being too specialized with a specific build.

Random maps would promote a lot more guilds using primarily one build, but the main difference is that this build would likely promote flexibility in split/spike/pressure and adaptability (which many people would like to see more of) in order to be good on all maps. So in this sense (in the case of random maps), just playing one extremely balanced build well is often considered quite admirable rather than degenerate.